Bad For Cycled Aquariums?

[mark4785]

My aquarium water PH has a tendancy to fluctuate every 2-3 days after water changes. On the day of the water change the PH level is seemingly approaching 8.0 so I conduct a 20% water change with water that has a PH level of 7.4. This water change brings the PH level back down to 7.4.

In my opinion, a PH of 7.4 is the safest level to reach when you have German Blue Rams stocked in the aquarium. They prefer a PH level between 5.5 and 7.0 and when the water PH is rising to 8.0 they have a tendancy to hitch themselves on the surrounding decor as though the water is irritating their skin.

I've tried to resolve the PH fluctuations by placing bog wood in the aquarium. This apparently encourages acidic water with a PH of around 6.5 which is more suitable for the Rams. It has been in the water for several days now and it has had no effect on the PH.

Given this, I have invested in a PH buffer named Seachem 'Neutral Regulator' which maintains a PH level of 7.0. It also claims to remove ammonia, chlorine and chloramine. I have a few questions about this product outlined below.


1. Given that a PH of 7.0 is neutral, if, theoretically, the PH fluctuated below and above this level to produce acidic and alkaline water in a short space of time, would this be more stressful to the Rams than a PH fluctuation of slight alkalinity to extreme alkalinity as described above?

2. The product claims to remove ammonia. Does it remove both ammonia and ammonium or does it simply convert ammonia to ammonium? I'm concerned that if it removes the ammonia, the beneficial bacteria I have will starve to some degree.

This is the Seachem product.

As always, I welcome others' input!

Mark.

 

[drobbyb]

The problem with buffers is that they act very fast, too fast to add directly to the tank. If your tap water is pH 7.4 and it rises to pH 8.0 then you have something in your tank driving it up. Simply removing whatever is causing this will give you a pH that is closer to your tap's and you won't have to spend any money on buffering chemicals.

The only chemicals you should ever have to add to your tank is water conditioner and meds if you need them.

 

[mark4785]

The problem with buffers is that they act very fast, too fast to add directly to the tank. If your tap water is pH 7.4 and it rises to pH 8.0 then you have something in your tank driving it up. Simply removing whatever is causing this will give you a pH that is closer to your tap's and you won't have to spend any money on buffering chemicals.

The only chemicals you should ever have to add to your tank is water conditioner and meds if you need them.

Hey,

There's nothing in the aquarium driving it up other than the slow removal of c02. I've been told tap water contains more c02 and over time this depletes when in the aquarium.

 

[PDSimon]

co2 doesn't alter it by 5-6 degrees though... not from the tap

 

[Katty]

Actually on the rising thing, it may not be something in the tank. Someone in the area explained to me that something about our city's water coming from wells devoid of oxygen makes the pH go up after being agitated around in something like a fish tank. I'm not 100% sure on that, but it makes more sense rather than a single item doing it as it happens in all of my tanks regardless of the different things that are in them. Plus our city adds sodium hydroxide to the water which brings up the pH, period.

Well, unless you have a mountain of seashells in there or something...

Edit: Also you can E-mail or call Seachem about the ammonia/ammonium thing, I'm sure they'd be able to tell you

 

[mark4785]

Actually on the rising thing, it may not be something in the tank. Someone in the area explained to me that something about our city's water coming from wells devoid of oxygen makes the pH go up after being agitated around in something like a fish tank. I'm not 100% sure on that, but it makes more sense rather than a single item doing it as it happens in all of my tanks regardless of the different things that are in them. Plus our city adds sodium hydroxide to the water which brings up the pH, period.

Maybe I should call the water company up and ask if they do something similar to what you have described.

I'm very sure theres nothing in there raising the PH other than the gases in the water. There is evidence of this because a while back I filled 2 beakers up, one containing 02 and the other 02 and the tank substrate (which I thought was raising the PH despite being told it was 'PH neutral' by the manufacturer). Over 2-3 days, both water samples achieved a PH of 8.0, up from 7.4.

This thread is for the purpose of discussing the suitability of the Seachem product primarily. Any answers to the questions outlined in post one would be appreciated.

Mark.

 

[OldMan47]

I have run CO2 in my tanks for plants and it moves the pH by a whole number. In my case the water starts at 7.8 and when the CO2 has been on a while it will drop all the way to 6.8. The exact opposite happens when you release the water from the pressure it has been under. Gasses are released by the water into the atmosphere. It not only affects pH but is the reason you almost always see bubbles form on things in a newly set up tank. Actually a pH change caused by gasses seems to not affect the fish at all. My fish went through that daily cycle of pH for quite a long time before I decided to go to an El Natural setup instead for my plants. The fish just ignored the whole process because much the same thing happens with sunrise and sunset in a natural water body.

 

[mark4785]

I have run CO2 in my tanks for plants and it moves the pH by a whole number. In my case the water starts at 7.8 and when the CO2 has been on a while it will drop all the way to 6.8. The exact opposite happens when you release the water from the pressure it has been under. Gasses are released by the water into the atmosphere. It not only affects pH but is the reason you almost always see bubbles form on things in a newly set up tank. Actually a pH change caused by gasses seems to not affect the fish at all. My fish went through that daily cycle of pH for quite a long time before I decided to go to an El Natural setup instead for my plants. The fish just ignored the whole process because much the same thing happens with sunrise and sunset in a natural water body.

Thanks for that OldMan47.

I know that most fish won't mind PH fluctuations but I'm in a situation where my water PH value is slightly out of the acceptable PH range expected to keep the fish I have in my tank. So not only does a PH fluctuation happen when the c02 leaves, it also pushes the PH up to a level that should be avoided if you have a tank stocked with fish that like soft slightly/moderate acidic water.

Seeing as the bog wood hasn't lowered my PH (maybe i'm being impatient) I turned to the PH buffer. But I was looking to see if anybody else has used it and what luck they've had with it.

Mark.

 

[OldMan47]

I have used pH buffers in the past, before I figured out that the pH is really not the issue with fish. The fish with a reputation for liking a low pH are really fish that like water low in minerals. When I add a pH buffer to my high pH water it does not reduce the mineral content, it adds the minerals that buffer the water. That means that the fish are worse off than if I had not used it. The whole idea of pH stress is really backward. One thing that has been easy to test since I was a child, let's not say how long ago, is the pH of a liquid. It became the common measure of water for fish, along with the temperature. Temperatures are easily controlled using a modern heater so that leaves pH to fuss with. Unfortunately, there was little science behind the drive for a particular pH and many products that will indeed move the pH were invented for fish tanks. As we have started to understand what is going on, it has been recognized that the mineral content of water is the thing that is truly important, not the pH. I keep fish like my Corydoras hastatus in excellent health in my tank but have a pH of about 7.8. Those guys come from water with a much lower pH but they thrive in my tank because I dilute my high pH water with pure water. The pH really does not move when I do that but the mineral content drops way down.
I have a link to a thorough discussion of pH vs hardness in my signature area. See especially the discussion by Bignose in post #20 of that thread for some insight.

 

[Assaye]

pH will fluctuate as dissolved gasses gas off. Aerate the water used for water changes for at least a day (ideally more) before the water change and you should see the pH becoming more stable. Avoid chemical pH adjusters as in order to lower pH they need to strip the water of its buffering capacity which leaves the tank wide open to sudden and dramatic pH swings.

Not sure about that particular product, though.

 

[mark4785]

I have used pH buffers in the past, before I figured out that the pH is really not the issue with fish. The fish with a reputation for liking a low pH are really fish that like water low in minerals. When I add a pH buffer to my high pH water it does not reduce the mineral content, it adds the minerals that buffer the water. That means that the fish are worse off than if I had not used it. The whole idea of pH stress is really backward. One thing that has been easy to test since I was a child, let's not say how long ago, is the pH of a liquid. It became the common measure of water for fish, along with the temperature. Temperatures are easily controlled using a modern heater so that leaves pH to fuss with. Unfortunately, there was little science behind the drive for a particular pH and many products that will indeed move the pH were invented for fish tanks. As we have started to understand what is going on, it has been recognized that the mineral content of water is the thing that is truly important, not the pH. I keep fish like my Corydoras hastatus in excellent health in my tank but have a pH of about 7.8. Those guys come from water with a much lower pH but they thrive in my tank because I dilute my high pH water with pure water. The pH really does not move when I do that but the mineral content drops way down.
I have a link to a thorough discussion of pH vs hardness in my signature area. See especially the discussion by Bignose in post #20 of that thread for some insight.

I have taken a look at that particular thread you mention and it does appear that bicarbonate concentration and water hardness should be changed rather than the PH. I know that my KH level is around 4dH but the hardness of the water is probably almost twice that so, in accordance with what was mentioned in that thread, it is likely that the high mineral content entering the fish is causing skin irritation rather than the out-of-range PH level.

Unfortunately, I don't have a reverse osmosis system that will produce pure water that I can mix in with some of my tapwater when doing water changes in order to bring down the GH mineral content.

I guess I can't do that much to help the fish unless I get a RO unit plumbed in? lol

Are there any actual products that can lower the GH safely other than 'manufacturing' my own water which I think takes things a bit too far in my opinion..

 

[Katty]

Packaged products, I'm not sure about, but have you considered peat moss?

 

[mark4785]

Packaged products, I'm not sure about, but have you considered peat moss?

Yes I've considered it. I've heard that peat moss can degrade and increase ammonia levels. Does it lower the KH and PH of the water or does it lower the GH and PH?

Due to the fact that it can lower the PH to around 4.5 I think it would be best I not add it directly into the aquarium!

 

[mark4785]

Well, the c02 liquid fertilizer by EasyLife has arrived in the post and since c02 does lower the PH level I've decided I'll daily dose my aquarium with this fertilizer in order to maintain a PH of around 7.0. I'm going to dose it every day at 7pm when photosynthesis begins in the aquarium. I know an incorrect PH isn't supposed to harm the fish but it still would be ideal If I could get some way to mimicing their natural habitat PH.

If after dosing c02 and a PH of around neutral is maintained, I still find that the Rams are itching themselves, I will buy some 'Sphagnum Peat Moss' which apparently lowers the water PH and GH and I will install it into my spare 60 litre aquarium and wait until a PH of about 7.0 is reached (along with moderately soft water) before using it in the stocked aquarium.

The 60 litre aquarium was going to be used as a backup cycled tank for any pond Koi that become ill over the winter period. That idea truely went out the window fast!!

 

[Katty]

I'm pretty sure peat takes care of both GH and KH, but can't really find anything to back that up outside of forum posts in google...

I experimented with peat a little, and in a 10 gallon tank I got it from 7.6 to 7.2 using a golfball sized amount of peat in the filter over the course of two days. So in filter it won't radically swing out of control if you're just using tiny amounts at a time. Filtering water through a huge pile of peat outside of the tank did reach the lowest end of my test kit, 6.2. If you filter through it outside the tank you can slowly add the concentrated peat "juice" to the tank a little bit at a time and fine tune the pH that way. But it's a lot more work, especially if it's a big tank.

I was also thinking of rigging up a large coffee machine from the thrift store to do this for me, but my rams don't seem to mind my 7.6 water anyways so I just gave up on that.

Good luck, I hope something works out for you