Another Plant Recommendation Question

[Christine1014]

Sorry, I'm stealing jesseoneill's idea! I've been researching and talking to my LFS trying to find the perfect addition for my tank and have been having no luck. I saw Jesseoneill's post and thought, "duh! I can ask the forum!"


I have a 10 gallon tank with three WPG, and I'm fertilizing EI. No CO2.
I've got some java moss, java fern, an anubus, and some tiny wisteria (planted, not floating) and I'm looking for something kind of tall and fast growing for the back of the tank.

I had some hornwort that I ordered online (along with the anubus and wisteria) and it was kinda brown when I got it (so was the wisteria). I planted it anyway, hoping I could bring it back to life. Dumb idea. It only got more brown, and before i knew it, I had the biggest mess of a fishtank I'd ever seen. What a beast that was to clean!! (For the wisteria, I chopped back as much of the brown parts as i could, and just planted the little remaining pieces. So far so good I guess, but those two were supposed to be my background / algae control....)

So anyway, when I asked my LFS for something fast growing that might help combat some emerging algae, they had no idea how a plant could reduce algae, and suggested I get more java moss.

So anyway, any recommendations? (Other than hornwort, which i never want to see again! ) My LFS will order whatever I want, but clearly I'm not going to be able to rely on them to help me with my decision!

Thanks! Any help is appreciated!

 

[nry]

Hmm, EI, high light, bit no CO2...possibly not a good idea, lack of CO2 will really slow down plant growth and the nutrients etc with be nice and ready for algae to eat. Many stem plants like cabomba, elodea, egeria grow well, but without CO2 you may be asking for trouble with 3wg....

 

[Christine1014]

NO!!!!!!! Okay, I've gotta stop listening to the LFS. Seriously.
They told me the WPG rule didn't really apply to a tank as small as 10 gallons, and that even for it to be considered low light, I needed at least 2.5 WPG.

 

[Underwurlde]

^ The WPG general rule becomes less applicable the smaller the tank.

Anyway, nry is right, you can't just miss out the CO2 and hope everything else will compensate.

It goes something like this:

Plants want to grow, the first & foremost thing you give them is light. EI is for mega growth type ppl, so you give them loads of light >>2.5W/US Gal
So they start to grow, next thing they need is carbon (they've already got plentyful H & O... water), but oops, no CO2, can't grow, carbon limited conditions.
THEN, to make matters 'worse' you've added ferts on the pretence of mega-growth, so that doen't happen, plants may (for the first week or so) stuff themselfs with ferts (this is buffering, because they won't be using them) and then they'll probably then become nutrient inhibited (too much of one nutrient can actually hinder uptakes of others - not good).

So.... You've got all this light - this will result in a small inital growth spurt probably, a few days of nutrient gobbling and then bosh, loads of light, loads of unused ferts floating about and thats when the algae will bite you!

EI, because of the massive doses of 'everything' can't be half done....

Andy

BTW you dont't HAVE to have CO2, and therefore go the EI route - this is high cash, high maintenance stuff.

 

[Christine1014]

So the organic carbon (the Seachem Flourish product) isn't a good enough source of carbon?

I'm seeing a nutrafin kit in my future, I think...

 

[Underwurlde]

Not for EI, no (unless you pour so much of it in, it'll cost you a fortune).

Using a yeast kit for EI is 'doable', but is a pain in the azz. Stability is what you need for CO2 and is what is lacking with these kits. Instabilies allow algae to get a foothold. If you do get one of these kits, big tip here, get two and stagger them: In other words, replenish one on Saturday and then replenish the other on Wednesday (the mix usually lasts one week and you can make your own mix using 1/2 tsp of off the shelf yeast).

Andy

 

[nry]

I have a 5-gallon and a 15-gallon tank. 5-gallon has 3.6wpg and the 15-gallon has 2.5wpg. 3.5wpg over 5-gallons is not very good, plants grow, but not as fast as my 15-gallon. I think 10-gallon is possibly a fair mix between the two sizes, and 3wpg over 10-gallon is, in my mind, quite a high figure.

EI 'can' work with Flourish Excel (this is the organic carbon treatment, not the same as Flourish) but you need reduced doses of the EI chemicals. www.barrreport.com is a good start for EI with Flourish Excel.

 

[Christine1014]

In other words, replenish one on Saturday and then replenish the other on Wednesday (the mix usually lasts one week and you can make your own mix using 1/2 tsp of off the shelf yeast).

A week?! The packet says it lasts for 28 days!

 

[Christine1014]

EI 'can' work with Flourish Excel (this is the organic carbon treatment, not the same as Flourish) but you need reduced doses of the EI chemicals. www.barrreport.com is a good start for EI with Flourish Excel.

My current dosage was 2 ml of the organic carbon every other day.
2.5 ml of Excel every other day.
The days I don't add the Excel, I add 1/32 tsp of Potassium Phosphate, and 1/8 tsp Potassium Nitrate.

(Tom Barr always seems to give his measurements in ml, and I don't mix up the solutions ahead of time; I find dry dosing much simpler.)

But last night I set up a nutrafin c02 kit... (whcih wasn't bubbling 10 hours later when I left for work, so I'll be interested to see if it's working when I get home). So what do you think - get rid of the nutrafin, and leave my dosing the way it was, get rid of the nutrafin and change my dosing, keep the nutrafin AND the dosing, get a second nutrafin.... ???

 

[Underwurlde]

A week?! The packet says it lasts for 28 days!

Re-read what I said, I was not referring to the pukka Nutrafin Packets of yeast. Make your own mix for a fraction of the price. See G.Farmer's summary of kits here on how to do this:
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=101380

(Tom Barr always seems to give his measurements in ml, and I don't mix up the solutions ahead of time; I find dry dosing much simpler.)

So do I. I perfer dry dosing and for that matter, from what I read, so does Tom.

(whcih wasn't bubbling 10 hours later when I left for work, so I'll be interested to see if it's working when I get home

Should be bubbling away from about 1/2hr to 2hrs later. Therefore it is either too cold, not sealed or you've not mixed it correctly.

get rid of the nutrafin, and leave my dosing the way it was...

Like I said, NOT a good idea IMO.

...get rid of the nutrafin and change my dosing...

Doable, but then this won't be EI. This will be going towards 'El Natural' techniques.
(If you're interested: http/www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=191795 )

... keep the nutrafin AND the dosing, get a second nutrafin.... ???

If you still want to go the EI route and can't really afford injected CO2, then this is what many people here do.

regards,

Andy

PS,
with those Nutrafin kits you get bubble ladders which in my humble opinion are crap. Use Spio or Rhinox diffusor instead - far more efficent, pretty and produce and nice stream of bubbles. Also if you have an air stone in the tank, loose it!

 

[Christine1014]

Well that all sounds reasonable. I'm eager to get home from work and see if I've got bubbles... the nutrafin instructions said bubbles should appear between 1.5 and 12 hours. But that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if I've messed something up in the set-up!

I didn't even know there was another kind of diffuser other than Nutrafin; there's only one shop in town that carries any sort of CO2 stuff, and even there nutrafin was my only option. That ladder is unsightly. I'll to have check around elsewhere for the other brands. One of each wouldn't hurt anything, would it?

But -- given all that -- 3 WPG, EI dosing, and one soon-to-be-two CO2 diffusers ... can anyone recommend a nice fast growing plant (NOT hornwort!) for the back area of my tank?

Thanks bunches!

 

[nry]

I actually think the ladder is pretty efficient, never had any issues with it giving me enough CO2, even with the nozzle on the middle height 'bit'.

A diffuser is good aswell, certainly a lot smaller than the Nutrafin ladder, I have one now as the ladder was a bit unsightly.

The sachets that come with the Nutrafin kit are, in my opinion, rubbish. Of the three that came with my kit only one gave me any bubbles, the other two did nothing at all. I now use sugar + packet yeast from the shop. I have two cannisters linked together via a t-joint feeding the diffuser. I change one on Wed and one on Sun. This is discussed in the pinned article on this site and works very well. You only need one diffuser between two cannisters.

 

[Underwurlde]

Spio V Diffuser:
http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?...roducts_id=1236

...looks pretty, but apparently not as good as:

AquaMagic Rhinox 5000, 2000 & 1000
(do a search on ebay).

I don't like to recommend plants as I can never remember the names properly....

Andy

@nry. Yeah, for me the ladder only gave me about 11ppm, with a diffusor this shot up to about 25 - 30ppm (for the same mix / bubble rate).... Just my experience of course. Oh, and they looked, for me, completly distracting, but then again I am minimalist...