Another Newbie Again

[KittyKat]

******Kitty Kat,I did a 50% water change in there today. I need to retest in the morning. I'ved been reading plenty of the pinned topics for the nitrogen cycle, fishless cycling, fish in cycling, beginners resources, others and your link. I need to re-read some of this tomorrow, but wanted to ask a couple of questions. If the nitrite level is still very high later when I test, I was wondering if I should also do the following as well as the water changes:

*****I was reading about putting an extra filter in an already established tank so it can be used for another. Should I add one to the 29 gal tank to move when ready to the 10 gal with the struggling neons? ( realize this is what you were explaining to me me with the wheel). If so, how long do you leave the filter in there before it's considered ready to transport to another tank?

This would work, but the problem is that it takes 6 weeks for the filter to grow decent numbers of bacteria, if you place it in the 29 gal, while your 10 gal is almost finished growing bacteria already (as can be seen from the 0 ppm reading of ammonia).

*****Also I do have an ornamental shell decoration in the 29 gal tank, should I put that in the 10 gal tank to help with the good bacteria?

It might help, but the difference will be very tiny.. more likely to help if you take a little bit of sponge or something else from the 29 gal filter and put it inside the 10 gal filter.

>>>>>Without a source of ammonia feeding the filter bacteria, it won't be able to sustain any life.. I do recommend that if you plan to add stock to it soon, you add household ammonia to it to feed the bacteria. Just be aware that light + ammonia = algae, so you'll have to keep the lights off.

*****OK.. thanks. I don't keep ammonia in the house as I am sensitive to chemcials, is it an option to add an established filter I make up as I described above from the 29 gal tank for the 5 gal also? If not, will work it out with the ammonia.

What type of filter is on the 29 gallon?

Yes and no: the filter in the 5 gal is a HOTB with a biowheel.. the bacteria inside the a submersed filter would not survive on the biowheel of the 5 gal.. but it is possible to use the biowheel HOTB as a normal HOTB (where bacteria are inside the HOTB). In short, if you attach the whole 5 gal filter (the HOTB and biowheel parts) to the 29 gal, you can at some point in the future move the whole thing back to the 5 gal without problems, assuming you add fish right away.

>>>My 29 gal tests alright also, I have a lot of babies in there I think about 10 at this point. I suppose I have to separate the Sunburst Platy's, Why do you need to separate them? The 10 gallon will take the platy, but you may be compromising on ideal conditions for one or the other.

*****It was suggested to me by someone in person I know to separate them because of the constant breeding issue... but it doesn't make sense anyway because there will be plenty more of that going on with all the other fish I imagine.

After you separate the males from the females, the females can keep giving birth to young for 3-9 months.. so it doesn't make much sense. A better solution will be to find a way of selling or trading in the babies when they are large enough. As it is, it will take some time for them to overpopulate the 29 gal anyway..

 

[catbirdie]

>>>>The 5 gal tank they originally were in is not cloudy anymore, and tests fine
Without a source of ammonia feeding the filter bacteria, it won't be able to sustain any life.. I do recommend that if you plan to add stock to it soon, you add household ammonia to it to feed the bacteria. Just be aware that light + ammonia = algae, so you'll have to keep the lights off.

>>>>As your 5 gallon is now, the same thing will happen to it as happened to the 10 gallon, if you add fish to it. You need to make sure that there are enough bacteria in on the wheel before you add any fish. Read about fishless cycling in the beginners' resource in the newbie forum, and if you like, have a look at my 60 litre/cycle log (link is in my signature).

*******Hi Kitty Kat.. back to this for the moment...

*******I'd like to get the 5 gal ready again. I just want to check with you to make sure I do it right. Since it's been sitting. The reading are all 0 ppm on that one, which you probably expected. Do I just need to add ammonia and that's it for the moment? If so how much?..and then just wait and test? I don't want to make any mistakes before adding any fish when ready.

*******10 gal tank w/neons & 2 snails still- readings: Ammonia 0 ppm; Nitrite still the same high 5.0 ppm; Nitrate 10 ppm which is an increase since yesterday. (Yesterday read 5.0 ppm) Will do 50% water change in a little while.

****On the 29 gal tank w/ the 4 guppies, 2 adult Platy's, 11 babies (as of today),and 2 snails the readings are: Ammonia .25 ppm; Nitrite 0 ppm; Nitrate 10 ppm (which is higher than yesterday on this one was 5 yesterday) pH 6.0 ppm.

Oh and just to note, was so much fun last night watching the fry nibbling at the live plants...and all the exciting activity in there.

Thanks much

 

[KittyKat]

>>>>The 5 gal tank they originally were in is not cloudy anymore, and tests fine
Without a source of ammonia feeding the filter bacteria, it won't be able to sustain any life.. I do recommend that if you plan to add stock to it soon, you add household ammonia to it to feed the bacteria. Just be aware that light + ammonia = algae, so you'll have to keep the lights off.

>>>>As your 5 gallon is now, the same thing will happen to it as happened to the 10 gallon, if you add fish to it. You need to make sure that there are enough bacteria in on the wheel before you add any fish. Read about fishless cycling in the beginners' resource in the newbie forum, and if you like, have a look at my 60 litre/cycle log (link is in my signature).

*******Hi Kitty Kat.. back to this for the moment...

*******I'd like to get the 5 gal ready again. I just want to check with you to make sure I do it right. Since it's been sitting. The reading are all 0 ppm on that one, which you probably expected. Do I just need to add ammonia and that's it for the moment? If so how much?..and then just wait and test? I don't want to make any mistakes before adding any fish when ready.

I'm going to try and get this as simple as possible:
1. acquire some household ammonia (this should contain ONLY ammonia and water, it is usually a 9.5% or a 25% solution) and a syringe for measuring it out
2. test ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in the tank (record value)
3. add 1 ml ammonia and test ammonia (record value, it should be 4 ppm)
4. 24 hours later test ammonia and ntirite (record values), keep testing at 24 hour intervals until you record a value of 0 ppm for ammonia and nitrite
5. once ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm, add another 1 ml of ammonia, test every at 12 hour intervals until ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm
6. repeat 5 until ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm 12 hours after you add 1 ml of ammonia
7. do a 90% water change with warm, dechlorinated water and add fish

*******10 gal tank w/neons & 2 snails still- readings: Ammonia 0 ppm; Nitrite still the same high 5.0 ppm; Nitrate 10 ppm which is an increase since yesterday. (Yesterday read 5.0 ppm) Will do 50% water change in a little while.

Do more like 90%: a 50% water change with 0 ppm nitrite will only bring the reading down to 2.5 ppm. Nitrite over 0.25 ppm is considered dangerous. You need to get those readings a LOT lower.

****On the 29 gal tank w/ the 4 guppies, 2 adult Platy's, 11 babies (as of today),and 2 snails the readings are: Ammonia .25 ppm; Nitrite 0 ppm; Nitrate 10 ppm (which is higher than yesterday on this one was 5 yesterday) pH 6.0 ppm.

Lucky for you, 0.25 ppm of ammonia at pH 6.0 is not that harmful.. but be careful because nitrite is harmful at lower pHs.

 

[catbirdie]

>>>>>I'm going to try and get this as simple as possible:
1. acquire some household ammonia (this should contain ONLY ammonia and water, it is usually a 9.5% or a 25% solution) and a syringe for measuring it out
2. test ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in the tank (record value)
3. add 1 ml ammonia and test ammonia (record value, it should be 4 ppm)
4. 24 hours later test ammonia and ntirite (record values), keep testing at 24 hour intervals until you record a value of 0 ppm for ammonia and nitrite
5. once ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm, add another 1 ml of ammonia, test every at 12 hour intervals until ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm
6. repeat 5 until ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm 12 hours after you add 1 ml of ammonia
7. do a 90% water change with warm, dechlorinated water and add fish

******OK KIttyKat thank you for the step by step.
>>>10 gal tank w/neons & 2 snails still- readings: Ammonia 0 ppm; Nitrite still the same high 5.0 ppm; Nitrate 10 ppm which is an increase since yesterday. (Yesterday read 5.0 ppm) Will do 50% water change in a little while.

Do more like 90%: a 50% water change with 0 ppm nitrite will only bring the reading down to 2.5 ppm. Nitrite over 0.25 ppm is considered dangerous. You need to get those readings a LOT lower.

***Yes, worried about the nitrites big time, ok. Wish I could just move those fish to the 29 gal tank and save them that way.

>>>On the 29 gal tank w/ the 4 guppies, 2 adult Platy's, 11 babies (as of today),and 2 snails the readings are: Ammonia .25 ppm; Nitrite 0 ppm; Nitrate 10 ppm (which is higher than yesterday on this one was 5 yesterday) pH 6.0 ppm.

Lucky for you, 0.25 ppm of ammonia at pH 6.0 is not that harmful.. but be careful because nitrite is harmful at lower pHs.

***OK will do. Thanks again.

 

[KittyKat]

10 gal tank w/neons & 2 snails still- readings: Ammonia 0 ppm; Nitrite still the same high 5.0 ppm; Nitrate 10 ppm which is an increase since yesterday. (Yesterday read 5.0 ppm) Will do 50% water change in a little while.

Do more like 90%: a 50% water change with 0 ppm nitrite will only bring the reading down to 2.5 ppm. Nitrite over 0.25 ppm is considered dangerous. You need to get those readings a LOT lower.

Yes, worried about the nitrites big time, ok. Wish I could just move those fish to the 29 gal tank and save them that way.

On the 29 gal tank w/ the 4 guppies, 2 adult Platy's, 11 babies (as of today),and 2 snails the readings are: Ammonia .25 ppm; Nitrite 0 ppm; Nitrate 10 ppm (which is higher than yesterday on this one was 5 yesterday) pH 6.0 ppm.

Lucky for you, 0.25 ppm of ammonia at pH 6.0 is not that harmful.. but be careful because nitrite is harmful at lower pHs.

OK will do. Thanks again.

Well.. you kinda can.. but you're getting into the complicated cycle theory here and there's no simple way to explain it. In short, bacteria work best at high pH (those are the conditions where ammonia is most toxic and nitrite is least toxic), but at low pHs, the bacteria are either really, really bad at doing their job or stop altogether (which is why there are often ammonia problems in highly stocked, low planted softwater aquariums..) but luckily, most of the ammonia is ammonium in those conditions, so it is least toxic, but at the same time, nitrite is most toxic at those conditions.

Basically, you can move the fish over, but you're likely to get problems unless you get lots of undemanding plants for the 29 gallon (Java moss, Hygrophila, water lettuce are all good candidates) at the same time.

 

[catbirdie]

>>>Lucky for you, 0.25 ppm of ammonia at pH 6.0 is not that harmful.. but be careful because nitrite is harmful at lower pHs.
Well.. you kinda can..Basically, you can move the fish over, but you're likely to get problems unless you get lots of undemanding plants for the 29 gallon (Java moss, Hygrophila, water lettuce are all good candidates) at the same time.

*******Hi Kitty Kat....
I have some GREAT news! Here are the current readings on the 10 gal w/ the neons and the two snails:
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: .25 ppm (yeahhhhhhh this is a big time decrease, I'm so thrilled)
Nitrate 5.0 ppm (which has been constant all week)

*******Should I still do water changes to get the nitrites down?

*******29 gal tank:

Ammonia: .25 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5.0 ppm
pH 6.8 ppm

On the 29 gal I did a cleaning yesterday and a partial water change. Have a lot of babies in there. Plan on transferring some to the 5 gal tank as we discussed.

Thanks much for the continuing help towards saving my fish and giving me the education of a lifetime and yes I plan on re-reading and learning, really enjoying the fish.

 

[KittyKat]

Ok, so overall, it looks good. The filters are still adapting a bit.. as can be seen by the ammonia and nitrite readings. Have you checked your tap water ammonia pre-dechlorination and post-dechlorination? And tap nitrite?

 

[catbirdie]

>>>>>>Ok, so overall, it looks good. The filters are still adapting a bit.. as can be seen by the ammonia and nitrite readings. Have you checked your tap water ammonia pre-dechlorination and post-dechlorination? And tap nitrite?

Kitty Kat I just took the readings because we changed our whole house water filter so I wanted to wait for that. I did think that with the filter media we had better quality water, so I have to address that issue as I also tested a bottle of spring water after I got these results.

Tap water pre-dechlorination:
ammonia: 1.0
Nitrite: 2.0
pH 7.6

Tap water post dechlorination:
ammonia: .50 ppm
nitrite 1.0 ppm

Bottled spring water (just for my own edification)
ammonia- 0
nitrite 0

I was very surprised by the readings of my filtered water. Also, the pet store gave me aquarium salt to help the neons de-stress and so on. I have not used it yet. Do you recommend it?

 

[KittyKat]

Ah, I see.. your problem here is that your tap water is #105### and probably has been all along. It is quite surprising to see that the nitrite was different before and after dechlorination, which dechlorinator do you use?

So actually, I recommend that you cut down on water changes, because that's where half the problem is coming from.

 

[KittyKat]

So, if you want to compare, my ammonia, nitrite and nitrate pre-dechlorination are 0 ppm and ammonia post-dechlorination is 0.25 ppm

I was very surprised by the readings of my filtered water. Also, the pet store gave me aquarium salt to help the neons de-stress and so on. I have not used it yet. Do you recommend it?

No, salt will not do neons any good! Tetras are softwater fish, and as such do not tolerate salt very well. Corys and some other catfish can not tolerate it at all, even. Salt should be primarily used as a treatment, for example, for ich, etc. Last time I used it in freshwater aquaria was to kill hydra.

On the other hand, livebearers can be treated with salt, so do keep it in case there are any problems with them.

 

[catbirdie]

>>>>>No, salt will not do neons any good!
On the other hand, livebearers can be treated with salt, so do keep it in case there are any problems with them.

****ok good to know, thank you.


******Hi KittyKat,
Here's the update on the tanks:

10 gal w/neons: (Friday and Saturday)

Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate all 0 ppm

The 3 neons recovered a lot considering what they've been through. Long term damage I can't say of course, but except for the little red one who is a little twitchy and some aggressive behavior of the largest one towards the 2 others, there's nothing else to report on that tank for the moment. Would it be safe to add a fish or two from the 29 gal tank or should I wait more time? The reason I ask is because of a sick guppy from the 29 gal see below for that explanation.

Is there anything else you'd like to suggest to me in regard to helping the neons in the 10 gal heal?


29 gal tank w/guppies, sunburst platy's and 7 babies:

All those babies really threw off the balance of the tank.
Saturday & Sunday:
ammonia- .50 ppm
nitrite 0 ppm
nitrate 0 ppm

I did water changes each day and add of course the ammonia detoxifier/ chlorine detox as I always do with new water. One of the yellow guppies has been just "sitting". Yesterday was on the top, listless, today on the bottom, but does move around from time to time. Still and all, I was wondering if I should get that one out of there and put it in another tank? I know I need to get that ammonia down ASAP... what else can I do besides the water changes and the one dose of the chemical (using Kordon AmQuel Plus Ammonia Detoxifier/ conditioner)? The other fish so far are behaving alright.

5 gal tank tests 0 on the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. I put about 10 of the babies in there for the moment.. to get them out of the 29 gal tank.

 

[catbirdie]

KittyKat.. just to add to above info, I have an updated reading on the 29 gal tank about 12 hours from the previous. The ammonia level dropped to .25 ppm and the nitrite level went to .25 ppm, 0 on the nitrate. Still want to know the answers to above questions tho. Yellow guppy hanging out either on bottom or top not much movetment but every so often..other fish still seem fine.

 

[KittyKat]

The best thing you can do for the neons is to increase their numbers into the 8-15 region, very slowly.

If you're doing daily water changes, that ammonia is not from the babies, but from your tap water (remember the readings you took?). Yes, you should be able to move a couple of fish from the 29 gal to the 10 gal per week. Given your tap water readings, I would probably double dose with an ammonia-dealing dechlorinator (Prime, Stress Coat). AmQuel Plus is probably fine too, but I don't know what exactly it does to nitrite and nitrate.

The other thing you can do is make sure you have a lot of plants, as they will help with the ammonia and keep the water generally more "stable".

I can not recommend anything for the guppy.. it is probably suffering from the ammonia, but guppies are usually generally weak and prone to a lot of problems.

 

[catbirdie]

Hi KittyKat..

I’m going to do a separate post on the sick guppy but wanted to give you an update on all the fishy doings here.

The 10 gal w/6 neons doing well

The 5 gal was housing a bunch of the platy fry that I have been holding for a new tank I purchased a 40 gal... where they are transferred now.

The 40 gal is up and running, moved those fish over the other day, so far so good. Followed the fishless cycle and a lot of pinned posts on the board.

Now to the bigger story. The 29 gal tank is still problematic. I have in there three guppies only at this point, and about 6 platy fry. I have not done a water change for about 4 days, I was using Prime to try and get the levels better. However, I finally did a change last night as I don’t seem to be getting anywhere with just the Prime. This morning’s readings are:


Ammonia: .25 ppm
Nitrite 2.0 ppm
Nitrate 5.0 ppm

This has pretty much been the story, the ammonia was higher earlier in the week, so that’s down a touch, but not the nitrites.

The fish are acting better in there than a few days ago..but I did have to remove one yellow guppy and the two adult platy’s. The yellow guppy seems neurologically damaged, I don’t know how to explain it but will in the separate post. The female platy was hiding for two days on the bottom seemed to stop eating. I ended up removing the three and putting them in the 5 gal tank that I knew was as good established tank. The platy’s are doing well in the 5 gal tank and have recovered fast. The guppy however is the same, struggling.

My plan is to hopefully move the fish from the 5 gal back to the 29 when it’s finally alright... not to leave the fish in the 5 gal.

I’m not sure what to do with that 29 gal tank. The fish seem to be better when I do a water change versus just putting in the Prime. So do you recommend more water changes?

I do need to point out that the problem with the ammonia and nitrite was IMO from the babies there were a lot in there. I wasn’t changing the water until the levels came up, that’s when I started. I know my water quality has unhealthy levels, but it all worked out for the 10 gal and the other tanks.. They do level off and become safe. I still do have the two snails in that tank as well. I just can’t figure out why I can’t get that tank under control. Now that there are fewer fish, no more fry to be coming.. I feel I have some kind of “control” to get it back to rights. I do have some plants in there as well. Water changes or something else, what do you think?

 

[KittyKat]

So are there any fish in the 29 gallon now?

The problem with the guppy and platys sounds like what is caused by long term ammonia or nitrite exposure.