Ammonia Readings Conjoined With Ph, A Problem?

[paradiddle]

I have a freshwater cichlid tank and my ammonia is always 0-0.1, nitrite 0

The guy in my lfs said that when the ph becomes 8 or more I should use a salt water kit to test my water as the fresh water ammonia test is inaccurate at higher ph like mine for my cichlids

What's your view on this?
Do I need a salt water test kit to test my ammonia etc?

 

[Meeresstille]

I've never heard of using saltwater test kits on freshwater tanks before, but to be honest I don't really know anything about cichlid tanks, or tanks with high pH.
 
A few questions that may help other members help you. How high is your pH? And how come do you have ammonia in your tank? Is your tank cycled? Is there ammonia in your tap water? Could the ammonia be a false reading? Are you using the API test kit?

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

That's a new one on me, but would not suggest the guy is wrong. Obviously the saltwater test kits will all be formulated to get optimum results from water with a pH around the 8.4 mark. So it could well be informed advise.

 

[daizeUK]

I've never heard of this either but would be very interested to know if it is true or not.
It might be worth contacting API directly, they have always been very helpful when asking technical questions about their product before.  I can pm you an email address for them if you're interested.

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

I've never heard of this either but would be very interested to know if it is true or not.
It might be worth contacting API directly, they have always been very helpful when asking technical questions about their product before.  I can pm you an email address for them if you're interested.

The mains water is under high pressure, so the dissolved gases are compressed. Once it is out of the tap the gases start to be released. This is the reason why it is always better to use "aged" water. Some fish can be quiet sensitive to changes in pH, others not so. 

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

 

I've never heard of this either but would be very interested to know if it is true or not.
It might be worth contacting API directly, they have always been very helpful when asking technical questions about their product before.  I can pm you an email address for them if you're interested.

The mains water is under high pressure, so the dissolved gases are compressed. Once it is out of the tap the gases start to be released. This is the reason why it is always better to use "aged" water. Some fish can be quiet sensitive to changes in pH, others not so. 
 

Sorry that was a miss placed answer, I was answering a similar question on another page, and got the 2 muddled!!! 

 

[Lunar Jetman]

Sounds to me like your LFS want to make a few more quid out of you by selling you another test kit....

 

[the_lock_man]

Interesting. I don't know why, but I would think there is some basis in truth. My first test kit was the Hagen Nutrafin one, which had two different colour charts, one for freshwater and one for marine, but why the difference, I don't know.
 
I currently use the Salifert kit, which is predominantly for saltwater, but can be used for fresh.

 

[Lunar Jetman]

Thinking about it, some test kits just have the standard ph tester which is about 6-7.6 so maybe since Marine tanks have a higher ph (and the test kits therefore have a higher range) your LFS are suggesting you buy one of the sets with the higher range ph test kit in it because they don't have individual high range test kits.
 
This one goes up to 8.8
 
http/www.amazon.co.uk/API-High-Range-Test-Kit/dp/B003SN6Z78/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1380707893&sr=8-3&keywords=high+range+ph+test+kit

 

[fm1978]

I have a freshwater cichlid tank and my ammonia is always 0-0.1, nitrite 0

The guy in my lfs said that when the ph becomes 8 or more I should use a salt water kit to test my water as the fresh water ammonia test is inaccurate at higher ph like mine for my cichlids

What's your view on this?
Do I need a salt water test kit to test my ammonia etc?

In short, I wouldn't think so.
 
It's true that pH and NH3/NH4 have a relationship, but I don't think salinity and pH have a direct relationship, per se. There may be some interactions at the extremes of pH levels but that shouldn't even begin to be the case at your pH of around 8. Salinity is a measure of the total dissolved substances whereas pH is simply a measure of how acidic or alkaline it is. 
 
I also have the Salifert Ammonia test kit (likely the same one as TLM) and it clearly states on the instructions that it can be used for both freshies and salties!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The API ammonia kit uses the same reagents for both fresh and salt water. However, there are two different color cards, one for fresh an done for salt. It is interesting to note they do not state which to use in a brackish tank. If you look at both cards they are pretty close in colors but not identical. So it would seem as if the reagents involved are not the issue rather the salt concentration is. Since salycilate test kit results can be affected by turbidity and other things, it may be that the salt level affects the wavelengths of the colors involved and this necessitates two different cards.
 
Also, if one keeps rift lake cichlids is is often necessary to use a cichlid friendly substrate or to add "cichlid salts" to a tank to get the parameters in the correct range for the fish. Here is an example for the SeaChem product:
 

 
Cichlid Lake Salt™ is a chemically sound blend of salts designed to replicate the natural environment of Cichlids. It contains all physiologically essential elements such as magnesium, calcium, sodium, potassium, and includes trace components such as iron, aluminum, and iodide. It does not contain harmful or unnecessary ingredients such as nitrates, phosphates, arsenic, lithium, or cadmium. Use Seachem’s Cichlid Trace™ to restore and maintain important trace elements between water changes.

from http/www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/CichlidLakeSalt.html
 
The trace mix contains:

 
Amounts per 1 gram.
Ingredients: calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, potassium iodide, copper sulfate, iron sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, sodium fluoride, selenium AAC

from http/www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/CichlidTrace.html
 
However, I do not believe any of the above would have a serious enough effect on water to create a salt concentration high enough to necessitate one's using the sw ammonia card. It would not even be close to brackish levels let alone full salt water. However, it might explain the clerk's saying what he/she did?
 
But probably the best reason to think the information you were given is inaccurate is that it would be prominently stated on many cichlid, and other, sites if it was a common problem with rift lake tanks and they would surely state that using the salt water card was the solution.

 

[paradiddle]

Sorted, thought id go straight to source and ask API themselves, quoting all my tanks levels, stocking etc etc etc
They emailed me back pretty swiftly!
 

 
Thank you very much for contacting us regarding our products. All of your comments and questions are valuable. We use your feedback to create the most effective line of aquarium and pond products available.

Adam as long as you have a freshwater tank, even if you added cichlid salts as directed you will want to use the freshwater test kit to test the water. You will only use the saltwater version if you have a marine or saltwater aquarium. The pH of the water will not affect the reading as long as the tank is freshwater.

If you have any other questions or wish to discuss this further, please email back or give us a call at 1-800-847-0659. 
Best Regards, 
Nathan Fekula 
Technical Service and Research 
Mars Fishcare 

 

[fm1978]

Good response, isn't it...I'm impressed with their customer service even if I'm not at all impressed with their Master Test Kit!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Gee am I as smart as API- hmmm.
 
It amazes me how much of a lack of real knowledge about these things persists in the hobby and especially in the retail side of things. I would bet dollars to donuts that the person in the store that made that statement would not be able to give you an answer to any of the following:
 
- What is the salinity of sw?
- What is the salinity of brackish water?
- What is the salinity of any of the rift lakes?
- How does a salycilate ammonia kit work?
- Why are there two different cards for the API ammonia test kit?

 

[fm1978]

Gee am I as smart as API- hmmm.

 
It amazes me how much of a lack of real knowledge about these things persists in the hobby and especially in the retail side of things. I would bet dollars to donuts that the person in the store that made that statement would not be able to give you an answer to any of the following:
 
- What is the salinity of sw?
- What is the salinity of brackish water?
- What is the salinity of any of the rift lakes?
- How does a salycilate ammonia kit work?
- Why are there two different cards for the API ammonia test kit?

I'd put money on the fact that you are!
 
To be clear, I was impressed by the speedy reply from API, not necessarily the content of the answer...but what else can you go on?