Andy's First Attempt At A Planted Setup

[Underwurlde]

OK, make sense of this:

For plants to grow
1) You don't need CO2.
2) You don't need to dose ferts.

High lighting, demands 'high' CO2 and in turn this demands ferts. Inhibit any of those and you get algae aka an 'imbalance'. Give your plants that lot and yes they will grow, but boy do they grow. This as we all know is the famous EI.

Now one could say that all nutrients (bar CO2) are available in fish food. Fish eat & therefore crap, and the crap is GOOD for plants....
provide a good nutrient backup via a good substrate and you've thus provided all that is necessary for plants to grow. This is called an 'El Natural' tank set up: Loads of plants, loads of fish and strangely enough, no substrate vac'ing (and some would say, no filter) and no water changes (just top up).

If you want better growth, then by all means, dose with excel for CO2 and add a minimal amount of ferts. This would be an EI / 'el natural' hybrid tank.
(see: http/www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html ).

For these setups you don't want any more lighting that you already have.

Andy

 

[scouse_andy]

I've read about this, it's basically the Mary Walstad approach right?

Sounds good to me. So you just increase stocking to 1 inch per gallon or maybe slightly higher in time and do no water changes other than top up evaporation.

I currently have a substrate of just silica sand. Would it be wise to freeze some laterite and add it under my sand?

I'd just be worried that my fish my die from high nitrates due to no water changes but I guess these are used by the plants.

 

[Underwurlde]

LOL: !!! DIANA !!!

I would say you are correct in assuming your substrate is not good enough. Also I do not think laterite alone will be good enough either, it is mainly iron rich.

Soil. Get soil in there. But how? What are you willing to do? Would you be willing to uproot all your plants, remove your stocking, remove & replace the substrate, replant and then replace your fish?

You're kind of stuck I know. A bit like I was. I replaced my substrate as above. Fish were OK with that as were the plants. Perhaps others can come in & suggest alternative ways & means.

GL,

Andy

 

[scouse_andy]

Yeah Diana / Mary not far off!

As a last resort I would be prepared to do that, it would not put me out that much, I could get things in and out in a few hours and have a whole week off work coming up in which to get the setup just right (the joys of being a teacher!)

I just need to be sure that what I do this time is the right long-term method for the tank. If this is what is best then a few hours of upheaval is no problem at all.

I have fiddled about a lot with my tank, despite only having had it about 2 months. There is so much to know and everytime I think I know where I'm going, I find a better alternative.

The Walstad method does sound very attractive and cheap! In terms of stocking, the heavy biomass of plants gets rid of ammonia, nitrite and nitrates right? My nitrates have been practically zero since I replanted heavily last week. Does this mean you can surpass the one inch per gallon rule a bit, a lot or not at all.

I'm going to plough through the Barr Report link you sent me and see what else I can find out.

Anybody have much experience of this?

 

[SuperColey1]

Sorry to hear about your problems with the bubble counter and the NRV. I must admit that at first I found it a struggle to get mine over, but then I do have a very steady hand and was very careful with the glass (My tubing is proper CO2 tubing which is much harder and less manoeverable than the silicon airline hoses that tenf to come with the Nutrafins)

Oh well. Lunapet on ebay (German Company) sell full units for about £80 but I struggled to find anyone in my area that would refill extinguishers let alone the smallish cylinders that come with a pressurised set.

I ended up buying a regulator for disposable cannisters and 2 disposable cannisters from WeldUK website and then a solenoid valve, a needle valve and some CO2 hose from Lunapet.

All in all this lot cost total £80ish. No refilling just ordering cannisters online and delivered to my door.

You will still have the bubble counter problems though maybe buy a cheaper plastic version or make your own. NRVs are cheap as well (I just like glass. lol)

Andy

 

[scouse_andy]

I have spent the last few hours reading up about the El natural method of Diana Walstad. It seems quite clever really, also very cheap and unlikely to cause major algae problems. I've read through what Tom Barr has to say on the subject too.

I'd be very interested to hear from anybody who has first hand experience.

What I propose to do is get some top soil and mix with the silica sand in my tank already to make a depth of 5cm then cover with a couple of cms of top substrate. For this I will probably use the rest of the silica sand I already have (altough I may get a bag of Eco Complete so that it matches the colour of the soil- a bit pricey though)

I will then replant all my stems, I should also be able to grow my crypts and swords without the need for root tabs too.

I will then fill back up (as much old water as possible plus dechlorinted water too) and add my stock and filter media to the corner column. I plan then to just feed the fish as normal, leave everything in situe. I'll check to make sure the tank is still fully cycled and see what happens. Any algae will be removed by hand and I'll not need the gravel vac or any water changes.

I see that it is best not to go as far as the one inch per gallon rule with this style of tank. I will keep to small shoaling fish.

As time goes on, I may look at dosing small amounts of flourish excel and the three ferts that Tom Barr mentions if I'm not happy with my plant growth.

This should enable me to have the stable, slow growing, relatively algae-free aquarium that I'm after with the added bonus of needing only very occasional water changes and few if any water tests.

It all sounds so simple doesn't it!!!

Let me know what you all think. I'm off work all this week so will be looking to get things redone in the next seven days.

On a different note, despite all my fast growers, I have a lot of black looking (very dark green when removed) algae in my tank now. It is mainly on my myacca fluviatalis. Am I right in thinking that algae attaches itself to plants which are not growing, most of the other plants are pretty algae free. Is this a demanding plant? Perhaps I will chuck it when I rescape this week, I'm guessing it needs more light than 1.25 WPG or is it a root feeder.

Cheers, Andy.

 

[Underwurlde]

You seem to have grasped these concepts very well. I'll add a couple of things just in case:

1As you may have spotted, the substrate is very important and I'm glad you plan to 'do it right' by this. For my substrate I used KelKay Horticultural Grit Sand, washed (for some reason this stuff looks great as the grain size varies from 'sand' to about 3-4mm and therefore looks like the bottom of a river bed), Westland John Innes No.2 Potting On Compost - pre-boiled and some soil from my garden - pre with the compost in a 1:1 ratio by volume (I live in a hardwater area, so great soil for these kind of set-ups). The sand & compost I purchased from my local garden centre. I mixed this lot 2:2:1 soil, compost, sand, by volume. EXPECT A 6 to 8 week ammonia spike! Therefore monitor & do water changes during this period.

I have also put down a 1/2" first layer of Leonardite - Why? God knows, just wanted to try it, but took me ages to get hold of!

I honestly don't think you need the EcoComplete.

The Walstad method does sound very attractive and cheap! In terms of stocking, the heavy biomass of plants gets rid of ammonia, nitrite and nitrates right?

Yes.

I see that it is best not to go as far as the one inch per gallon rule with this style of tank. I will keep to small shoaling fish.

A lot of information to unravel in these threads! I'd say I am above this slightly with no worries, but then again I also run a filter, so figure this in as well. Some people go up to 2"/US Gal, but they only do this once the tank as matured for about 6 months.

This is all very much play it by ear / experience / let the fauna / flora do the talking type stuff.

It all sounds so simple doesn't it!!!

I think so.

Andy

 

[scouse_andy]

Thanks for your help.

I'm just looking up the grit sand and compost you recommend.

The ammonia spike worries me a lot as I have 18 fish in there at the moment. I do have a fully cycled Juwel sponge filter system so if I keep this aerated and in cycled water as I do my fiddling in the tank then add about 50% of the old tank water back in do you think I might avois the spike? I guess it is caused by some of the nutrients in the soil/compost. Does boiling not eliminate these?

Anyone else got any advice please? It is a steep learning curve but the more I think about this the more I'm sure this is the right long term direction for the tank.

 

[Underwurlde]

This ammonia spike is not caused by the filters crashing (and hence you read threads where fish have died due to an 'Ammonia Spike') caused by someone not using dechlorinated water or replacing the filters because the LFS adviced them to do so. Replacing the substrate will not cause a filter crash so don't worry about it - indeed keep the filter sponges immersed in old tank water, rinsing them out now & again. *

This ammonia spike (<- notice the lack of capitals) is caused by the soaking of the soil which will therefore leech ammonium (and hence ammonia), Nitrites and Nitrates. This usually takes 6-8 weeks. During this period, monitor the water and do water changes to keep the levels under control. This is not a big problem, just make a note that it will happen and to keep an eye on things for the first couple of months.

Boiling - This will speed the leeching process up and damp the initial spike, but as I have seen (via experimentation by examining two soil samples, one soaked and the other boiled then soaked), ammionia will still continue to leech out, albeit not as much. You don't have to boil the soil / compost mix and to be honest I do not know the disadvantages of this. Boiling (to me) also makes the idea of using soil in a tank more acceptable because it is now strilized to some extent, but like I said, I do not know if anything useful (esp bacteria) is removed in doing this. Therefore I'd say, if you have the time: Soak it for 2 months prior to use, if you don't have the time / unsure: Boil it first, if you are brave and clued up: Do neither, just bung it in (many people do).

* Mulm. The best thing for a new substrate. When doing your change over, as mentioned, keep some old tank water. Take the water out using a gravel vac: deep gravel vac & remove 50% of the water and then keep the filter sponges in this water and rinse them out. Now I mention this again, because if you let this water stand, Mulm will accumulate in the bottom of the bucket. This 'Mulm' is exactly what your new substrate needs: Get this mulm and mix it in with the soil/compost/soil layer when you put it down.

Andy

 

[scouse_andy]

After some major reading up on here, Tom Barr's very good website and various other places, I am planning a major overhaul of my tank in about a month's time.

I will be stripping the tank right down and restarting my substrate with 2-3 inches of a mix of top soil (soaked for 3 weeks) and silica sand, which is already in my tank (two parts sand to one part soil). I will then add some bleach free kitchen towel to keep things separate, this will obviously biodegrade in time. On top of this I will add an inch of silica sand to avoid the soil getting into the water. I will also add as much mulm from my existing set-up as I can extract. I have read a post from Underwurlde suggesting tape around the glass at the bottom to lower chances of algae kicking off so will give this a try. I reckon I have about 2 inches of silica sand in my current set-up to use, I may well need a little more to add in with the soil layer. Would play sand be OK (nice and cheap) or is it too fine? I have it in my 20 gallon and it is very very fine, am I better with a coarser sand (i.e. more of my silica sand)?

In the interim period, to keep my tank ticking over, I'm planning on adding a few ice cubes of boiled soil and sand at the front of my tank to help with my root feeders (crypts/swords). This, in addition to the 2 pro aqua fertiliser bags I have in my filter column, should keep algae at bay and allow slow growth.

I have a heavy plant biomass already, which seems to be taking care of all the nitrates so I shouldn't need to do water changes. I'll just watch out for the small ammonia spike expected after adding even a bit of boiled soil. Do people think that this whole approach will work for the next month? I suppose I'm actually doing the low tech natural planted tank approach already as it is but just supplying nutrients through the water rather than the substrate.

I have also been looking at Tom Barr's page carefully and he suggests adding small doses weekly of KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate), KH2PO4 (Monopotassium Phosphate) and Seachem Equilibrium, which has a number of other nutrients in it. I was thinking of about 1/4 teaspoon KNO3, 1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4 and about 1/4 teaspoon Equilibrium. These apparently supplement the nutrients the plants receive in the fish waste so I think the higher stock of fish you have the less you should dose as there is more natural nutrients for the plants. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that because it was quite a technical thread I read. All of these nutrients can be got from Aquaessentials and should last ages at the small doses I am planning. I would probably not dose the Flourish Excel as this would only speed up growth more and lead to more regular pruning and more water changes.

I also plan to add some Japonica/Amano shrimp - same thing I believe. How much should I be looking to pay for these and what would you recommend for a 240 litre tank? Ten ish?

Anyway that's the plan for now. I am going to buy Diana Walstad's Ecology of the Planted Aquarium from Amazon now to give me some more ideas.

This week I will boil up some soil and add it to the front in the form of frozen mud cubes then get on with soaking my topsoil for the makeover.

 

[JamieH]

I have spent the last few hours reading up about the El natural method of Diana Walstad. It seems quite clever really, also very cheap and unlikely to cause major algae problems. I've read through what Tom Barr has to say on the subject too.

I'd be very interested to hear from anybody who has first hand experience.

What I propose to do is get some top soil and mix with the silica sand in my tank already to make a depth of 5cm then cover with a couple of cms of top substrate. For this I will probably use the rest of the silica sand I already have (altough I may get a bag of Eco Complete so that it matches the colour of the soil- a bit pricey though)

I will then replant all my stems, I should also be able to grow my crypts and swords without the need for root tabs too.

I will then fill back up (as much old water as possible plus dechlorinted water too) and add my stock and filter media to the corner column. I plan then to just feed the fish as normal, leave everything in situe. I'll check to make sure the tank is still fully cycled and see what happens. Any algae will be removed by hand and I'll not need the gravel vac or any water changes.

I see that it is best not to go as far as the one inch per gallon rule with this style of tank. I will keep to small shoaling fish.

As time goes on, I may look at dosing small amounts of flourish excel and the three ferts that Tom Barr mentions if I'm not happy with my plant growth.

This should enable me to have the stable, slow growing, relatively algae-free aquarium that I'm after with the added bonus of needing only very occasional water changes and few if any water tests.

It all sounds so simple doesn't it!!!

Let me know what you all think. I'm off work all this week so will be looking to get things redone in the next seven days.

On a different note, despite all my fast growers, I have a lot of black looking (very dark green when removed) algae in my tank now. It is mainly on my myacca fluviatalis. Am I right in thinking that algae attaches itself to plants which are not growing, most of the other plants are pretty algae free. Is this a demanding plant? Perhaps I will chuck it when I rescape this week, I'm guessing it needs more light than 1.25 WPG or is it a root feeder.

Cheers, Andy.

Re the Substrate...

I've read on 'the Krib' of a couple of cheap and easy ways to improve the substrate nutrients.


Option 1: Use Pond Plant fertiliser tablets - break them up and add them all over the substrate

Option 2: get some clay - make little 'balls' of it and let them dry... then push them right in substrate to the bottom and leave.

I'm trying to find the link but the giy who did this - well - his tanks looked AMAZING.

 

[Underwurlde]

Would play sand be OK (nice and cheap) or is it too fine? I have it in my 20 gallon and it is very very fine, am I better with a coarser sand (i.e. more of my silica sand)?

Nah, too fine I reckon. You're after a varied grain size from 'beach sand' to 3mm dia max. NOT coarse, rounded.

In the interim period, to keep my tank ticking over, I'm planning on adding a few ice cubes of boiled soil and sand at the front of my tank to help with my root feeders (crypts/swords). This, in addition to the 2 pro aqua fertiliser bags I have in my filter column, should keep algae at bay and allow slow growth.

Another idea is to press boiled soil into those ice cube things & then turn them out onto a tray and then bake them. Whoo-hoo InstaRootTabs (tm).

I have a heavy plant biomass already, which seems to be taking care of all the nitrates so I shouldn't need to do water changes. I'll just watch out for the small ammonia spike expected after adding even a bit of boiled soil. Do people think that this whole approach will work for the next month?

Don't see why not. You would not believe the lack of maintenace I do to my tank & yet I have a 'difficult' Red Rubin in my tank that has some leaves that are just the most perfect shade of red....

I suppose I'm actually doing the low tech natural planted tank approach already as it is but just supplying nutrients through the water rather than the substrate.

A pureist would correct you there and say that is not completely 'El Natural'!

and about 1/4 teaspoon Equilibrium

If you live in a hard water area, I wouldn't bother with equilibrium - you'll get that for 'free' from the tap.

These apparently supplement the nutrients the plants receive in the fish waste so I think the higher stock of fish you have the less you should dose as there is more natural nutrients for the plants. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that because it was quite a technical thread I read. All of these nutrients can be got from Aquaessentials and should last ages at the small doses I am planning. I would probably not dose the Flourish Excel as this would only speed up growth more and lead to more regular pruning and more water changes.

I did not read it in this manner. In my mind: Simply put, it is not advisable to over stock this kind of tank. In a nutshell, Tom Barrs 'EI Natural Hybrid' (as I'd call it ) is a hybrid methodof 'El Natural' to simply to speed up plant growth (Tom's methods are a bit like body building for plants!) by adding Carbon (CO2) in the form of Excel -> The plants would then demand slightly more nutrients (by a factor of about 2 to 3 when compared to a basic 'El Natural' tank). Note: if you injected CO2 as gas to maintain 30ppm, growth would increase by a factor of about 10, hence the massive EI dosing (coupled with extra lighting of course).

I also plan to add some Japonica/Amano shrimp - same thing I believe. How much should I be looking to pay for these and what would you recommend for a 240 litre tank? Ten ish?

I think I payed £4.50 so not cheap, not expensive. There was a shrimp bio-load thread recently. I stated that inch for inch they place about a quarter of the bioload on the system (hence 4 times more) - but I think a more clued up chappie came in on this and put me right (I think, crap memory). 10 would be fine, 15 even better! Get a discount for bulk?!?!?

Keep us posted on your progress? Journal Time?

Andy

 

[scouse_andy]

After some more reading up on the whole substrate thing, I am now thinking of going for a couple of large tubs of Tetraplant complete to a depth of a couple of cms and then topped off with the silica sand I already have. It's not overly pricey and does get good comments on here. I just have a feeling that, given my track record, the soil would turn into a disaster - anything I can mess up I will mess up! Would this substrate be a good choice for the El natural method?

A few questions for you Andy (Underwurlde) [all these Andy's gets confusing!]

Don't see why not. You would not believe the lack of maintenace I do to my tank & yet I have a 'difficult' Red Rubin in my tank that has some leaves that are just the most perfect shade of red.....

Sounds very encouraging - what WPG are you running and do you dose any of the nutrients that Tom Barr mentions in that article?

If you live in a hard water area, I wouldn't bother with equilibrium - you'll get that for 'free' from the tap.

Yes I do live in a hard-water area. I'm all up for saving money Even with very lengthy periods between water changes will the hard water supply what is needed?

I did not read it in this manner. In my mind: Simply put, it is not advisable to over stock this kind of tank. In a nutshell, Tom Barrs 'EI Natural Hybrid' (as I'd call it ) is a hybrid methodof 'El Natural' to simply to speed up plant growth (Tom's methods are a bit like body building for plants!) by adding Carbon (CO2) in the form of Excel -> The plants would then demand slightly more nutrients (by a factor of about 2 to 3 when compared to a basic 'El Natural' tank). Note: if you injected CO2 as gas to maintain 30ppm, growth would increase by a factor of about 10, hence the massive EI dosing (coupled with extra lighting of course).

so with no CO2 and 1.25 WPG I wouldn't need to dose at all?

I am going to hold fire on any new stocking (Otos and shrimp) for the time being A) until I've redone the substrate and know the tank is nice and healthy and B) to see if the algae will clear up of it's own accord under the new conditions. I can remove by hand for now and it appears that the fewer water changes are done the easier algae is to control using this method.

Diana Walstad's book is on the way from Amazon so I will bury my head in that when it arrives.

I feel more indecisive than the average woman at the moment but there is just so much to get your head around!

Any advice / criticism as always very welcome. Andy.

 

[Underwurlde]

It's not overly pricey and does get good comments on here. I just have a feeling that, given my track record, the soil would turn into a disaster - anything I can mess up I will mess up

Soil does sound risky, doesn't it? Either buy something someone has professionally prepared, in a bag with the words 'For Aquarium Use' splashed across the front, or.... Dig some random bit of mud up from your back garden, slugs n'all! But, you've got to have a bit of nounce about you and not just dig up any random old soil. It took me quite a few hours of reading & internet searching to establish exactly what was meant by 'soil' aka 'top soil' or as the yanks would call it 'potting soil'. Again a big magnet was drawing me to the shops to buy some profesionally prepared soil with 'to buy must make it good' in mind, but honestly, after researching this again, the 'guys out there' were saying that no, soil from the garden, warts n'all, is what the plants want: Any human 'enhancement' would contain unknown and definately unwanted additives, so best just avoided.

But, the way I look at it is this: The professional, bagged stuff is a copy or an attempted enhancement of what plants have spent millions of years to evolve to use. Once you get your head around the complexities of using soil, it just seems, well, right. Know what I mean? If the professional substrates are an enhancement, then enhanced growth can be expected and therefore extra lighting and CO2 etc. to take full advantage of this, otherwise I feel it a bit of a waste of money. It's horses for courses really.

Sounds very encouraging - what WPG are you running and do you dose any of the nutrients that Tom Barr mentions in that article?

I couldn't quite get my head around the basic 'El Natural' philosophy, part of which is a once every 6 month H20 change! So I dose excel, weekly minimum ferts and run a lighing shedule. 1W/Gal for 2 hours with a bright spot of 2W/Gal for 4 hours then back to 1W/Gal for 2 hours. This therefore allows me a monthly water change (50%).

Yes I do live in a hard-water area. I'm all up for saving money Even with very lengthy periods between water changes will the hard water supply what is needed?

Good question. Would it last this long? Don't really know, but my ass is covered as I h20 change monthly. Perhaps if water changing every 6 months then I would be tempted to top up with equilibrium every month or so.

so with no CO2 and 1.25 WPG I wouldn't need to dose at all?

I'd say no. You'll have slow growth, but so what! Personally I want that. Who says that's a bad thing? Just takes longer to figure out any deficiencies.

I feel more indecisive than the average woman at the moment but there is just so much to get your head around!

You can say that again! Diana's book is up there in the complexity of things but even from a layman's point of view (a la moi) you can still get your head around the basic theories of what she is trying to say.

I'd say for now, dig up some soil and soak it. What have you got to loose. Read Diana's book and get a clearer view. Best £30 I've spent for ages. Then if you're still unconvinced by soil, by some pro stuff. If not, then no time wasted in soaking!

regards,

Andy

 

[JamieH]

It's not overly pricey and does get good comments on here. I just have a feeling that, given my track record, the soil would turn into a disaster - anything I can mess up I will mess up

Soil does sound risky, doesn't it? Either buy something someone has professionally prepared, in a bag with the words 'For Aquarium Use' splashed across the front, or.... Dig some random bit of mud up from your back garden, slugs n'all! But, you've got to have a bit of nounce about you and not just dig up any random old soil. It took me quite a few hours of reading & internet searching to establish exactly what was meant by 'soil' aka 'top soil' or as the yanks would call it 'potting soil'. Again a big magnet was drawing me to the shops to buy some profesionally prepared soil with 'to buy must make it good' in mind, but honestly, after researching this again, the 'guys out there' were saying that no, soil from the garden, warts n'all, is what the plants want: Any human 'enhancement' would contain unknown and definately unwanted additives, so best just avoided.

But, the way I look at it is this: The professional, bagged stuff is a copy or an attempted enhancement of what plants have spent millions of years to evolve to use. Once you get your head around the complexities of using soil, it just seems, well, right. Know what I mean? If the professional substrates are an enhancement, then enhanced growth can be expected and therefore extra lighting and CO2 etc. to take full advantage of this, otherwise I feel it a bit of a waste of money. It's horses for courses really.

Sounds very encouraging - what WPG are you running and do you dose any of the nutrients that Tom Barr mentions in that article?

I couldn't quite get my head around the basic 'El Natural' philosophy, part of which is a once every 6 month H20 change! So I dose excel, weekly minimum ferts and run a lighing shedule. 1W/Gal for 2 hours with a bright spot of 2W/Gal for 4 hours then back to 1W/Gal for 2 hours. This therefore allows me a monthly water change (50%).

Yes I do live in a hard-water area. I'm all up for saving money Even with very lengthy periods between water changes will the hard water supply what is needed?

Good question. Would it last this long? Don't really know, but my ass is covered as I h20 change monthly. Perhaps if water changing every 6 months then I would be tempted to top up with equilibrium every month or so.

so with no CO2 and 1.25 WPG I wouldn't need to dose at all?

I'd say no. You'll have slow growth, but so what! Personally I want that. Who says that's a bad thing? Just takes longer to figure out any deficiencies.

I feel more indecisive than the average woman at the moment but there is just so much to get your head around!

You can say that again! Diana's book is up there in the complexity of things but even from a layman's point of view (a la moi) you can still get your head around the basic theories of what she is trying to say.

I'd say for now, dig up some soil and soak it. What have you got to loose. Read Diana's book and get a clearer view. Best £30 I've spent for ages. Then if you're still unconvinced by soil, by some pro stuff. If not, then no time wasted in soaking!

regards,

Andy

kudos for the EPIC post.

My tank is doing so well now.... with so little maintenance... that i firmly believe dianas methods work. Even though i'm using a 'professional' product mix as my base layer.

If i were setting up my tank again today, i'd almost certainly use soil as a base.