Bacterial Blooms Explained

[backtotropical]

Hi Andy, and thanks for your comments.

If it is as you say, the level of organics required for any substantial bloom in an established tank would be huge. Given that around 80% of the ammonia/ammonium produced in our tank is directly excreted as part of the osmoregulatory functions of a fish (some figures cite closer to 90%), even an instant doubling in the amount of organic waste being processed would just require the AOB to increase in size by 20%.

I can't help but feel there is something further to this.

I'm not sure I know what you are saying there. You seem to be implying that if the AOB can easily catch up then the bloom won't happen?

Just to re-iterate, the cause of the bloom is the organic waste. Any sudden increase in organic waste will likely cause a bloom as the heterotrophs multiply to take care of it. The AOB are not involved in this at all, and the bloom will occur whatever the size of the AOB colony. No ammonia is required in the water column for a bloom to occur.

The required increase in the AOB colony you refer to would be to take care of the ammonia which is a by-product of the bloom. The increase in the AOB doesn't take care of the bloom itself, only the ammonia caused by the bloom.

I've not found any data to suggest what increase in organics is required to cause a bloom, but it certainly isn't controlled by the AOB.

We are dealing with two very seperate (although related) processes. The first being the reproduction of the heterotrophs causing the bloom and an ammonia spike, and the second being the AOB multiplying to take care of the extra ammonia.

I think you are saying that excess ammonia levels in the water can cause a bacterial bloom (which would be a bloom of the beneficial nitrifiers found in the filter, I assume?).

Everything I have read on the subject suggests that this doesn't happen, and as I detailed in the article, the ammonia spike often associated with bacterial blooms is a result of the bloom. The bloom is not a result of the ammonia, contrary to popular belief.

But, as you and your source note, the Heterotrophs do have the ability to oxidise ammonia, and they have the ability to reproduce far quicker than Nitrosomonas spp. Assuming that both colonies are at a point where the controlling factor is the availability of food and there is a sudden influx of food, why wouldn't the faster growing one quickly increase in numbers to take advantage of such a thing?

Yes, the facultative anaerobic heterotrophs do have the ability to oxidise ammonia, but only when in an aerobic state, and as my article states, even then very inefficiently.

I would suggest that the heterotrophs are usually in an anaerobic state, and in direct contrast to the autotroph nitrifiers will seek oxygen depleted environments, for example in the substrate. Only when an increase in organics occurs and the heterotrophs find themselves in the oxygen-rich environment of the water column, will they switch to an aerobic state and begin to oxidise ammonia.

Therefore, in order to take advantage of any sudden increase in ammonia, the bloom would need to be already in progress, which backs up my previous point that the bloom comes first, not the ammonia.

Whilst the heterotrophs do have the ability to reproduce much more quickly, they are also heterotrophic and predominantly anaerobic, and won't usually look for ammonia as a food. They will only seek ammonia as a food when exposed to an aerobic environment, which they usually try to avoid.

Incidentally, (i'm not sure if i noted this in the article) the heterotrophs don't have the ability to oxidise nitrite.

Any chance of further sources? The first is selling me bacteria in a bottle while the second is 404ing.

Being honest, I am aware the sources aren't great, but the truth is I researched many websites and didn't note them all down at the time. I can try to find them again, but it may take some time. It's actually something i've been meaning to do since writing the article, but never got round to it yet.

I'm not sure what happened to the second link. It did work before. I'll try to fix it, and failing that i'll remove it. Thanks for the heads up.

Cheers

BTT

 

[andywg]

I'm not sure I know what you are saying there. You seem to be implying that if the AOB can easily catch up then the bloom won't happen?

I wasn't as clear as I could be. I am saying that the level of increase in organics would have to be huge to cause an ammonia increase if the only cause of the bloom is increased organics being processed to ammonia. While a bloom may occur in the tank it would not cause a noticeable increase in ammonia unless the level of dissolved organics went through the roof.

I am also saying that if ammonia is noticed in the bloom then it may well be that the ammonia is not just coming from the heterotrophs. Hence, I feel there is more to this than the sales pitch tells us.

Just to re-iterate, the cause of the bloom is the organic waste. Any sudden increase in organic waste will likely cause a bloom as the heterotrophs multiply to take care of it. The AOB are not involved in this at all, and the bloom will occur whatever the size of the AOB colony. No ammonia is required in the water column for a bloom to occur.

I am not so sure that is the cause. What you have previously written states that the cause of the bloom is an increase in the population of a bacteria which prefers to process organics into ammonia but which can also process ammonia into nitrite. Just because it isn't required does not mean it cannot also be cause.

Yes, the facultative anaerobic heterotrophs do have the ability to oxidise ammonia, but only when in an aerobic state, and as my article states, even then very inefficiently.

So they can oxidise ammonia which would allow them to then grow as a colony, just they prefer to use organics.

I would suggest that the heterotrophs are usually in an anaerobic state, and in direct contrast to the autotroph nitrifiers will seek oxygen depleted environments, for example in the substrate. Only when an increase in organics occurs and the heterotrophs find themselves in the oxygen-rich environment of the water column, will they switch to an aerobic state and begin to oxidise ammonia.

Therefore, in order to take advantage of any sudden increase in ammonia, the bloom would need to be already in progress, which backs up my previous point that the bloom comes first, not the ammonia.

Why are you so quick to dismiss the potential that the heterotrophs could bloom because of ammonia as well as blooming to cause ammonia. And why would the bloom have to already be in place? There would already be a number of them in the water column purely via the same system that they originally got into the tank. The one working source you have provided states:

1) heteretrophs prefer anaerobic conditions

2) heterotrophs can occur in aerobic conditions and at that time will oxidise ammonia (though not as efficiently as AOB - though this is not massively important as we are not interested in the rate of process from ammonia to nitrite but rather the fact that the bacteria can utilise ammonia)

3) heterotrophs double in population size in 15-20 minutes against a similar number of hours for AOB (so 60 times quicker)

Now, based on what you have provided, it seems to me that if there is an abundance of ammonia then it is possible that the heterotrophs could start to bloom based on the increase in a food source (even if it is one they do not prefer and in conditions they are not fans of) and the fact that they can reproduce quicker than the AOB.

Whilst the heterotrophs do have the ability to reproduce much more quickly, they are also heterotrophic and predominantly anaerobic, and won't usually look for ammonia as a food. They will only seek ammonia as a food when exposed to an aerobic environment, which they usually try to avoid.

But due to a tank they will almost certainly be exposed since they can form spores, so even from the air you will likely have heterotrophs coming into contact with an aerobic situation with ammonia.

I am not saying that every bloom is caused by ammonia, just that it is possible that some of them are. This is based on reading the source you have posted. It may well be wrong, but I haven't seen anything which is too definitive written in an authoritative way as to whether your assertion that a bloom only comes from organics is correct or not.

 

[backtotropical]

All fair points, Andy.

I wrote the article based on the information I found, and it all pointed towards organic waste being the cause, and ammonia the result. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I found no sources that I can remember which suggested that the presence of ammonia can trigger a bloom. That's not to say there are none.

If anyone can find any such sources, i'd be very intrerested to see them.

At the moment, all the information available to me suggests that my article is correct.

BTT

 

[mothersues]

Thank you so very much - your information ROX, you are the most helpful and informative member/website I know.

 

[kirztie14]

Fantastic, well written and easy to understand.
Thanks!

 

[grogdog]

i am going through this at the minute, it is great to find out what it actually is, from reading this i am assuming mine is related to lack or air flow, my tank has been up for about 3-4 years and have been very lucky re deaths in tank since then but i have lost about 8 over the past 4-5 days including the sucker(that what my son calls it) which i have had from the start.

i did a mayor vacumm about 10days ago and added 5 cherry barbs(which i got froma different supplier than all other fish) and then i started to lose fish and water is murky.

just hope it clears soon.

 

[waterdrop]

i am going through this at the minute, it is great to find out what it actually is, from reading this i am assuming mine is related to lack or air flow, my tank has been up for about 3-4 years and have been very lucky re deaths in tank since then but i have lost about 8 over the past 4-5 days including the sucker(that what my son calls it) which i have had from the start.

i did a mayor vacumm about 10days ago and added 5 cherry barbs(which i got froma different supplier than all other fish) and then i started to lose fish and water is murky.

just hope it clears soon.

Hi grogdog, Do you have a good liquid-reagent based test kit like the API Freshwater Master Test Kit or the Nutrafin Mini-Master Test Kit or the Salifert Test Kits? Your issues sound like they could be better understood with good test results combined with an analysis of your gravel cleaning technique/habits plus possibly some details about filtration. Many of the members here can help with this. WD

 

[grogdog]

i am going through this at the minute, it is great to find out what it actually is, from reading this i am assuming mine is related to lack or air flow, my tank has been up for about 3-4 years and have been very lucky re deaths in tank since then but i have lost about 8 over the past 4-5 days including the sucker(that what my son calls it) which i have had from the start.

i did a mayor vacumm about 10days ago and added 5 cherry barbs(which i got froma different supplier than all other fish) and then i started to lose fish and water is murky.

just hope it clears soon.

Hi grogdog, Do you have a good liquid-reagent based test kit like the API Freshwater Master Test Kit or the Nutrafin Mini-Master Test Kit or the Salifert Test Kits? Your issues sound like they could be better understood with good test results combined with an analysis of your gravel cleaning technique/habits plus possibly some details about filtration. Many of the members here can help with this. WD

thanks for the reply, i dont have any of these kits but from reading this and other details it is definetly my fault and was caused when i did the big clean about 10-12 days ago, i normally just give the filter sponge a squeize in the water i take form the tank, but this time i ran it under the tap and as it happened removed all the bacteria, it is improving slighlty and i have reduced feeding to everyother day and there is a good air flow over the water so i have learnt no to do that again, i must have been very lucky over the past few years as never had any problems before. i will wait another few weeks before trying to replace any of the lost fish.

 

[waterdrop]

i am going through this at the minute, it is great to find out what it actually is, from reading this i am assuming mine is related to lack or air flow, my tank has been up for about 3-4 years and have been very lucky re deaths in tank since then but i have lost about 8 over the past 4-5 days including the sucker(that what my son calls it) which i have had from the start.

i did a mayor vacumm about 10days ago and added 5 cherry barbs(which i got froma different supplier than all other fish) and then i started to lose fish and water is murky.

just hope it clears soon.

Hi grogdog, Do you have a good liquid-reagent based test kit like the API Freshwater Master Test Kit or the Nutrafin Mini-Master Test Kit or the Salifert Test Kits? Your issues sound like they could be better understood with good test results combined with an analysis of your gravel cleaning technique/habits plus possibly some details about filtration. Many of the members here can help with this. WD

thanks for the reply, i dont have any of these kits but from reading this and other details it is definetly my fault and was caused when i did the big clean about 10-12 days ago, i normally just give the filter sponge a squeize in the water i take form the tank, but this time i ran it under the tap and as it happened removed all the bacteria, it is improving slighlty and i have reduced feeding to everyother day and there is a good air flow over the water so i have learnt no to do that again, i must have been very lucky over the past few years as never had any problems before. i will wait another few weeks before trying to replace any of the lost fish.

Unfortunately, as you've learned by losing fish, visual examination of the conditions your fish are living under turns out to not really tell you enough to save them from permanent gill or nerve damage due to ammonia or nitrite. This is a tidbit of science the serious fish scientists have passed on to us and its really pretty easy for us all to use it to the advantage of our fish. Test kits may seem expensive at first but they last pretty long and they really give us the information we need! WD

 

[grogdog]

i am going through this at the minute, it is great to find out what it actually is, from reading this i am assuming mine is related to lack or air flow, my tank has been up for about 3-4 years and have been very lucky re deaths in tank since then but i have lost about 8 over the past 4-5 days including the sucker(that what my son calls it) which i have had from the start.

i did a mayor vacumm about 10days ago and added 5 cherry barbs(which i got froma different supplier than all other fish) and then i started to lose fish and water is murky.

just hope it clears soon.

Hi grogdog, Do you have a good liquid-reagent based test kit like the API Freshwater Master Test Kit or the Nutrafin Mini-Master Test Kit or the Salifert Test Kits? Your issues sound like they could be better understood with good test results combined with an analysis of your gravel cleaning technique/habits plus possibly some details about filtration. Many of the members here can help with this. WD

thanks for the reply, i dont have any of these kits but from reading this and other details it is definetly my fault and was caused when i did the big clean about 10-12 days ago, i normally just give the filter sponge a squeize in the water i take form the tank, but this time i ran it under the tap and as it happened removed all the bacteria, it is improving slighlty and i have reduced feeding to everyother day and there is a good air flow over the water so i have learnt no to do that again, i must have been very lucky over the past few years as never had any problems before. i will wait another few weeks before trying to replace any of the lost fish.

Unfortunately, as you've learned by losing fish, visual examination of the conditions your fish are living under turns out to not really tell you enough to save them from permanent gill or nerve damage due to ammonia or nitrite. This is a tidbit of science the serious fish scientists have passed on to us and its really pretty easy for us all to use it to the advantage of our fish. Test kits may seem expensive at first but they last pretty long and they really give us the information we need! WD

i will buy a test kit on the way home from work and post results later, i will just start a new thread as more likely to get answers quickly on it.

 

[Shaman]

Hi

I've already got a topic running (called Hi! but I though I'd ask here to get a bit more exposure!)

I've had my tank (180l juwel) for nearly four weeks (using a fish-in cycle) and have had a "bacterial bloom" for 10days.

Looking round the interweb I've had the thought that my current water conditioner could be too blame (API pH 6.5 with conditioner) and that the suspected bacterial bloom is a chemical bloom. I've ordered a bottle of seachem prime as recommended by waterdrop but just thought I'd ask here whether or not bacterial and chemical blooms could be confused?!

I've also bought some java fern in the vague hope that plants may help!!

Cheers

Shaman

 

[Andrea12]

yes hi,i was wondering if anyone cou;ld help me out,my tank has been running for 6 weeks,its a it has fish,and i think has been cycled for 3 days.Ammonia is 0 ppm,nitrite 0ppm,and nitrate 10ppm,ever since then my tank has been cloudy,i even did a gravel clean yesterday with a 50% water change,I can't seem to get it to go away,before a water change would take care of it.I have a 37 gallon.Thanks

Andrea12

 

[Rizza87]

hi ladies and gentlemen lol.. I am new to the aquarium world.. I just purchased a 100 litre tank and followd all the set up procedures correctly, i think i am in the middle of the bacterial bloom stage as the tank has gone quite cloudy.. When i set up my tank it suggestedthat puttin a little drop of food in with the nutrafin cycle would boost the bacterial stage.. Reading in some of the post some1 said something about the 2 types of bacteria and that one feeds of off dead fish/rotten food e.t.c.. Will havin that tiny amount of food extend the time my bacterial bloom will now last as the bacteria has food to feed off?? Wat much appreciate a reply and any other tips you may feel an amateur like me could benefit from.. Thanks for your help and time and i will continue to do my research before i contemplate puttin fish in my aquarium

 

[boabmac63]

I got a a tank last week left it for 2 days and added fish i know now i shouldnt have cos most of them died today and ive had green milky water since i added them will the fish be ok and what should i do to clear it up a was doing water changes every 2 days bt iit done nothing and sumtime it got worse should a just leave it if so how long would it take to clear

 

[Wond3rBoi]

I just wanted to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. From my reading of this article and the Nitrogen Cycle I'd like to confirm the following:

1) The Nitrospira are the autotrophs
2) The Nitrosomonas are the heterotrophs
3) The Nitrosomonas are the ones that are permeating throughout the water and causing the cloudy water as they reproduce too fast to attach to anything
4) 99% of the Nitrospiras are located in the filter because they reproduce slower and attach themselves to the filter
5) The oxygen levels should be quite low because I have a bunch of heterotrophs consuming it and converting it to ammonia, thus...
6) The ammonia levels should be high because of ^^
7) These increased levels of ammonia allow more autotrophs, aka Nitrospira, to grow and generate a colony on the filter

Is this all correct? I've just started my first tank with my girlfriend (no fish or plants yet) and this site has been making it all incredibly clearer, so thanks in advance.