Ammonia And Bacteria Starter Sources

[KirkyArcher]

Where is such information available on the types of nitrite oxidizing bacteria contained within products TwoTankAmin?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

KA you really have to dig to find this sort of info. But in the case of this product, which has been around for a long time, it was made easier by somebody else's research.
 
If you read the paper:
 
Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria
TIMOTHY A. HOVANEC,1,2* LANCE T. TAYLOR,1† ANDREW BLAKIS,1 AND EDWARD F. DELONG1†
Department of Ecology, Evolution and Marine Biology, University of California, Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara, California 93106,1 and Aquaria Inc., Moorpark, California 930212 Received 4 September 1997/Accepted 27 October 1997
 
You will see that as part of the research they used Cycle in several of the experimental tanks. They tested what was in the bottle in terms of nitrite oxidizers- it was Nitrobacter wynogradskyi. However, once the tanks where the product was used were cycled, there were no Nitrobacter detected only Nitrospira.
 
You can read the whole thing here if you like. In addition, this information was included with the patent filings for Bio-Spira, Dr Tim's One and Only and I can't  this say for Tetra Safe Start but they should share the patent rights for it with Dr. Hovanec at al. http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/wp-content/files/scientificpapers/hovanecAEM_Jan98.pdf

 

[KirkyArcher]

Thanks, I did search the Hagen/ Nutrafin site, even looked at the safety sheets, I suppose that since 1997 they could possibly have changed the "recipe" as well

 

[daizeUK]

Most manufacturers are suspiciously secretive about the type of bacteria they have in their products which is why we don't trust them.  Dr Tim is about the only one who has really done extensive research and made it public which is why his One and Only product has such a strong scientific basis.  The rest is snake oil as far as I'm concerned unless they publish research to prove otherwise.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Most manufacturers are suspiciously secretive about the type of bacteria they have in their products which is why we don't trust them.  Dr Tim is about the only one who has really done extensive research and made it public which is why his One and Only product has such a strong scientific basis.  The rest is snake oil as far as I'm concerned unless they publish research to prove otherwise.

 
Could not have put it better myself 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Independent research is the most impartial source.

 

[daizeUK]

That is true.  If only there were some!
 
I have no reason to doubt it though.  I've used One & Only and seen it work first hand and seeing is believing.  I've heard many accounts that One & Only worked for others too.  I've also heard many accounts that <insert just about any other product here> did absolutely nothing.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

They could change their formulation, but not to the Nitrospira- those are patented. This is why they are in Dr Tim's and Tetra. The research was done at the Marineland facility at Moorpark, Ca. Dr. Hovanec was one of the lead researchers. The results were published in a well respected peer reviewed journal. When Marineland was acquired Dr. Hovanec went independent and took over the Moorpark facility. But Marineland shared in the patent. The conglomerate which purchased Marineland also owns Tetra and their research effort was moved to Germany (I believe) and/or to Virginia (I think). I am not 100% certain about the location specifics but the rest of it I am sure about.
 
For, this reason most of the other bacterial starters do not contain nitropspira. but in the case of Hagen and Cycle, it was formulated prior the the research identifying the Nitrospira. At that time it was thought that it was Nitrobacter winogradski, which is found in the higher nitrite level application associated with waste water treatment that was also at work in aquariums.

 

[the_lock_man]

 

  Edit (Just to add at no point did these fish exhibit any surface swimming or gasping associated with Ammonia poisoning) Edit

 
I thought gasping was a sign of nitrite poisoning? I only ask because I'm new to the hobby and now confused... 

 

 
Gasping is a symptom of both ammonia and nitrite poisoning, and of low oxygen concentration.
 
Ammonia causes the gills to haemorrage, and they consequently clump together. This reduces the surface area of the gills, meaning that fish receives insufficient oxygen. Nitrite, on the other hand, enters the fish's blood stream, and attaches itself to the haemoglobin, and thus prevents the oxygen from being transported away from the gills and
around the body. Again, the fish receives insufficient oxygen.

 

[KirkyArcher]

I also wondered last night does the bacteria "Nitrobacter wynogradskyi" in Nutrafin Cycle actually do what is says on the tin, does it make it safe or at least safer to introduce fish immediately for a fish-in-cycle? Though it may not instantly fully cycle a tank,  edit and end up with results as if following the fish-less cycle method edit , Like I said my tank showed all the traits of been cycled "Fish in style" in about three weeks, which is very fast, showing higher than tap water levels of nitrate and zero nitrite, Anyway that's my experience of the product, and all worked out well for my tank and it's contents "somehow"

 

[Fishmanic]

I used the nutrafin bacteria booster and my fishless cycle still took 5 weeks to complete so I don't think the nutrafin sped up the cycle much if at all.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina........
 
Results regarding the beneficial effects of the addition of a bacterial additive containing Nitrobacter species were equivocal. While nitrite levels in treated aquaria decreased earlier than those in nontreated aquaria, there was no evidence that Nitrobacter species were actively growing in these aquaria. It is possible that the levels of Nitrobacter species were below the limits of detection of our techniques. However, since Nitrospira-like bacteria were readily detected and that their establishment coincided with nitrite oxidation we postulate that Nitrospira-like organisms, and not Nitrobacter species, are the major nitrite oxidizers in the freshwater aquarium environment. It is possible that the addition of bacterial mixtures supplies vitamins and other nutrients which generally stimulate the growth of the nitrifying assemblages, fostering their growth and development and indirectly stimulating nitrite oxidation..........
 
We chose to use universal and domain primers rather than group-specific primers, since previous analysis suggested that nitrite oxidizers other than Nitrobacter might be involved in nitrification in aquaria (9). Combined monitoring of environmental conditions (water chemistry) with bacterial assemblage analysis (DGGE) allowed us to detect a correspondence between nitrite oxidation and Nitrospira-like rRNA. By monitoring samples over time, changes in the microbial assemblage were evident.

from http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/wp-content/files/scientificpapers/hovanecAEM_Jan98.pdf

 

[Ch4rlie]

Thought might be an idea to add one of the most commonly recommended test kits for beginners who want to start a Fishless Cycle.
 
A test kit is a must really if you want to keep a record of what water parameters are during the cycle so you know what is happening and how the cycle is progressing.
 
There are other test kits out there of course, but do try to avoid paper strip test kits as these can be very inaccurate.
 
This is an API Freshwater Master Test Kit, can be bought from many LFS for usually around the £35 area if there is no sale on.
Although usually much cheaper to purchase these online, eBay and Amazon do sell these for around £20.
 

               API FRESHWATER MASTER TEST KIT
 
Found on eBay -
 
http/www.ebay.co.uk/itm/API-Freshwater-Master-test-kit-/291025542764?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&hash=item43c2795e6c
 
Do bear in mind however, these are not the most accurate test kit available but for value for money and starting out in the fish keeping hobby these are adequate.
 
Note - Nitrate test, need to shake the 2nd bottle of reagent solution like there's no tomorrow!
And also this nitrate test can be inaccurate but since this not as important as Ammonia and Nitrite tests and nitrate being the lest toxic of the three main tests and doing weekly water changes will help to keep nitrate levels at controllable levels. (Live plants will help reduce nitrate levels too)

 

[Ch4rlie]

For Canadians
 

  Old Country Household Ammonia
Found this on his website -
 
http/www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Indoor-Living/Home-Commercial-Cleaning/Cleaners/Household/All-Purpose/900mL-Ammonia-All-Purpose-Cleaner/_/N-ntkh4/R-I4521716
 
This is in thanks to another member of this forum I_I_I, and quoted from one of his posts -
 
Update: I have finally found some Ammonia in a Montreal store. Nobody had any, I called so many places and most people thought I wanted to make bombs and stuff lol.
The store I bought it from was a Home Hardware on sherbrooke street near Vendome metro.
I purchased the Old Country household ammonia and it cost me a whooping 3$. (1L)
I'm putting this info out there because if someone googles, well, they'll have a really good cue 

I shake it, no bubbles, nothing on the label is saying something about additives, so my guess is it's ok.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Found a couple of possible ammonia sources for those in NZ or Australia
(With thanks to a member of this forum for these sources)
 

         Pure Clear Aquarium Cycling Ammonia
 
This is found on eBay website in Australia or NZ 
 
http/www.ebay.com.au/itm/30mL-Fishless-Cycling-Pure-Clear-Ammonia-use-to-cycle-an-aquarium-without-fish-/291036520630?pt=AU_Pet_Supplies&hash=item43c320e0b6&_uhb=1
 
 

         Ammonia for Fishless Cycling
 
This is also found on eBay website in Australia or NZ 
 
http/www.ebay.com.au/itm/pure-Ammonia-Fishless-cycling-aquarium-kit-70ml-instructions-FREE-dropper-/141136099295?pt=AU_Pet_Supplies&hash=item20dc5df7df&_uhb=1
 
NOTE - These links are from eBay auction sites so I cannot guarantee the links will continue to work, but am sure if typed in Aquarium Ammonia or similar on eBay web search you should find one or both these product for sale hopefully.