Archers Need Info

[TigerMan]

hi i need info on archer fish waht is the min tank size can they live in a 30 gal?? i don't know anything on these fish or brackish water fish so any other info would help

 

[afireinside]

http/www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Di...cfm?pCatId=1600

There you go buddy.

 

[nmonks]

Hello,

If you check out the Brackish FAQ (see below) you'll find information and Fishbase links on the 4 or 5 species traded. Bruce Hansen, a very experienced fish collector in Australia furnished me with most of the information there, for which I am grateful.

But in short: they are large, predatory fish that can be aggressive amongst themselves. Most specimens from South East Asia come from brackish water, but note that several archers, including populations of Toxotes chatereus, are exclusively freshwater fish. Although they can sometimes adapt to fully marine conditions, they actually do best at salinities a bit lower than scats or monos. On the other hand, an SG of 1.005 or so is fine, and they combine very well with green chromides, for example.

A 30 gallon tank is too small really. Most species seem to top 20 cm in captivity, and some get quite a bit bigger in the wild (30/40 cm). A long tank is useful, but depth is largely irrelevant. They like high temperatures, something like 25 C upwards. Feeding is easy, and they readily take pellets and bits of prawn.

Cheers,

Neale

hi i need info on archer fish waht is the min tank size can they live in a 30 gal?? i don't know anything on these fish or brackish water fish so any other info would help

 

[Dave Legacy]

Archers are great... I'm happy to see you showing interest!

I keep 4 Toxotes Jaculatrix Archerfish in a 40G Breeder. They're juvenilles at 2" but in the future this tank will no longer be suitable. Archers are shoaling fish and prefer to be kept with others of the same species, preferably 5+. I have 4 and they're doing just fine together but some minor aggression between them... not too frequently. I would suggest keeping them in a species only tank with a SG between 1.010-1.015SG. I had started my archers in 1.004-5SG and found they were very unhappy until I raised the SG at least up to 1.007SG. These fish are hunters and I have found that w/o proper stimulation they start to get stressed out. I like to feed mine live crickets on an over hanging branch at least every other day. Allow them to spit down and leap for the crickets. Don't count on them eating anything frozen or pellets. Mine will take thawed frozen bloodworms/mysis shrimp... but that doesn't mean yours will. All archers are wild caught so they're used to live food and natural living conditions.

Your tank should not be full. Allow at least 4" of open air above the water line. Archers do not require deep water... I keep mine in 10" of water with about 10+" of open air above the tank. You also want to use a sand substrate with driftwood as decor, but still maintain a large open swimming area.

This is just general info. I would do nothing less than a 55G but ideally 100+G for full grown adults in a species only setup. I'm planning my upgrade 240G right now. If you need more information on keeping archers you can PM me here, or email me at [email protected]

Have fun, Archers are the best fish I've ever had!
- Dave.

Most specimens from South East Asia come from brackish water, but note that several archers, including populations of Toxotes chatereus

hi i need info on archer fish waht is the min tank size can they live in a 30 gal?? i don't know anything on these fish or brackish water fish so any other info would help

Actually Toxotes Chatereus is a brackish water species. Often times Archerfish will be found in freshwater but not over the course of their entire lives. Freshwater can be acceptable when they're juvenilles but with age they will require a higher SG (however not always the case). I believe you're confusing Toxotes Chartereus with another member of the Toxotidae family which lives it's entire life in full freshwater. I believe it is the only true freshwater archerfish and is not avaliable in the fish trade.

 

[nmonks]

Hi Dave,

Nope, I'm not confusing Toxotes chatereus with anything.

All the South East Asian stock of this species is, indeed, brackish water (as I state in the Brackish FAQ, hence the link). However, I am reliably informed that there are specific Australian populations of this species that are strictly confined to freshwater (again, in the FAQ). These are not traded commercially outside of Australia.

There are two or three other strictly freshwater Toxotes, Toxotes lorentzi, Toxotes oligolepis, and an as-yet unnamed species from the Fitzroy River in Australia. There may be others, but these are the ones I know about.

I've kept Toxotes chatereus and Toxotes jaculatrix and found frozen prawns to be a cheap and readily accepted staple. I got mine to spit by squishing bits of prawn on the glass of the tank above the water line. By doing this just above the water, the fish smell the juices and see the food, and begin by sticking their snouts out to snap up the food. Repeat, raising the bits of prawn higher and higher. They first jump up at the food, but onces it's about half to 2/3rds the body length above the water, they start spitting. Very cool.

It's also worth mentioning that these fish will eat any fish they can fit in their (surprisingly large) mouths.

Regards,

Neale

Actually Toxotes Chatereus is a brackish water species. Often times Archerfish will be found in freshwater but not over the course of their entire lives. Freshwater can be acceptable when they're juvenilles but with age they will require a higher SG (however not always the case). I believe you're confusing Toxotes Chartereus with another member of the Toxotidae family which lives it's entire life in full freshwater. I believe it is the only true freshwater archerfish and is not avaliable in the fish trade.

 

[Dave Legacy]

Hi Dave,

Nope, I'm not confusing Toxotes chatereus with anything.

All the South East Asian stock of this species is, indeed, brackish water (as I state in the Brackish FAQ, hence the link). However, I am reliably informed that there are specific Australian populations of this species that are strictly confined to freshwater (again, in the FAQ). These are not traded commercially outside of Australia.

There are two or three other strictly freshwater Toxotes, Toxotes lorentzi, Toxotes oligolepis, and an as-yet unnamed species from the Fitzroy River in Australia. There may be others, but these are the ones I know about.

I've kept Toxotes chatereus and Toxotes jaculatrix and found frozen prawns to be a cheap and readily accepted staple. I got mine to spit by squishing bits of prawn on the glass of the tank above the water line. By doing this just above the water, the fish smell the juices and see the food, and begin by sticking their snouts out to snap up the food. Repeat, raising the bits of prawn higher and higher. They first jump up at the food, but onces it's about half to 2/3rds the body length above the water, they start spitting. Very cool.

It's also worth mentioning that these fish will eat any fish they can fit in their (surprisingly large) mouths.

Regards,

Neale

Actually Toxotes Chatereus is a brackish water species. Often times Archerfish will be found in freshwater but not over the course of their entire lives. Freshwater can be acceptable when they're juvenilles but with age they will require a higher SG (however not always the case). I believe you're confusing Toxotes Chartereus with another member of the Toxotidae family which lives it's entire life in full freshwater. I believe it is the only true freshwater archerfish and is not avaliable in the fish trade.

I see! I thought you meant the entire species was freshwater only. Thanks for the correction. I find that archers aren't nearly as picky as most people make them out to be. I also find they don't leave any food in the tank. Any bloodworms they miss they just pick off the bottom and I've heard many people say that archers wont eat off the bottom.

Neale, have you noticed how archers change colors when they're stressed and at night? This is normal behavior correct?

 

[CFC]

Are you reffering to the dark triangle that appears above the anal fin? If so this is perfectly normal, i often see the submisive fish flash this dark colour to the dominant one when minor disputes break out only for it to fade away again a few moments later.

One thing i will say is that archers are not exactly shoaling fish, as juviniles they like to be in groups but as they grow they become more intollerent of each other with each one needing its own space at the surface, weaker fish will be harrassed and forced down into the middle regios of the tank. If your keeping a group of adults i recomend around 18 square inches of surface area per fish. I have two in a 80 gallon tank and both seem perfectly happy dividing the area so they have half each but i have had 5 in the same tank which lead to non stop harrasment of the two weakest fish.

 

[nmonks]

Hi David,

Since the freshwater T. chatereus aren't traded, mentioning them is probably information overkill, but still, some people (fish geeks, like me) find this sort of thing interesting.

Like CFC, I have seen colour changes in these fish, and consider it to be no less 'normal' than the same thing in cichlids. Of course if one fish in a group consistently shows non-standard colours, e.g., is completely dark, then you might want to consider that in relation to its behaviour in other regards. Is it feeding properly? Is there sign of aggression within the group?

Archers supposedly have luminous patches on the flanks that help keep the group together in murky water. I can't swear that I've really noticed them. Possibly without the right diet this luminosity fades.

I've looked after archers for several years while at university, and found them to be highly aggressive within the group. As CFC says, they need space, and frankly they seem to be loners when mature. But in the wild they certainly are schooling fish, and there used to a big group of adults at Kew Gardens in one of the tropical pools. It was very cool watching them play 'follow the leader' -- they swam in a long line rather than a clump. This leads me to believe that they are intensely hierarchical, with a definite dominant fish leading the pack and choosing where they go. In fish tanks, unless you have a lot of space, this probably doesn't work out well, with the "alpha fish" bullying the smaller/weaker fish. Unless you have a really big tank, I'd tend to recommend just keeping a single archer.

Incidentally, archers are known to feed off the bottom, and have been observed using their "jet" to clear away sand to uncover worms and things. But the ones I took care of were so easy to feed, it wasn't an issue. Kept with scats and monos, not much food gets leftover anyway!

One cool thing was watching a scat learn how the archerfish fed. It would follow the archer and take position behind it. The archer would spit down the bit of prawn I'd put on the glass, and at the same moment the scat would zip forwards and steal the food. The scat in question was a Selenotoca sp., a really handsome fish that sort of has the reverse colours to the archer. This archer also happily ate trout pellets and 'Cichlid Gold' pellets. We also gave all these big, brackish water fish bits of squid and mackerel from time to time; messy, but they loved it!

Cheers,

Neale

 

[Dave Legacy]

Hi David,

Since the freshwater T. chatereus aren't traded, mentioning them is probably information overkill, but still, some people (fish geeks, like me) find this sort of thing interesting.

Like CFC, I have seen colour changes in these fish, and consider it to be no less 'normal' than the same thing in cichlids. Of course if one fish in a group consistently shows non-standard colours, e.g., is completely dark, then you might want to consider that in relation to its behaviour in other regards. Is it feeding properly? Is there sign of aggression within the group?

Archers supposedly have luminous patches on the flanks that help keep the group together in murky water. I can't swear that I've really noticed them. Possibly without the right diet this luminosity fades.

I've looked after archers for several years while at university, and found them to be highly aggressive within the group. As CFC says, they need space, and frankly they seem to be loners when mature. But in the wild they certainly are schooling fish, and there used to a big group of adults at Kew Gardens in one of the tropical pools. It was very cool watching them play 'follow the leader' -- they swam in a long line rather than a clump. This leads me to believe that they are intensely hierarchical, with a definite dominant fish leading the pack and choosing where they go. In fish tanks, unless you have a lot of space, this probably doesn't work out well, with the "alpha fish" bullying the smaller/weaker fish. Unless you have a really big tank, I'd tend to recommend just keeping a single archer.

Incidentally, archers are known to feed off the bottom, and have been observed using their "jet" to clear away sand to uncover worms and things. But the ones I took care of were so easy to feed, it wasn't an issue. Kept with scats and monos, not much food gets leftover anyway!

One cool thing was watching a scat learn how the archerfish fed. It would follow the archer and take position behind it. The archer would spit down the bit of prawn I'd put on the glass, and at the same moment the scat would zip forwards and steal the food. The scat in question was a Selenotoca sp., a really handsome fish that sort of has the reverse colours to the archer. This archer also happily ate trout pellets and 'Cichlid Gold' pellets. We also gave all these big, brackish water fish bits of squid and mackerel from time to time; messy, but they loved it!

Cheers,

Neale

Hey Neale,

Actually one of my archers is typically darker in color than the others. He doesn't seem to eat as aggressivly as the other either. I've been concerned so I've been feeding him when the others are occupied, but he still eats like normal, and spits. My archers actually follow eachother in a line like you were talking about and often times hover around the driftwood stump together. I have noticed that some of them are more dominant than others.

My issue is I have no idea where these particular fish came from so I'm not sure if I'm giving them too much or too little salt. Not sure if the temp is too their liking or if the pH is too low. Currently they're in a 40G breeder, 10" of water, Silica Sand substrate, lots of driftwood and synthetic hairgrass, a decent amount of tannin in the water, pH of 7.8, temp of 79.0. Should I add some argonite or crushed coral sand to raise the pH? My SG is 1.007 maybe I need more salt?

I just don't feel they are all that happy. I feel like they could be happier. I'm setting up my plans for a 240G Square tank for them that will be a Paulidarium setup with a couple live mangroves, beach areas, and lots of swimming space. They're only 2" right now so it may be kinda over kill. Also my Toxotes Jaculatrix have very very yellow tails would that signify what region they might come from?

I'm currently feeding baby crickets, mysis shrimp, bloodworms.... what other frozen or live foods should I be offering? Any dietary supplements?

Thanks Neale, you rule! =)

 

[Dave Legacy]

Anyone know of any scientific publications on the Toxotidae Family? Not as much general information about keeping them in a home aquarium as much as deepy detailed information.

 

[nmonks]

Dave,

I don't have any scientific papers on this species to hand, I'm afraid. But it's always worth doing a Family search at Fishbase, in this case for the Toxotidae, you get this:

http/www.fishbase.org/Summary/FamilySummary.cfm?ID=337

Follow that up by clicking on the 'show species' link, thus:

http/www.fishbase.org/identification/spe...e=337&areacode=

What's interesting, for example, is of the 7 described species, 4 are exclusively freshwater. So while we think of archers as "brackish water fish", that's really not strictly accurate. Mind you, the commonest species, Toxotes jaculatrix and Toxotes chataereus certainly are brackish water fish. My understanding is that only Toxotes jaculatrix is commonly found in marine waters, and hence is the only one able to migrate to oceanic islands. All the others more-or-less hug the coastlines.

Another general comment seems to be that archers prefer salinities somewhat lower than scats and monos. Half-strength seawater, as would suit green chromides and mudskippers, for example, is about right. These aren't really fish that go into the open sea, they tend to skirt around the edges of mangroves looking for prey. As insects aren't that common in the open sea, there's no reason for them to go there. Really, everything about them is designed (evolved, rather) for a life close to the roots of trees, either mangroves or regular rain forest ones.

Definitely try and get hold of the Aqualog book on brackish water fishes. Until my book comes out next year, it's pretty well the only decent brackish water book out there. For one thing, it has a nice guide to identifying which archerfish you have. For example, if it has 4 dorsal fin spines, it's Toxotes jaculatrix. If it has 5 dorsal fin spines, it could be Toxotes chatareus, Toxotes microlepis, or Toxotes oligolepis. It's important to key these three out: they look alike, but only Toxotes chatareus normally occurs in brackish water. Toxotes chatareus has additional small spots between the series of bands.

Here's the interesting thing: according to Schaefer, Toxotes microlepis is actually much more commonly sold as the "common archer" than Toxotes jaculatrix. Toxotes microlepis tolerates brackish up to about SG 1.008, but prefers fresh water. To tell them apart you can use the fin spine counts mentioned above. If your fish aren't looking happy, check whether you really have Toxotes microlepis and not Toxotes jaculatrix.

Toxotes microlepis, by the way, only reaches 15 cm in length, and it's very probable that a lot of the "small" archers people have kept are actually this species. Others have noted that archers seem to 'stunt' in captivity, and if Schaefer is right, then maybe that's because we're all keeping a totally different fish! Toxotes jaculatrix supposedly reaches 30 cm or so.

If you do have Toxotes microlepis, then a neutral pH and moderate hardness is probably the way to go. All archers seem to like fairly high temperatures, so I'd certainly consider 26 C upwards, though you may need to boost the aeration to compensate for the reduced oxygen concentration in the water.

By the way, your foods sound fine. I'd try to train them onto a decent quality pellet food (a cichlid diet of some type). Prepared foods like these are by far the most reliable when it comes to making sure a fish gets all the vitamins and minerals it needs.

Cheers,

Neale

Toxotes microlepis, at Fishbase. Note the four dorsal fin spines. Ignore the colours; they vary with mood and individual. It does have a very yellow tail, though, like your fish, perhaps?

 

[Dave Legacy]

Oh no! I think you're right! I think they might be Toxotes microlepis... this is a picture of mine in my tank.

Wow, I'm totally stunned. I just had to inform that guy the other day that his Figure-Eight puffers were actually Ceylon and I just got hit with the same medicine... damn. As you can see mine have more large blotches than actual bands. I actually think mine are prettier than the pics I've seen of Toxotes Jaculatrix on Fishbase, so that's cool... however I've been planning to raise their SG up to 1.015 which would probably kill these guys right?

So what do you think? Toxotes Microlepis for sure? What should I do about my Salinity and living conditions? I have a HOB filter that aerates the water quite a bit... it's kinda waterfallish. This is pretty dissapointing, I love my fish but I was hoping to build up to a higher SG to keep mudskippers in the future in the next tank.

Put me down for a copy of your book when it comes out next year. You've already sold me.

 

[CFC]

Yep those are definately the microlepis, heres some pics of my jaculatrix which shows they are a vastly different looking fish.

It seems that the species you find regularly depends greatly on where you live, here in the UK i have only ever seen jaculatrix and the occasional chaterus mixed in with them but over in the states it seems people most regularly find microlepis in the stores.

Give us a heads up when the book is available Neale, its about time there was a decent brackish resource out there.

 

[nmonks]

Hi Dave,

Since those definitely aren't Toxotes chatereus, count the dorsal fin spines. If it's 4, they're Toxotes jaculatrix, if it's 5, they're Toxotes microlepis.

If you don't know what fin spines are, they're the stout, sharp spines at the front of the dorsal. All perciform fish have a "hard" dorsal fin section and a "soft" dorsal fin section. The soft section has, surprise, soft fin rays that bend easily. The hard section has firm, spines that presumably make them less appetising mouthfuls and therefore dissuade predators. These "fin ray counts" are a standard way of distinguishing similar-looking fish.

Anyway, assuming they are are Toxotes microlepis, then you do want to lower the SG a bit. While it tolerates low salinities, e.g. an SG of 1.005 should be fine, it's reputedly a freshwater fish. Schaefer reports a maximum salinity of 15 ppt, about half-strength seawater.

To be honest, CFC's fish look like Toxotes chatereus to me. The distinguishing characters here are 5, not 4, dorsal spines, and the small blotches in between the larger ones. Not that it makes much difference, since these two species have similar requirements. I wouldn't keep Toxotes chatereus at an SG above 1.010, but otherwise they're good, brackish water fish. Incidentally, the Schaefer book has a report on breeding Toxotes chatereus, and it is noted that at SG 1.010 breeding failed (the eggs died) but at SG 1.006 breeding worked out. Not that breeding conditions reflect living conditions: monos breed in freshwater, but I wouldn't keep them in freshwater.

Mudskippers don't need an especially salty environment, what they cannot tolerate is purely fresh water. Richard Mleczko knows more about collecting and keeping mudskippers in captivity. He keeps his at 1.003 to 1.006, and your archers will handle that just fine.

http/members.ozemail.com.au/~thebobo/aquaria.htm

Thanks for the positive comments about my book. It's a giant project: multi-authored, each author writing about his/her field of expertise. I'm the editor. It's in the pre-production phase, i.e., the text is done but they're still coming up with covers and page layout schemes. It's a huge book, around 90,000 words, and currently runs to about 430 pages! I'm hoping it will be the brackish water book we've all been waiting for.

Cheers,

Neale

-------------


Archerfish identification (after Schaefer 2005)

1 -- 4 dorsal fin spines = Toxotes jaculatrix
2 -- 5 dorsal fin spines = go to 3
3 -- An additonal small dark spot on the dorsal region between the dark stripes = Toxotes chatereus
-- No small dark spots
4 -- Fewer than 30 scales along the flanks (lateral line) = Toxotes oligolepis
-- More than 30 scales along the flanks (lateral line) = Toxotes microlepis

Salinity preferences (after Schaefer 2005, Fishbase)

1.010 to sea water: Toxotes jaculatrix
1.005 to 1.010: Toxotes chatereus
Fresh to 1.005: Toxotes microlepis, Toxotes oligolepis
Fresh: Toxotes lorenzi, Toxotes blythi

 

[CFC]

Mine are 100% jaculatrix, not only do they have exactly 4 spines in the dorsal ive kept 2 chatereus before (together with 3 jaculatrix) and they are a far different fish, their bodies arent as deep and their colour is much more "grey", also the bands go right into the dorsal on jaculatrix but stop short of entering the dorsal on chatereus, when viewed side by side it is very easy to see the differences.

Of course the best way to be sure would be to do a scale count but i'm not prepared to put my fish through the stress of being held on a board while i count the scales