Angel Death (r.i.p)

[paulkat]

Hi all,

Unfortunately this morning I found my sick Angel dead at the bottom of my tank.

I have only had him for two weeks, and about 10 days in he started gulping at the surface and stopped eating.

I took every piece of advice going from the LFS, increased ripple and added air stone as we thought it was lack of oxygen, when that didn't work we tried treating him with medication (for white spot, fungus etc) still no luck.

The problem was that we also have shrimp so we had to use the medication in a bucket with an air stone, so the whole tank has not been treated.

WHAT NEXT....

I don't want my other angel getting lonely , but i'm concerned that maybe I should do something to reduce the risk of any fish getting ill, is a water change sufficient?

There were no signs of disease at all, and as my tank has only been fully cycled for two weeks, do you think the Angel died because the tank wasn't mature enough? My second Angel seems absolutely fine, in fact it was the larger angel that died?

Can Angels be left by themself for a period of time, or should I get him mate right away?

Thanks,

Paul.

PS: all tank stats are perfect.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

There were no signs of disease at all, and as my tank has only been fully cycled for two weeks, do you think the Angel died because the tank wasn't mature enough? My second Angel seems absolutely fine, in fact it was the larger angel that died?

Can Angels be left by themself for a period of time, or should I get him mate right away?

yes angels really need a mature tank, they're fairly delicate. were they in the tank while you were cycling? as high ammonia/nitrite levels can lead to respiratory problems causing the fish to continually gasp at the surface and eventually die (no matter how well oxygenated the water is).

angels are fine kept alone and you risk the life of any new angels adding them to a newly cycled tank so leave him by himself for now.

 

[doresy]

When you have a problem it is better to supply more info....

Ammonia, NitrIte, NitrAte and PH levels (stats ok doesn't mean anything)

Tank size (dimentions as well as capacity would be helpful, especially with Angels)

Other stock

How long your tank has been set up

Planted (real or artificial)

Fish behaviour

With these questions answered it will be easier to help you

 

[paulkat]

There were no signs of disease at all, and as my tank has only been fully cycled for two weeks, do you think the Angel died because the tank wasn't mature enough? My second Angel seems absolutely fine, in fact it was the larger angel that died?

Can Angels be left by themself for a period of time, or should I get him mate right away?

yes angels really need a mature tank, they're fairly delicate. were they in the tank while you were cycling? as high ammonia/nitrite levels can lead to respiratory problems causing the fish to continually gasp at the surface and eventually die (no matter how well oxygenated the water is).

angels are fine kept alone and you risk the life of any new angels adding them to a newly cycled tank so leave him by himself for now.

Sorry didn't mean to post in new to hobby...

thanks for the reply

The angels were added when the tank was fully cycled (fishless), along with 6 pentazona barbs, and now 10 amano shrimp.

The tank is 180 litres.

I thought they couldn't be kept alone?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah a newly cycled tank is not the same as a mature tank and i think that's the problem.

angels can definately be kept alone.

 

[paulkat]

When you have a problem it is better to supply more info....

Ammonia, NitrIte, NitrAte and PH levels (stats ok doesn't mean anything)

Tank size (dimentions as well as capacity would be helpful, especially with Angels)

Other stock

How long your tank has been set up

Planted (real or artificial)

Fish behaviour

With these questions answered it will be easier to help you

Hi dorsey,

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 20-40
PH - 7.5

Water change 25% weekely.

Tank has been fully cycled now for just over 2 weeks.

6 pentazona barbs, 10 amona shrimp, 1 other angel now.

180 litres, 6 real plants, air stone, no co2 added.

Fish behaviour absolutely fine until the larger of 2 angels started gulping at the surface and eventually dies having not not eated for 3-4 days.

Thanks

yeah a newly cycled tank is not the same as a mature tank and i think that's the problem.

angels can definately be kept alone.

thanks miss wiggle, i understand the fact that my is not mature yet, that was my concern.

Would an immature tank possibly cause an angel to be gulping at the surface and stop eating, is this a general sign of illness or stress??

What does an immature tank actually do to a fish to make it ill?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

this topic talks about the differences between a cycled and mature tank

in practice what actually happens is millions of chemical reactions are still going on and as such the tank is not stable, your key factors of ammonia and nitrite should be stable after a fishless cycle but many other things will not be. delicate fish such as angels will not always be able to cope with all the changes, this can stress them out and various reactions can cause all sorts of problems and unexplained deaths.

it's impossible to say what exactly has harmed your angel, however it is proven that high levels of the toxins ammonia and nitrite will damage the respiratory system, often irreparably and the fish will die from it sometimes a short while after sometimes years after. I strongly suspect that some of the other chemical reactions have the same effect as this is what your fish displayed classic symptoms of.

The gasping is a sure sign it couldn't get the oxygen it needed, as you say you put the airstone on and had ripples at the surface and other fish were not suffering so the water was most likely well oxygenated, thus pointing to an internal problem with that particular fish.

obviously a lack of oxygen will stress the fish out considerably, this combined with not eating for a few days could easily kill a fish

 

[paulkat]

this topic talks about the differences between a cycled and mature tank

in practice what actually happens is millions of chemical reactions are still going on and as such the tank is not stable, your key factors of ammonia and nitrite should be stable after a fishless cycle but many other things will not be. delicate fish such as angels will not always be able to cope with all the changes, this can stress them out and various reactions can cause all sorts of problems and unexplained deaths.

it's impossible to say what exactly has harmed your angel, however it is proven that high levels of the toxins ammonia and nitrite will damage the respiratory system, often irreparably and the fish will die from it sometimes a short while after sometimes years after. I strongly suspect that some of the other chemical reactions have the same effect as this is what your fish displayed classic symptoms of.

The gasping is a sure sign it couldn't get the oxygen it needed, as you say you put the airstone on and had ripples at the surface and other fish were not suffering so the water was most likely well oxygenated, thus pointing to an internal problem with that particular fish.

obviously a lack of oxygen will stress the fish out considerably, this combined with not eating for a few days could easily kill a fish

thanks so much for your detailed reply.

the tank still has plenty of room for further stocking and my plan is to add gradually so as not to cause a mini cycle....

How long would you leave a tank after a death before considering any additions, just in case it was a disease, how long should it take for the disease to clear from the water or show up in other fish?

And would you recommend increased water changes at this stage?

 

[doresy]

Ok, so what I said in my earlier post was for the benifit of our resident experts. In my limited experience I agree with Miss Wiggle (dare I not ) in as much that a freshly cycled and planted tank is not considered matured) Also i think I am right in saying that angels need deep tanks, also I know of someone who has had a lone angel for many many years!
One last thing, I think that an airstone depletes the CO2 levels so without co2 injection your plants may suffer. There again I may be talking out of my hat but I'll be put right I'm sure if that's the case

 

[WILDER]

http/www.fishforums.net/Angel-Gulping-At...ce-t194690.html

 

[paulkat]

http/www.fishforums.net/Angel-Gulping-At...ce-t194690.html

that was my thread wilder, he didn't make it.

Are you sure red poo is bad, they have both had it since day one, and i'm sure the others in the fish shop had it as well?

 

[WILDER]

Yes internal parasites will get you some info.

http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/nematodes.shtml

http/www.flubenol.co.uk/flubenol.php

 

[Miss Wiggle]

thanks so much for your detailed reply.

the tank still has plenty of room for further stocking and my plan is to add gradually so as not to cause a mini cycle....

How long would you leave a tank after a death before considering any additions, just in case it was a disease, how long should it take for the disease to clear from the water or show up in other fish?

And would you recommend increased water changes at this stage?

if it was a disease it would really depend on the specific disease in question how long it would take to show up if it has been passed on. Just as in humans different diseases and virus's have different incubation periods they do for fish. I would say after a month or so if your disease free then you should be OK to add some more fish.

Yes I would do increased water changes, as you can see this tank is potentially dangerous for your remaining angel, keeping the water super clean will increase it's chances of survival. As time goes on the tank will stabilise more and more and at roughly 6 months it would be considered mature. I'd say for the next month or so do small water changes twice a week if you can, then revert to weekly monitor the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate levels and the fish's behavious closely in the changeover period.

Ok, so what I said in my earlier post was for the benifit of our resident experts. In my limited experience I agree with Miss Wiggle (dare I not ) in as much that a freshly cycled and planted tank is not considered matured) Also i think I am right in saying that angels need deep tanks, also I know of someone who has had a lone angel for many many years!
One last thing, I think that an airstone depletes the CO2 levels so without co2 injection your plants may suffer. There again I may be talking out of my hat but I'll be put right I'm sure if that's the case

pmsl

although on a serious note i would hope you and other newbies would not be afrid to disagree with me or any of the other experienced members, we're all only human, i've made plenty of fishkeeping mistakes before and it's entirley possible that I'm wrong. So don't take it as red that I am right, or think that I would react badly to contradiciton. I always do my best to back up my comments with science or logical reasoning.

angels do need tanks at least 18" deep when they get to adult size.

The relationship between CO2 and O2 is much disputed really, some say one drives the other out of the water some say otherwise. IMHO I think moderate levels of either of them will still give plenty enough Co2 for the plants and o2 for the fish. do a search in the planted forum for more detailed info as they'll know much more than me about it

Are you sure red poo is bad, they have both had it since day one, and i'm sure the others in the fish shop had it as well?

what colour food are they eating? might sound silly but after tetra prima, bloodworms or red pellets our angels have had red poo before, while it can be a sign of disease you don't always need to think the worst!

 

[WILDER]

http/www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls...poo&spell=1
Did a search and the thread came up.

 

[paulkat]

thanks so much for your detailed reply.

the tank still has plenty of room for further stocking and my plan is to add gradually so as not to cause a mini cycle....

How long would you leave a tank after a death before considering any additions, just in case it was a disease, how long should it take for the disease to clear from the water or show up in other fish?

And would you recommend increased water changes at this stage?

if it was a disease it would really depend on the specific disease in question how long it would take to show up if it has been passed on. Just as in humans different diseases and virus's have different incubation periods they do for fish. I would say after a month or so if your disease free then you should be OK to add some more fish.

Yes I would do increased water changes, as you can see this tank is potentially dangerous for your remaining angel, keeping the water super clean will increase it's chances of survival. As time goes on the tank will stabilise more and more and at roughly 6 months it would be considered mature. I'd say for the next month or so do small water changes twice a week if you can, then revert to weekly monitor the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate levels and the fish's behavious closely in the changeover period.

Ok, so what I said in my earlier post was for the benifit of our resident experts. In my limited experience I agree with Miss Wiggle (dare I not ) in as much that a freshly cycled and planted tank is not considered matured) Also i think I am right in saying that angels need deep tanks, also I know of someone who has had a lone angel for many many years!
One last thing, I think that an airstone depletes the CO2 levels so without co2 injection your plants may suffer. There again I may be talking out of my hat but I'll be put right I'm sure if that's the case

pmsl

although on a serious note i would hope you and other newbies would not be afrid to disagree with me or any of the other experienced members, we're all only human, i've made plenty of fishkeeping mistakes before and it's entirley possible that I'm wrong. So don't take it as red that I am right, or think that I would react badly to contradiciton. I always do my best to back up my comments with science or logical reasoning.

angels do need tanks at least 18" deep when they get to adult size.

The relationship between CO2 and O2 is much disputed really, some say one drives the other out of the water some say otherwise. IMHO I think moderate levels of either of them will still give plenty enough Co2 for the plants and o2 for the fish. do a search in the planted forum for more detailed info as they'll know much more than me about it

Are you sure red poo is bad, they have both had it since day one, and i'm sure the others in the fish shop had it as well?

what colour food are they eating? might sound silly but after tetra prima, bloodworms or red pellets our angels have had red poo before, while it can be a sign of disease you don't always need to think the worst!

thanks for all the info wiggle, v v helpful. Food is red so i think it's that.

http/www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls...poo&spell=1
Did a search and the thread came up.

thanks wilder, searched google and didn't find that one.