Another Fishless Cycle

[Vyncenze]

Hello all.

I am after some advice on my fishless cycle, which has been running for three weeks or so. My numbers so far are:

Starting with homebase ammonia

Day 1 - Ammonia 4, Nitrite 0.
Day 2 - Ammonia 4, Nitrite 0.
Day 3 - Ammonia 4, Nitrite 0.
Day 4 - Ammonia 4, Nitrite 0.
Day 5 - Ammonia 4, Nitrite 0.
Day 6 - Ammonia 4ish, Nitrite 0ish (trace, possibly).

Added 20ml of Bacterlife and 10ml of Biomature as they finally arrived today. Will be using Biomature in place of ammonia from now on.

Day 7, day 8 - unable to test as away from home
Day 9 - Ammonia 2-3, Nitrite 1. Added 10 ml of Biomature.
Day 10 - Ammonia ~8, Nitrite 5. Think I overdid the Biomature Nothing added today.

Day 12 - Ammonia 4, Nitrite 5+, Nitrate 5 Added 5ml BioMature and 15ml Bacterlife
Day 13 - Ammonia 4, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 5. Nothing added

Day 15 - Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5+++, Nitrate 5
Day 16 - Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5+++, Nitrate 5-10, Added 8.5ml BioMature
Day 17 - Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5+++, Nitrate 5
Day 18 - Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5+++, Nitrate 5
Day 19 - Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5+++, Nitrate 5-10, Added 8.5ml BioMature. Added plants today
Day 20 - Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5+++, Nitrate 5-10.
Day 21 - Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5+++, Nitrate 5-10. Added BacterLife.
Day 23 - Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5-10, Nitrate 5-10.

Went to my local MA today and they kindly gave me a bunch of ceramic rings out of their filter system. Have added these to the juwel filter.

Day 24 - Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5-10, Nitrate 5-10. Added 3ml Ammonia.

As you can probably guess, have copied this from another forum, and a couple of days are missing. I did change over to BioMature from pure ammonia, and the advice on the bottle there is to stop adding it after nitrites hit 5-10, but I have still been adding an ammonia source every 2-3 days to keep the colony fed.

It seems to me to be taking a long time for nitrites to drop/nitrates to rise? Or does it all look normal? Tank is 180l, temp 27ish, and pH about 7.4.

Also, my nitrates of 5-10 is lower than what comes out of the tap (about 15-20) - will this be purely down to the plants, or is something else at work?

Any advice very much appreciated!

Thanks

Joe

 

[rdd1952]

First, hello and welcome to the forum.

From looking up Biomature, it says one of it's uses is fishless cycling. It apparently is a bacteria in a bottle product. Even if it works, you would still need to add ammonia. Otherwise, there would be no food source for the bacteria thus they will die off. Just reading Waterlife's website on it leads me to believe that it isn't worth much. It also says that it "Keeps filtration bacteria alive, should your system ever be empty of fishes/invertebrates for more than 24 hours. e.g. in a quarantine/hospital tank." Nitrifying bacteria die off at a slow rate, about 5 to 12% per day. So there really isn't much worry if the tank is left 24 hours without an ammonia source. You would only lose a minimal amount of bacteria. As a general rule, bacteria in a bottle products are pretty useless.

From looking at the chart, I would be very sceptical as to whether the BioMature or Bacterlife have done anything. You basically went from day 13 to day 21 without any change in nitrite or nitrate. If the product was working, you should have seen some significant change in that time especially with no more ammonia being added. The eventual drop is most likely from just a normal building of bacteria as you would expect to see without the use of chemicals.

Personally, I would go back to a straight fishless cycle. The chemicals aren't harming anything but certainly don't appear to be doing any good either. As far as the nitrates in your tank being lower than your tap water, that actually should not be possible. Plants use some nitrate but unless you are very heavily planted, they wouldn't use enough for the nitrate to drop.

 

[Vyncenze]

Hi.

Thanks very much for the reply.

BacterLife is bacteria in a bottle and probably useless, but only cost £3 so I gave it a go. BioMature is basically ammonia, so I have been using it as a replacement for household ammonia as it was recommended to me on the PFK forum. The dosage of 8.5ml takes me up to about 3-4ppm ammonia in the tank, but this is then all turned to nitrite within 24 hours, hence the 0 readings for the last 10 days or so.

I have been advised I should keep adding ammonia (BioMature) every day, butit seems to me this isn't needed if the bacteria can survive several days without a food source, as all I would be doing is adding more and more nitrite to an amount which is already well of the scale?

I will happily switch back from BioM to household ammonia if that would be best, but from mylimited understanding it's the nitrite->nitrate part of the cycle which I'm stuck on now, would the the ammonia source make any diffeence to that?

Edit: My 5+++s represent the fact my test kit only goes up to 5, but actually the level is much much higher (I did some tests diluting tank water with tap, and it came out over 20, so I did a few small water changes to bring it back down a little...)

 

[rdd1952]

Ok, I misundersttod what the Biomature is. It didn't really state on their site that it was ammonia. In that case and the fact that you were still addiing it, you would seem to be ok but the lack of nitrate is concerning. The transformation ratio of ammonia>nitrite>nitrate is 1>2.7>3.7 so 1 ppm of ammonia eventually should become 3.7 ppm of nitrate. The fact that you only have 5-10 ppm of nitrate doesn't seem to add up.

I would suggest a large water change to get everything basically back to zero (although I guess that would maybe actually raise your nitrate if it's higher from the tap). Then add the ammonia source, which ever you want and see how long it takes it to drop back to 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite.

 

[Vyncenze]

Thanks again rdd. It's true, BioMature doesn't actually say anywhere that it contains ammonia - maybe they're worried that would scare off novice fishkeepers who don't know about cycling...?

Anyway, was planning to take your advice and change water today, but....

Day 25 - Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5+, Nitrate 40+ !!!!!

So looks like finally getting there now. Have added a little more ammonia and will test again tomorrow, hopefully I'm on the homeward straight now....

 

[paulbr1]

Hi, don't forget to check the old PH, from reading on here and my current cycle most people have a PH drop round about day 23-26 and that can slow the cycle especially if it gets to the low 6's - just a thought.

Paul.

 

[Vyncenze]

Ok completely confused now. Added 4ml Ammonia after testing yesterday. Today:

Day 26 - Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5+, Nitrate 5-10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is that possible? I tested twice yesterday and got deep reds for nitrates both times, at least 40. Have tested twice today and got 5-10. I do have plants in the tank but nowhere near enough to use up all those nitrates I'm sure. I don't have a nitrate removal sponge, and I haven't changed any water or added any chemicals etc. The only thing that I dd between yesterday and today's tests was to add EasyCarbo, as I do everyday.

Completely lost now....

 

[paulbr1]

I would be happy with the Ammonia dropping like that, Nitrite will spike when the Ammo starts to get cleared quickly.

As to your Nitrate I find it is tetchy to test properly and I use the API kit - it is easy to mess it up and your plants could be taking in a little - I usually shake the bottles and the tube until my hand nearly falls off.

Paul.

 

[Vyncenze]

I would be happy with the Ammonia dropping like that, Nitrite will spike when the Ammo starts to get cleared quickly.

As to your Nitrate I find it is tetchy to test properly and I use the API kit - it is easy to mess it up and your plants could be taking in a little - I usually shake the bottles and the tube until my hand nearly falls off.

Paul.

Hi Paul, thanks

Yeah I use the API kit too. The thing is I've had tons of practice getting a reading of 5-10, which is why double checked yesterday when I finally got a nice high reading, I'm certain it was a true reading of 40 or more. Thought I was on the final straight there, so just can't understand where it's all gone today!

I am happy with the ammonia processing, but then I've had that since about day 14 I think. It's the nitrites that are causing me grief

Joe

BTW - checked pH as you suggested - 7.6ish. Also have two thermometers checking temp, which is a steady 27.

 

[Smoothy]

Definitely bump that temperature up into the 80's ... I have mine at 86f = 30c

 

[Vyncenze]

Definitely bump that temperature up into the 80's ... I have mine at 86f = 30c

Hi. Thanks, I'd love to do that but my heater can't keep up

 

[Miss Wiggle]

you're putting too much emphasis on the nitrate test reading, nitrate tests are notoriously unreliable often yielding wacky responses, also nitrate is not evenly distributed throughout the tanks water so a sample from the bottom of the tank can read higher than one from the top (crazy huh?!).

Just focus on what ammonia and nitrite are doing, i would be very suspicious of the bio mature, do you have any proof that it actually contains ammonia?? If it doesn't say it on the bottle or on the website then how do you know that it is!? Any chemical like that has to be labelled up clearly by law, if it isn't then it leads me to believe it isn't what you think it is. I would go back to regular household ammonia as you know that it actually does what it's meant to!

 

[Vyncenze]

you're putting too much emphasis on the nitrate test reading, nitrate tests are notoriously unreliable often yielding wacky responses, also nitrate is not evenly distributed throughout the tanks water so a sample from the bottom of the tank can read higher than one from the top (crazy huh?!).

Just focus on what ammonia and nitrite are doing, i would be very suspicious of the bio mature, do you have any proof that it actually contains ammonia?? If it doesn't say it on the bottle or on the website then how do you know that it is!? Any chemical like that has to be labelled up clearly by law, if it isn't then it leads me to believe it isn't what you think it is. I would go back to regular household ammonia as you know that it actually does what it's meant to!

Hi.

Thanks for this. I have actually stopped using the BioMature and moved to ammonia, but it seems to me that ammonia isn't really the issue at this stage? It was recommended by one of the senior moderators on the PFK forum, and I'm quite confident that it contains ammonia since it's giving me an ammonia reading when I put it in.

Thank you for the nitrate info. I have been taking samples from the same "bit" of water every day, it just seems really odd that yesterday I had two readings (6 hours apart) that were so solidly red on the scale, and then today I'm back to next to nothing. As you say though, I will keep testing..

 

[waterdrop]

(Vyncenze wrote)

I will happily switch back from BioM to household ammonia if that would be best, but from mylimited understanding it's the nitrite->nitrate part of the cycle which I'm stuck on now, would the the ammonia source make any diffeence to that?

Reading this comment reveals that you are thinking of the process as more like chemistry (something predictable and that can be often speeded up.) I think it helps to relax a little and realize that you are trying to grow live little animals here (allbeit very small little bacteria!) and that they are just going to take their good ole' time about it, being very unpredictable and taking quite a while to enlarge their colonies. We try to optimize things but in truth it doesn't speed things up much.

The 3 to 6 week averages you hear for fishless cycling are often quite optimistic. We routinely sit through beginners here every month who take a good 2 months for the whole process. The main problems are often the unpredictable nature of the initial inoculation of the correct 2 species of bacteria (basically completely out of your control) and the difficulty of controlling pH and temperature, things like that.

In your case, we'd not expect the fishless cycle to be going at top speed because your heating system is not up to giving you the "optimal bacterial soup" (84F/29C) and your pH, while pretty good at 7.6, is not up in the optimal 8.0 to 8.4 range either. It really comes down to a patience thing. At 3 weeks we'd not be expecting to N-Bac population to be anywhere near big enough to be processing the 13+ppm of nitrite(NO2) yet, and it may take several more weeks to do so.

Its good that you're switching back to the "known" ammonia source and I completely agree with MW about the nitrates(NO3.) They are just a red herring that confuses beginners to no end and are not usually an "action item" to be worried about during fishless cycling (except if they get way up, say 160ppm+ near the end, which would cry out for a large water change because of the acid effect.)

~~waterdrop~~
ps. Welcome to TFF!
pps. Good morning MW!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

morning WD, bit of a slow day in the office today!