Another Newbie Again

I need to ask some questions about the 29 gal tank and what's going on there. First of all I have a baby Sunburst Platy about 2 weeks old :). As a reminder, I have 4 guppies and 2 other adult Sunburst Platy fish. I also noticed another baby one just this week, so I'd say a week old on this one. I think my Platy fish is preggo forever? What's the story.. how long does this go on? LOL She's quite large.

The tank to me has a little bit of a green hue to it, I'm pretty sensitive so can smell the algae. Still has the plastic plants as I have not gotten to the store yet to replace them.

It's been almost 3 weeks since I vacuumed the tank. I'd like to do the gravel.. but concerned about the babies. Advise? Water tests good by the strips but will get the other kit tomorrow.

The fish act pretty ok in there.. not nervous or hiding like the neons. They're swimming around, seemingly happy. My concern is the algae (I have two of those same snails in that tank also, the gold mystery and black. I've learned not to leave the light on too many hours. Water temp is the same as the others.

I would like to put some fresh plants in that tank as well. So with babies and all, will wait to hear your feedback. :)

Also do you have an online source for shopping for things like filters and such you prefer, can you buy live plants online and if so where? I ask because it is often difficult for me to get out.

Thank you much :) :)
 
>>>..so if there are no fish or any other live animals in the 5 gallon right now, do move the filter from that into the 10 gallon or you will get ammonia and nitrite in there. Chlorine kills the good bacteria, so make sure you only clean the filters in old tank water, not under the tap.

*****Right now, the 5 gal has nothing live in it. I did replace the blue carbon filter (Marineland Filter Cartridge)(OK mistake didn't know then). the other wheel filter is still in there. I rinsed the gravel... instead of vacuuming as it is such a small tank and was due for a vacuum ..and replaced the water as well.... was clear for a couple of days. The water in that 5 gal tank now is very cloudy. I put dechlorinator in that new water. I'm wondering what to do with that tank. Will the cloudiness clear out or is it all no good because that older bio wheel filter is still in there from when the neons were in the tank. When you said take the old filter and put in the new tank did you mean the bio wheel or the filter cartridge?
Ah, the fact that it's a HOTB (hang on the back) filter with a bio-wheel makes a difference. In these filters, most of the bacteria live on the wheel.. and as far as I am aware, can not survive submerged under water because the oxygen content of the water is lower than what the bacteria are used to. If you want to keep these guys alive, move the whole filter onto the 10 gallon: it should not harm the tetras to have two filters running on there. This way, when you want to add fish to the 5 gallon again (for example, it is a nice tank for a single male Betta or a nice shrimp tank), all you have to do is fill the 5 gallon with water and move the smaller filter from the 10 gallon to the 5 gallon.. but if you do this, you will need to move the snail to the 10 gallon too, while the filter is in there.

My neons that I moved into the 10 gal are still nervous. They're not relaxed. I wasn't able to go the store today to get a better test kit, I just still have the strips, which test all is alright, just so you know, even though I have learned now this might not be accurate. My plan is to get the type that was suggested tomorrow, as well as a few live plants.

Should I do anything to the 10 gal with the neons to help make them less stressed? They've only been in the tank 4 days. I did plan on adding a couple of fresh plants if I can tomorrow, or should I leave them undisturbed for a while?
What are your water stats in there? Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH? If you get any ammonia reading (so if it is not 0 ppm), then that is what is making them stressed.

Yes, do add more plants, regardless of what the readings are.

When you plant, you need to remove any weights or pots that the plants may have, then spread them out a bit (say plant them 1-5 cm apart). Depending on the type, you may only need to remove any dead leaves for rosette plants, or trim any stem plants and mosses occasionally.. you'll figure it out as you go along. Some LFS do sell non-aquatic plants as aquatic, and these will rot under water, so do decide which plants you want, then go and buy those specific ones, not just any one you like the look of. It will probably be easier if you go into the shop with a list of plant names.. Demanding plants need a lot more care than undemanding plants, so it is best to stay away from those until you have more experience.
I called Petsmart and they have the Java Moss, Java fern, and cryptocoryne.
The first two are good, they're nice plants. Both of those need to be tied with cotton string, nylon string or rubber bands to a piece of bogwood or a rock. If you bury the fern's rhizome under the substrate, it will rot!

Some Crypts are demanding, so careful about which ones you get.. Cryptocoryne beckettii and C. wendtii (all morphs) are usually safe choices and are most common.

Another question that's pressing on my mind is how often do I feed the two snails?
What species are they?
I purchased them at Petsmart also, and called them today to ask :/
They told me they're called Mystery Snails.. on is gold the other black.
Aka, apple snails. 1/4 wafer each, every other day, should be enough.. but the LFS really should *not* have sold you those snails because I think a 2*1*1 ft tank is the absolute minimum they should have and their water requirements are exactly the opposite of what neons like. Make sure that you have a really tight fitting lid because they will try to escape (they lay eggs outside of water).

Carbon is not much use on an every day basis so you're better replacing it with some sponge or ceramic media when you get a new filter. Carbon is very useful for removing the remains of medication after a treatment, but if used regularly, it is used up after about 1-7 days usually.. so doesn't actually do anything except provide a place for bacteria to live, which sponges and ceramic bio media are better at.

***OK the 10 gal tank where the neons currently are has a new bio bag as a filter.
Hmm... what exactly is that? Sounds suspicious! ;)

>>>The way you transferred the fish is fine, it is the filter we are worried about because without a source of ammonia (fish or household ammonia) in the 5 gallon, the filter bacteria will die and the filter will become useless at keeping the water clean for the fish. Also, the new filter in the big tank was useless at keeping the water clean for the fish because it did not have any bacteria in it, which is why it is important to keep checking ammonia and nitrite, which must both remain at 0 ppm or very close to 0 ppm or they will harm fish.

***what confuses me about this is when I brought the fish home from the store I was putting them in a new tank.. not in a tank that already had fish in it. (Thet went into the 5 gal at that time). The told me it might get cloudy for a few days and then that would be alright. Now this transition to the 10 gal it is still very clear. The fish are hiding a lot... and seem nervous to me.
Cloudiness is often a bacterial bloom, which may be caused by ammonia.. 3 fish in a 10 gallon is a much lower concentration of ammonia producing machines than 3 fish in a 5 gallon.

I need to ask some questions about the 29 gal tank and what's going on there. First of all I have a baby Sunburst Platy about 2 weeks old :). As a reminder, I have 4 guppies and 2 other adult Sunburst Platy fish. I also noticed another baby one just this week, so I'd say a week old on this one. I think my Platy fish is preggo forever? What's the story.. how long does this go on? LOL She's quite large.
Guppies and platys give birth once every 4-6 weeks. A female will normally keep giving birth to young for up to 3-9 months after she has been separated from males because most livebearers have the ability to store sperm. Normal drop sizes are 10-100 fry, older fish may produce up to 150 in one go. They will eat their own young, which is why you have only been able to find a couple of the quickest babies.. and babies are smart enough to hide until they big enough to not get eaten.

The tank to me has a little bit of a green hue to it, I'm pretty sensitive so can smell the algae. Still has the plastic plants as I have not gotten to the store yet to replace them.
Algae it is. If you do not have your lights on timers, put them on timers and have them on for 6-8 hours. If it doesn't clean up, you may have to do a blackout.

It's been almost 3 weeks since I vacuumed the tank. I'd like to do the gravel.. but concerned about the babies. Advise? Water tests good by the strips but will get the other kit tomorrow.
That is up to you.. I can't advise on this one.

I would like to put some fresh plants in that tank as well. So with babies and all, will wait to hear your feedback. :)
Java moss and hornwort are great for fry survival.

Also do you have an online source for shopping for things like filters and such you prefer, can you buy live plants online and if so where? I ask because it is often difficult for me to get out.
I take it you're in US? Someone else should be able to help.
 
live plants are brilliant for fry, someone told me that the plants have micro organisms living on them that fry love to eat. mine love them!
 
Hi Kitty Kat



>>>>Yes, do add more plants, regardless of what the readings are.
Java Moss, Java fern,
The first two are good, they're nice plants. Both of those need to be tied with cotton string,


*****Picked up the plants late today and will put them in the tanks tomorrow...because I want to clean the 29 gal first.

Aka, apple snails. 1/4 wafer each, every other day, should be enough.. but the LFS really should *not* have sold you those snails because I think a 2*1*1 ft tank is the absolute minimum they should have and their water requirements are exactly the opposite of what neons like. Make sure that you have a really tight fitting lid because they will try to escape (they lay eggs outside of water).

****Well, I'm glad you told me all this and what they are now.. Not good that they have different requirements then the neons :(. Maybe in the future when I get the tanks more straightened out I should move them out of the 10 gal tank?


>>>The way you transferred the fish is fine, it is the filter we are worried about because without a source of ammonia (fish or household ammonia) in the 5 gallon, the filter bacteria will die and the filter will become useless at keeping the water clean for the fish. Also, the new filter in the big tank was useless at keeping the water clean for the fish because it did not have any bacteria in it, which is why it is important to keep checking ammonia and nitrite, which must both remain at 0 ppm or very close to 0 ppm or they will harm fish.

*****I did get the more comprehensive test kit today. Here are the results: Ammonia .50 (I was very upset to see this as the strips tested completely safe) the nitrite was .0, the nitrate 0 ppm but the pH was 7.6. So this is the environment for the poor neons :( I explained the situation to them and the fact that I didn't put the filter in there from the old tank so they told me to use a product called Nutrafin Cycle and hope I can save them. They've been in there since Sunday.

>>>>Guppies and platys give birth once every 4-6 weeks. A female will normally keep giving birth to young for up to 3-9 months after she has been separated from males because most livebearers have the ability to store sperm. Normal drop sizes are 10-100 fry, older fish may produce up to 150 in one go. They will eat their own young, which is why you have only been able to find a couple of the quickest babies.. and babies are smart enough to hide until they big enough to not get eaten.


******Thanks again Kitty Kat as I'm getting an education and a half. I was looking at the 29 gal tank with the babies.. I counted 4 new ones on top of the one from two weeks ago. But I feel very badly about the neons.
 
Hi Crazycat Lady...

>>>>live plants are brilliant for fry, someone told me that the plants have micro organisms living on them that fry love to eat. mine love them!

I picked up some plants today, tomorrow I want to vacuum that gravel. After that, I'll put a couple of plants in there. It's so much fun watching them. Last night I went to check them at 2 AM for a few minutes the next thing I knew it was 3 AM!!-ha! How many fish do you have.. and what did you do with your baby fish? Did you leave them in the same tank or eventually move them?
 
Hi Crazycat Lady...

>>>>live plants are brilliant for fry, someone told me that the plants have micro organisms living on them that fry love to eat. mine love them!

I picked up some plants today, tomorrow I want to vacuum that gravel. After that, I'll put a couple of plants in there. It's so much fun watching them. Last night I went to check them at 2 AM for a few minutes the next thing I knew it was 3 AM!!-ha! How many fish do you have.. and what did you do with your baby fish? Did you leave them in the same tank or eventually move them?

I have about 25 baby guppies. although the're 20 days old today and far from babies now! i have a 20l tank upstairs(bought for fry)which i somehow managed to persuade the mother to give birth in. then mother moved back to main tank. they will be moving on to friends tanks soon. every now and then i spot a baby hiding in a plant in the main tank, so i just scoop it up and put it upstairs to give it a better chance.
 
Aka, apple snails. 1/4 wafer each, every other day, should be enough.. but the LFS really should *not* have sold you those snails because I think a 2*1*1 ft tank is the absolute minimum they should have and their water requirements are exactly the opposite of what neons like. Make sure that you have a really tight fitting lid because they will try to escape (they lay eggs outside of water).

****Well, I'm glad you told me all this and what they are now.. Not good that they have different requirements then the neons :(. Maybe in the future when I get the tanks more straightened out I should move them out of the 10 gal tank?
Well, the snails and platys do like the same water.. so maybe move both snails into the 29 gallon? That's also a really nice size tank for them :)

>>>The way you transferred the fish is fine, it is the filter we are worried about because without a source of ammonia (fish or household ammonia) in the 5 gallon, the filter bacteria will die and the filter will become useless at keeping the water clean for the fish. Also, the new filter in the big tank was useless at keeping the water clean for the fish because it did not have any bacteria in it, which is why it is important to keep checking ammonia and nitrite, which must both remain at 0 ppm or very close to 0 ppm or they will harm fish.

*****I did get the more comprehensive test kit today. Here are the results: Ammonia .50 (I was very upset to see this as the strips tested completely safe) the nitrite was .0, the nitrate 0 ppm but the pH was 7.6. So this is the environment for the poor neons :( I explained the situation to them and the fact that I didn't put the filter in there from the old tank so they told me to use a product called Nutrafin Cycle and hope I can save them. They've been in there since Sunday.
It is now more important than ever to move the filter from the 5 gallon onto the 10 gallon, because it might still have some bacteria in it. Established filters have lots and lots of really good bacteria in them. These bacteria use up the ammonia and convert it into nitrite, then they use up nitrite and convert it into harmless nitrate. New filters do not have these bacteria, so they must collect some from the water, then let them grow.. this process takes 6-8 weeks usually.

For now, *move the old filter to the new tank*, feed only every other day, as much as they will completely finish in 20 seconds and do water changes to keep ammonia well below 0.25 ppm.

The "bacteria in a bottle" products like the Nutrafin Cycle often do not do anything at all or mask symptoms of problems.
 
Oh dear, sorry to hear about that reading. Yes big deffo on what kittykat said. You are now a water changing machine :p.
Stock up on dechlorinator coz u don't want to start culturing the bacteria then kill them with it.
With regards to the nutrafin cycle, I have never used anything like that so I can't comment sorry xx

Watch how much you feed them. I was amazed at how little they actually need! That was my downfall when I was having level issues X

Keep testing the ammonia to keep a close eye on it x

You're not the first person that this has happened too and certainly won't be the last. The important thing is that you've been clever enough to ask for advice! I had no clue abt cycling when I started!
Keep us up to date with progress xx
 
>>>>> the snails and platys do like the same water.. so maybe move both snails into the 29 gallon? That's also a really nice size tank for them :)

****Hi Kitty Kat..
I already have two snails in the 29 gal tank so at some point could add these two more?


>>>>It is now more important than ever to move the filter from the 5 gallon onto the 10 gallon, because it might still have some bacteria in it. Established filters have lots and lots of really good bacteria in them. These bacteria use up the ammonia and convert it into nitrite, then they use up nitrite and convert it into harmless nitrate. New filters do not have these bacteria, so they must collect some from the water, then let them grow.. this process takes 6-8 weeks usually.

*****That blue filter I don't have anymore, long gone. When I cleaned out that 5 gal tank, I washed the gravel, put new water in and a new filter cartridge. The only thing I have in there unwashed is the wheel which is not sitting in the same water as it was since I changed everything (cloudy water as of now in that 5 gal). That wheel does not fit the 10 gal tank with the neons.. it's a different kind of tank.

For now, *move the old filter to the new tank*, feed only every other day, as much as they will completely finish in 20 seconds and do water changes to keep ammonia well below 0.25 ppm.

*******I don't know if you mean I should take that wheel out and just hang it somehow in the new 10 gal tank.. please let me know and do a partial water change this afternoon for sure :( I hope the fishes make it!

>>>>>The "bacteria in a bottle" products like the Nutrafin Cycle often do not do anything at all or mask symptoms of problems.

:(
 
***HI CrazyCat Lady...

You are now a water changing machine :p.
Stock up on dechlorinator coz u don't want to start culturing the bacteria then kill them with it.
With regards to the nutrafin cycle, I have never used anything like that so I can't comment sorry xx

****Yes, will do a partial water change with dechlorinator for sure :(

Watch how much you feed them. I was amazed at how little they actually need! That was my downfall when I was having level issues X

Keep testing the ammonia to keep a close eye on it x

*****You know I will, I'm very worried about them .. keeping a close eye. They did come up all three of them and eat this morning which I felt better about but now Kitty Kat tells me the product only masks symptoms so will hope the water change and testing will help, waiting for a reply from her on my filter issue/question.

***I guess today will be clean the tanks day.

>>>>You're not the first person that this has happened too and certainly won't be the last. The important thing is that you've been clever enough to ask for advice! I had no clue abt cycling when I started!
Keep us up to date with progress xx

*****Thanks much :) I hope we can save them despite these problems!!


[/quote]
 
The bacteria live on the old wheel. The wheel can not work without the filter. Take the old filter (with the wheel attached), hope (or pray, if you're into that) that it still has some bacteria on it and hang the whole filter (with the wheel in place, so the filter pours water over it) onto the new tank.

Wheel has bacteria, wheel can not work without filter, so treat filter and wheel as one item.
 
Since I had already put the nutrafin cycle product in, which was a three day process, I was waiting to see how this played out before I wrote back in. Here are the current readings: Ammonia 0 ppm Nitrite 2.0 ppm and the Nitrate 10 ppm. The neons are still alive as of this moment. They do come up to eat now as well. I'm wondering what if anything I should do next. I did put the wheel in. They acted all stressed out.. hiding and flinching for several hours. So I took that out. I suppose if I hadn't done the nutrafin cycle it would have been alright, but adding the wheel really made them sick at that point. Maybe it was too much bacteria? Anyway, I'm wondering if I should do a partial water change now that the cycle is finished for a couple of days? Or just leave them be or what? The 5 gal tank they originally were in is not cloudy anymore, and tests fine. My 29 gal tests alright also, I have a lot of babies in there I think about 10 at this point. I suppose I have to separate the Sunburst Platy's, so will want to talk to you about that. I was hoping instead of putting one (at some point) in the 5 gal, that if my 10 gal with the neons levels off, and the neons survive, (questionable I know :( ) I could add a platy to that tank? To go from a 29 gal tank to a 5 gal tank I feel badly for the Platy. Then of course there are all those babies of different sizes. Well, that's my update on the fish.
 
Hi Crazycat Lady...

******I've really been burning the candle at both ends, sorry I didn't get back to you on this part of the post.

>>>>live plants are brilliant for fry, someone told me that the plants have micro organisms living on them that fry love to eat. mine love them!

*****It's really cute to watch them pecking at the plants if that terminology fits. I can't believe how many are in my 29 gal tank now. Every time I look like you said, I see another one even smaller. The first one which is three weeks old at this point, is a big shot now, eats with the full grown fish.. swimming to the top rather than catching pieces as they fall a bit. It seems to me all the newer babies or as they are called fry I guess, seem to have more courage than my first one.. they swim much more freely around rather than hiding behind plants. The adult guppies and Platy's don't seem too bothered by them. I didn't expect such a "hatchery" so soon...LOL.

>>>>I have about 25 baby guppies. although the're 20 days old today and far from babies now! i have a 20l tank upstairs(bought for fry)which i somehow managed to persuade the mother to give birth in. then mother moved back to main tank. they will be moving on to friends tanks soon. every now and then i spot a baby hiding in a plant in the main tank, so i just scoop it up and put it upstairs to give it a better chance.

****Sounds like you have your hands full, but at least friends who will take the babies, so far no luck on my end that way. I love watching them but haven't quite figured out how to approach this issue of so many more fish and more to come of course.. I've been more consumed with the neon situation.. Maybe I should see if there's a local fish club and if anyone will take some. Gee when we bought the fish, and I asked about babies, they told me not to worry about that as they usually eat them.. well, we have plenty here.
 
Since I had already put the nutrafin cycle product in, which was a three day process, I was waiting to see how this played out before I wrote back in. Here are the current readings: Ammonia 0 ppm Nitrite 2.0 ppm and the Nitrate 10 ppm. The neons are still alive as of this moment. They do come up to eat now as well. I'm wondering what if anything I should do next.
Those nitrites are far too high, you're still a water changing machine trying to keep them below 0.25 ppm.. nitrite is not as toxic as ammonia, but is still quite harmful.

I did put the wheel in. They acted all stressed out.. hiding and flinching for several hours. So I took that out. I suppose if I hadn't done the nutrafin cycle it would have been alright, but adding the wheel really made them sick at that point. Maybe it was too much bacteria?
It's not possible for too much bacteria.. maybe they just freaked out at a new object in there.

Anyway, I'm wondering if I should do a partial water change now that the cycle is finished for a couple of days? Or just leave them be or what?
The cycle is not complete until ammonia and nitrite remain at 0 ppm while you feed normal amounts of food.

The 5 gal tank they originally were in is not cloudy anymore, and tests fine.
Without a source of ammonia feeding the filter bacteria, it won't be able to sustain any life.. I do recommend that if you plan to add stock to it soon, you add household ammonia to it to feed the bacteria. Just be aware that light + ammonia = algae, so you'll have to keep the lights off.

My 29 gal tests alright also, I have a lot of babies in there I think about 10 at this point. I suppose I have to separate the Sunburst Platy's, so will want to talk to you about that. I was hoping instead of putting one (at some point) in the 5 gal, that if my 10 gal with the neons levels off, and the neons survive, (questionable I know :( ) I could add a platy to that tank? To go from a 29 gal tank to a 5 gal tank I feel badly for the Platy. Then of course there are all those babies of different sizes. Well, that's my update on the fish.
Why do you need to separate them? The 10 gallon will take the platy, but you may be compromising on ideal conditions for one or the other.

As your 5 gallon is now, the same thing will happen to it as happened to the 10 gallon, if you add fish to it. You need to make sure that there are enough bacteria in on the wheel before you add any fish. Read about fishless cycling in the beginners' resource in the newbie forum, and if you like, have a look at my 60 litre/cycle log (link is in my signature).
 
>>>>Those nitrites are far too high, you're still a water changing machine trying to keep them below 0.25 ppm.. nitrite is not as toxic as ammonia, but is still quite harmful.

>>>>I did put the wheel in. They acted all stressed out.. hiding and flinching for several hours. So I took that out. I suppose if I hadn't done the nutrafin cycle it would have been alright, but adding the wheel really made them sick at that point. Maybe it was too much bacteria?[/quote]
>>>>It's not possible for too much bacteria.. maybe they just freaked out at a new object in there.


******Kitty Kat,I did a 50% water change in there today. I need to retest in the morning. I'ved been reading plenty of the pinned topics for the nitrogen cycle, fishless cycling, fish in cycling, beginners resources, others and your link. I need to re-read some of this tomorrow, but wanted to ask a couple of questions. If the nitrite level is still very high later when I test, I was wondering if I should also do the following as well as the water changes:

*****I was reading about putting an extra filter in an already established tank so it can be used for another. Should I add one to the 29 gal tank to move when ready to the 10 gal with the struggling neons? ( realize this is what you were explaining to me me with the wheel). If so, how long do you leave the filter in there before it's considered ready to transport to another tank?

*****Also I do have an ornamental shell decoration in the 29 gal tank, should I put that in the 10 gal tank to help with the good bacteria?

>>>>>Without a source of ammonia feeding the filter bacteria, it won't be able to sustain any life.. I do recommend that if you plan to add stock to it soon, you add household ammonia to it to feed the bacteria. Just be aware that light + ammonia = algae, so you'll have to keep the lights off.

*****OK.. thanks. I don't keep ammonia in the house as I am sensitive to chemcials, is it an option to add an established filter I make up as I described above from the 29 gal tank for the 5 gal also? If not, will work it out with the ammonia.

>>>My 29 gal tests alright also, I have a lot of babies in there I think about 10 at this point. I suppose I have to separate the Sunburst Platy's, Why do you need to separate them? The 10 gallon will take the platy, but you may be compromising on ideal conditions for one or the other.

*****It was suggested to me by someone in person I know to separate them because of the constant breeding issue... but it doesn't make sense anyway because there will be plenty more of that going on with all the other fish I imagine.

>>>>>As your 5 gallon is now, the same thing will happen to it as happened to the 10 gallon, if you add fish to it. You need to make sure that there are enough bacteria in on the wheel before you add any fish. Read about fishless cycling in the beginners' resource in the newbie forum, and if you like, have a look at my 60 litre/cycle log (link is in my signature).

***Right I've been reading for hours, great info on this site. Need to digest it all, but super well explained information. Thank you again.
 

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