Amazon Puffers Erratic Swimming

[tropicthomas]

Hello,

I am new to this hobby and have recently been experiencing trouble keeping my three amazon puffers happy and healthy. Recently, my 30-gallon tank with three amazon puffers and 4 neon tetras has been infected with ich a month ago due to a new fish being introduced (without separating it in a quartine tank when it came home). I treated the entire tank, raised the temp, and all seemed well. No sign of any more ich however 2 of my neon tetras, unfortunately, passed away. After this, I noticed that the tank had hydra about 2 weeks ago. I started to see my puffers acting weird and I noticed white tentical-like things along the glass right away. So I treated that with this amazing product "no planaria hydra killer". All the hydra now seems to be gone on day 4 of using it, however, the fish still seem to be swimming erratically. Not like when they had ich, but rather smashing into things and swimming mainly against the glass. They also sometimes swim in circles around the heater and will dart around like they are really stressed. I don't see anything off about their skin or any blood from flakes. I'm not sure if they are still recovering from hydra or whether this is a whole new problem. I also introduced a dwarf gourami a week ago to help with the hydra. Although he has done nothing to help, he doesn't seem to be swimming erratically like the puffers. I have been testing the water daily and have had no problems with water parameters. temp is at 79 degrees. All hydra is currently gone from what I can tell, however, the puffers will not last very long I don't think as it has been 2 weeks of this. If anyone knows what the problems could be please let me know. I have attached videos and photos which are the best so trust me when I say they are swimming a lot worse than this.

 

[Byron]

Welcome to TFF. Though I wish it were under better circumstances.

My advice here would be to do a major water change, 75% of the tank volume. Clean the substrate well with this. I will assume the parameters--these refer to the GH, KH, pH and temperature of the water--are baically the same between tap and tank water. Removing a much of the chemicals can only help.

Other members may have more to offer, I am not a disease expert, but I will mention that adding anything that says it will kill something is never in the best interests of the fish, and it will stress the fish at the very least. What was the ich treatment, aside from heat, and what temp did you have the tank water and for how long?

Also, never acquire a fish to solve any problem. This frequently introduces other problems, as here...if the puffers were healthy, they would be likey to nip the fins of the gourami. You might want to consider returning the gourami if the store will accept it.

A lot of negatives I realize, but we do want to help you save the fish and these things are critical.

 

[tropicthomas]

Thank you so much for the response!

Yes, I have been doing weekly and sometimes bi-weekly water tanks on that tank (25%) to try and reduce the number of chemicals circulating as well as removing any extra food (because of the hydra). However, I will replace 75% of the water tmrw when I wake up and see if that makes a difference. I treated the ich for 10 days. On day 4 or 5 I saw no more of ich left. I gradually increased the temps (1 or 2 degrees per day) to around 83 degrees to speed up the life cycle. I used "Kordon ich attack" and other natural treatments (aquarium salt) as I have a planted aquarium ( as shown in the photos) and wanted to minimize destroying and or killing things. This didn't help much so I decided to also treat it with a few tabs of "tetra ich guard" which seemed to work, however, I don't know how safe it is overall. For all treatments, I followed the label with no variation other than the tetra tabs (I put in less in order to minimize potential damage to plants). As for the gourami, I have noticed no ammonia or any other spikes. I also didn't see how he would cause much more harm as the tank was and is still undergoing problems already and I thought he may be able to help without chemical treatment (in hindsight I was wrong as he is just a mopeing around ). He is doing well however I did notice he had a nip in his fin the day after I picked him up, probably from the puffers. I decided if this continues I will place him in my other tank which is just occupied by ramshorn snails at the moment. I got the neon tetras when I got the puffers as they are fast enough to evade the puffers and have seemed perfectly fine. These amazon puffers seem to be a bit preoccupied with the glass surfing and flashing and on top of that were actually never very aggressive or interested in the other fish currently in the tank. As I mentioned there are no white dots or any skin distress that I can see (which was very apparent with the ich). Was just wondering if there are common internal parasites with these guys and what other treatments or methods I could use to cure them.

 

[Byron]

I do not think there is much doubt that all the "treatments" have caused the problem. I will explain. Fish drink by taking in water by osmosis through every cell. Substances dissolved in the water that have the ability to diffuse across the cell membranes are thus able to enter the fish's bloodstream and get carried to internal organs. Regardless of the substance, this is always detrimental to the fish, and is best avoided. When a specific medicine/substance is considered necessary to better the fish's health there can be a reason for using it, but never otherwise. Substances intended to eradicate non-fish issues like hydra, snails, algae, or whatever should never be used in a fish tank without first removing the fish (if the "treatment" is actually needed in the first place). These substances can react in the fish's bloodstream. One of the external symptoms is just what is occurring here. Erratic swimming or the inability to swim "normally" for the species can be a sign of several things--this is why diagnosing the specific issue can be so difficult--but erratic swimming is most assuredly one sign of foreign substances in the water that are causing the fish difficulties.

Moving on from that understanding...the ony safe way to treat ich is with increased water temperature. Most "tropical" species can easily withstand the increase for a week or two, and I can assure you it is far safer than any preparation. Raise the tank water temperature to 86F/30C for two weeks. That's all that is needed. It is far less stress on any fish. And given that 90% of the disease issues we encounter with aquarium fish are due to stress, this is a significant issue.

This next comment won't sound encouraging, but it is probably what to expect...the puffers will not survive this. Erratic swimming is a serious issue, the fish's nervous system is usually damaged, and I have never known fish to live through it for long, and I have had it occur from a couple of things initially. High nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, high nitrate), sudden water temp fluctuations, internal protozoan, nervous disorders, genetics... I don't think there is a cure. Of course, overactive swimming like glass surfing is a different issue, but from what you've described I don;t think this is just that.

Whatever occurs, do not consider any new fish until all of this has fully played out.

 

[tropicthomas]

Hello,

Thank you for the reply this is very helpful. Yes, I am very concerned as this kind of swimming is pushing on 3 weeks now. That fully makes sense, that's why I tried to use as much 'natural treatment' as possible. I conducted a 80% water change this morning right after feeding and I will see how they do tomorrow. I also have been testing the water every day for the past month and have noticed no spikes in ammonia nitrite or nitrate. I also use seachem water stabilizer which seems to help alot. I noticed while doing my water change that there was a significant build up in the sponge filters so I cleaned them out with old tank water. I'm wondering, if there is a problem with the water quality and that problem is fixed what is the likely hood of them surviving? Ik that is a hard question to answer but was wondering if you had an experience. Also, Ich is for sure not the problem here. I have seen no symptoms like previous and the treatment seemed to work even though 2 neon tetras died. They are not flashing but rather darting around and swimming in one spot in the tank most of the time. They are so preoccupied that they are also eating less and less. If anyone is seeing this please also see the link attached and more photos from yesterday.

 

[Byron]

I also use seachem water stabilizer which seems to help alot.

Help what, exactly? This is just one more chemical irritant. I am assuming you mean Seachem's Stability. Their claim that this will keep the tank water clean and clear is nonsense. Do not use any of such additives.

I'm wondering, if there is a problem with the water quality and that problem is fixed what is the likely hood of them surviving? Ik that is a hard question to answer but was wondering if you had an experience.

If the erratic swimming is solely active normal swimming, the fish might manage with sufficient water changes. But if it is truly erratic, and I cannot tell from either video, it is unlikely. The few fish I have had develop unstable swimming never recovered. I would be prepared for their loss, but I cannot say.

Tetras are characins. All characins are highly sensitive to all chemicals, it probably has to do in part to their incredible ability to sense danger before it even happens, or to recognize a member of their shoal in distress before any other fish do. Using any chemicals with characins is not advisable unless they are absolutely essential (water conditioner for example) or are likely to deal with a specific identified health issue that has no other safer solution.

 

[tropicthomas]

Hello,
Did not know this. I assumed you were referring to the chemical treatments for ich and other parasites. Do you add anything for plant growth like seachem flourish? Also, I believe that it may be nitrite poisoning. They seem to be breathing quite a lot. However, aren't anywhere near the surface plus the test strip does not show any spike in nitrites. I will see if the 80% water change will help tomorrow. Moreover, I added some more aquarium salt. Any thoughts on salt?

 

[tropicthomas]

Hello,
Did not know this. I assumed you were referring to the chemical treatments for ich and other parasites. Do you add anything for plant growth like seachem flourish? Also, I believe that it may be nitrite poisoning. They seem to be breathing quite a lot. However, aren't anywhere near the surface plus the test strip does not show any spike in nitrites. I will see if the 80% water change will help tomorrow. Moreover, I added some more aquarium salt. Any thoughts on salt?

To add, My apologies if the videos are the best quality. If you focus on the right side of this video near the heater you can see what the erratic swimming looks like. Lots of darting around and sometimes banging into things accidentally.

 

[Byron]

Hello,
Did not know this. I assumed you were referring to the chemical treatments for ich and other parasites. Do you add anything for plant growth like seachem flourish? Also, I believe that it may be nitrite poisoning. They seem to be breathing quite a lot. However, aren't anywhere near the surface plus the test strip does not show any spike in nitrites. I will see if the 80% water change will help tomorrow. Moreover, I added some more aquarium salt. Any thoughts on salt?

Before getting to these issues...the latest video shows behaviour I would not want to see at all, and it is caused most likely by something in or that was in the water. Water changes, using nothing but a good conditioner. I still do not have much hope.

And I refer to all additives, whatever their purpose. Because of the possibility of each getting into the fish. Conditioner most of us need. Plant fertilizer is something we may need depending upon the specifics, but the point with this is that the least necessary the better. When starting a new tank, I use substrate tabs (these are a bit different, Seachem's Flourish Tabs anyway, because they do not leech into the water column) and Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for floating and non-substrate rooted plants. Usually at the recommended dose; I then reduce this back for the future according to the response of the plants. There is no point in using more than needed, this risks algae and it costs money as well as potentially harming the fish. This is a rather complex subject, let's just leave it at that.

I doubt nitrite poisoning, at least not now if nitrite is zero. Nitrite acts fast, and fish would be at the surface, gasping, with extended gill operculums and very brown-red gills. And they would not be alive very long.

Salt...another no for most freshwater fish long-term. Livebearers can handle this much better than very soft water fish. There may be cases when salt is the safest treatment, if also the most effective for "x" issue. But there is nothing here to suggest salt to me. It would help nitrite, but again I do not see evidence of nitrite. If you want to explore the effect of salt, I have an article on a couple blogs, including Neale Monks' and our member @AbbeysDad, here:

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[tropicthomas]

Hello,

This is an update for anyone interested. All fish are still alive and their eating has not changed. One of the amazon puffers is much larger than the other two and I don't think it is because he is eating more. I don't know why he would be? stress perhaps. Other than this their behavior has continued to be erratic in nature.