Best Substrate For My Tank?

[ATK!!!]

I haven't been around much for a while but in that time I have finally ordered the juwel rio 180 and I am seriously stuck as to what substrate to use... At first I was going to go for the Eco complete stuff from caribsea but now I've heard lots of good things about Colombo flora base? What I'm looking for here is a nutrient rich preferably black substrate that won't bankrupt me to use a the sole substrate for the tank. Any opinions or ideas would be really appreciated! Oh btw I am looking to really heavily plant the tank but go as low tech as possible so something that will last me a good time without a change would be an added bonus!

 

[ian]

You're gonna be looking at £100 for Florabase for a 180ltr. However, i'm a big advocate on this substrate, it's the best thing next to the ADA substrates. If you want the best for your plants from the start, you can't beat this substrate.

 

[Primous]

Organic dirt/soil! Nothing comes close! I used three bags of organic dirt in my planted tank and it literally transformed my aquarium. It cost me roughly £9 pounds for 3 bags of dirt and £20 for the fine gravel to cap the it. Before the switch I was dosing chemicals like seachem etc and like many, I couldn't find the right combination which resulted in several different types of algae but since the switch I haven't dosed any chemical because my plants have gone crazy in the dirt. I made a vid of the entire "dirting" process with a few updates included. Take a look if you're interested particularly the pre and post dirt red lotus...

*Edit* If you click through to youtube you can watch it in 720HD

 

[mishmash]

Organic dirt/soil! Nothing comes close! I used three bags of organic dirt in my planted tank and it literally transformed my aquarium. It cost me roughly £9 pounds for 3 bags of dirt and £20 for the fine gravel to cap the it. Before the switch I was dosing chemicals like seachem etc and like many, I couldn't find the right combination which resulted in several different types of algae but since the switch I haven't dosed any chemical because my plants have gone crazy in the dirt. I made a vid of the entire "dirting" process with a few updates included. Take a look if you're interested particularly the pre and post dirt red lotus...

Hey Primous, can you name the brand and package details and where you got it from ? Im not familiar with the term "organic dirt". Ive just put a 2.5cm layer of JBL aquabasis + in my tank. Is the dirt the same as this or is it something extra. Would I benefit from adding some of this dirt stuff too ? (I can take the AB+ out, put the dirt in then relayer the AB+).

Also your Dwarf Neon Rainbows are stunning !! How big are they there ? I am hoping to have a few in MY NEW SETUP And can I ask what your water parameters are and how you did your home made CO2 kit ? It looks like you are getting good CO2 levels in there. Very nice.

I will be putting Tesco lightweight cat litter as a topping substrate.

To the OP. It is worth looking at these options rather than going for the incredibly expensive "complete" substrates. Good luck and dont forget to take pics and let us know what you opt for.

 

[ATK!!!]

£100!?!!?!? Wow, thats not going to be an option then sadly... What's the next best thing (under £50 ) I would rather buy a ready made substrate than use cat litter or the likes, but if that really is the best option then I could use it??

 

[Primous]

Organic dirt is dirt without the additives, additives which you don't want in an aquarium setup. I use "Miracle Grow organic choice" which is free of the unnecessary extras. I made the switch after reading Tom Barr and Diane Walstead work and also because when you break it down scientifically, the "complete" substrates are essentially sand/gravel laced with additives which run out after a short space of time (6-12 months according to the guys over at theplantedtank and walstead) and therefore needs to be replaced or supplemented.

With soil besides being what the plant would be in naturally, the fish poop/mulm is pulled into the soil broken down and recharges it constantly. Replicating what happens in the natural habitat. Therefore you don't need to add anything lol I had a bunch of seachem products like "iron, potassium, florish etc etc and after dirting I realized that buying all those products was like throwing money down the drain and using them a complete waste of time because I haven't used them since. So in short yes, dirt in my opinion would be the best choice you ever made if you're going the planted tank route. Second to none and dirt cheap too lol. A few points if you decided to use it. Don't use it with the additive laced thing you're using now. Soak it overnight or for at least six hours and remove the floaty stuff that rises to the surface. You'd need a depth of about 1.5 inches capped with a 1.5 cap of fine gravel.

When it comes to the diy co2 the single most important thing is finding a recipe that gives you a consistent co2 production. Anything less and your co2 levels will fluctuate. And Fluctuating co2 is/has been the death of many planted aquariums because it's a fertile breeding ground for several types of algae like bba. My recipe: Organic white sugar, brewers yeast, brewers yeast nurishment, and one tea spoon of molasses. But My suggestion is to experiment or to buy a pressurized set up which is much simpler.

My neons are crazy and breed at least once a day. they're about 3 inches in size. My ph is between 7-8.


This is what dirt did to my aquarium 2 months after. Check out the lotus and you'll see why I dirt aquariums is something I'm happy to help with lol

 

[ATK!!!]

Where do you get your dirt from exactly? And by dirt, are you referring to compost soil or a clay like substance? I've heard of a lot of people using John Innes no.3 (the soil) as a substrate when doing the waltstad method but I hadnt really considered using it myself.. If I'm honest, I'd much rather use a plant substrate similar to Colombo flora base or other clay like substrate.

Also whilst I remember, I am NOT using any form of CO2 for this setup as I will be going very low tech, even the lighting is going to be subdued by floating plants.

Edit: Here's a link showing the exact plans for the tank- Super low tech Juwel rio 180

 

[Primous]

No, not compost or clay. Just 100% organic "soil" such as Miracle grow

When it comes to "plant substrate" I must stress the point that these things are essentially gravel laced with additives which run out within 6-12 months. Which means you'll have to replace it or buy something to give it a boost of some type. I myself was hesitant to begin with. most of us in this hobby start out trusting particular brands and such. But when you think about it what would you plant a regular house plant in the hope that it does well stones or soil?

*Edit*

I just read your setup and a few pointers if I may. You can get apistos which are peaceful like Borellii. Floating plants wont really lessen the impact of two long juwel t5's so I'd suggest a plastic sheet of some type. And out of every substrate setup out there, soil requires the less amount of maintenance.

 

[ATK!!!]

Thanks for the pointers, I was thinking the same about the lighting, I'll just have to find some thats the right opacity I guess. Do you think that I could get away with putting black sand over the soil to cap it, or would it seep through over time? I really dont want gravel as the top layer of substrate. Apart from that, it looks like a great idea! Here's some of the John innes i was talking about:

It seems to be similar to the stuff you were talking about and I've heard about other using this....

Anyone else have any opinions on this? It'd be nice to clarify that this is the best idea as I want to get this right first time!

 

[ian]

John Innnes no3 is fine, it will need capping.


The Japanese soils do work out expensive, florabase is one of the cheaper oneson the market, as well. The good thing about florabase is that it doesn't need topping as the soil has been baked. The other good thing about the baked Japanese soils is that they're high CEC, so it will soak up extra nutrients and disperse them over time. Tom Barr has also done some work on these kinds of substrates and even though they do loose the 'trace' after a year or so, they remain high CEC. He's using some 5 year old ADA baked soils in one of his show tanks at the moment. These soils substrates are used by aquascapers and planted tank keepers for a good reason.

 

[ATK!!!]

So sand is ok to cap with? If so, how much do you think I would need of the soil and the sand?

 

[Primous]

I'm not familiar with that particular brand but if it's 100% organic then you're good to go. Topping with sand is fine.

Anyone else have any opinions on this? It'd be nice to clarify that this is the best idea as I want to get this right first time!

I just read through your juwel 180 post again and I think there is perhaps some things you've overlooked. Whichever substrate you go for you're going to need a good balance to go 3-6 months without a water change. Your stocking even with "A few less tetras" as you say in that other thread will still yield roughly 5-7ppm on nitrate within a week. And at 7ppm a weekly your nitrates will be at a toxic level to your stock withing 5 weeks.

Another thing is your ph. While I don't know your exact parameters I know that ph in an aquarium can change within a week. So by the time you come around to doing a water change (which after 3-6 months would have to be large) the ph of thew water you'd be adding to the aquarium aquarium could be vastly different killing fish and damaging plants. Huge fluctuations with GH and KH are also not recommended. There are a couple of other things but in short, to go 3-6 months without a water change you're going to have to make balancing your aquarium your main focus.

 

[ATK!!!]

I get what you're saying there, since making that post I have decided that the stocking will be considerably smaller than what I said then, perhaps 20 shoaling fish, 1 bristlenose and a group of around 10 shrimp with some Nerite snails. Also about the nitrates.... Aren't they fine to have into the hundreds (ppm)? With what your saying, that'd be only 40-50ppm which is pretty normal really and wouldn't be harmful to the fish at all?!?! I do agree with your statement about the water parameters though, I'll be trickling the water in across a whole day or so to negotiate some of the changes during a water change, but the rest is just balancing as you say. Hopefully some people who have done this sort of thing before could give some advice later...

 

[Primous]

Nitrate at 40-50ppm isn't normal. Nitrate above 50ppm will make your fish sick/kill them! Bristle nose plec is one of the top waste producers and your stocking as it stands is in my opinion way too much for what your attempting to do. I'd reduce the number of tetras from 20 to 7-10 depending on their size. Swap the nerite for an apple snail because nerites litter the aquarium with eggs.

There are guys that have done this. More than a few actually on another forum I'm a member of. I have also seen aquariums with no filter at all that flourish it's just the balance that determines all of the above.

 

[ian]

Nitrates are fine @ 50ppm in a planted tank. Again Tom Barr did some work on Nitrate levels and its effects on fish.

have a read here about half of the way down Tom chips in...

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/336512-do-you-struggle-with-tapwater-nitrates/page__st__20__gopid__2800235&#entry2800235

ps i keeps my tanks at around 50ppm.