Algal Rollercoaster Ride

[SuperColey1]

So no matter what environment you have these two plants in, the lower parts will start to degrade as it gets longer, right? I was a bit skeptical that; I thought they was something missing in terms of nutrients or not enough nutrients etc that was causing the lower half of those 2 plants to die away.

What I was implying is that the stems at the bottom don't get wider as the plant gets taller. Then when the top breaks off that is more than likely a natural thing where the top floats off to pastures new.

You should be ending up though with stems that don't degrade to the point that they break off. The tops maybe but weekly pruning and bushing the plants up doesn't sem to make them topple in aquascaper setups. I'm not overly experienced with stems so will relearn as I go along in a couple of months time as it will be mainly stems.

Just chuck the new plants in water. I got a bag on Tuesday from someone and left it in the bag in the box till today before finally deciding to open the bag and put them in the tank.

Also got some stems 2 weeks ago from someone else in a Chinese takeaway box and put it on top of my lights. Forgot about it for a week and then fished out the mush on Tuesday this wekk. lol. Thats all been planted and some already starting to come tough nice and healthy (although still quite low at the mo. lol) Anything that breaks off or floats is pushed back into the substrate (sometimes just pushed under the substrate) All plants are pretty hardy in my opinion. they have to be or a aggressive winter or summer would render them extinct

1 and 2 are rhizoclonium.

Can't see any staghorn in 3 for all the GDA on the glass.

4 is GDA on the glass and thread/hair on the filter.

Sorting the light out would sort all of these out IMO.

By the way, I think I'm going to switch back to using TPN+. What sort of EI dose should I employ if I am to switch to using TPN products?

I used to dose 5ml daily in a ismlar sized tank to you. I had more plant mass but less light. Dose to the light given so you should add 7-8. If sorting the light out then halve that.

AC

 

[mark4785]

I used to dose 5ml daily in a ismlar sized tank to you. I had more plant mass but less light. Dose to the light given so you should add 7-8. If sorting the light out then halve that.

But EI isn't about dosing both macro and micro nutrients daily is it? If you follow the exact rules of EI you put your macro-nutrients in on say Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday and the micro-nutrients in Monday, Wednesday and Friday, with Saturday being the rest day and Sunday being maintenance. I guess with TPN+ theres a wider range of nutrients (incl magnesium and a better chelating agent; HEEDTA) as well as both kinds of nutrients (macro/micro) that are both dosed every day? That doesn't meet the definition of EI but I guess that doesn't matter to the plants?

What I was implying is that the stems at the bottom don't get wider as the plant gets taller. Then when the top breaks off that is more than likely a natural thing where the top floats off to pastures new.

You should be ending up though with stems that don't degrade to the point that they break off.

The stems are not breaking off. If you imagine the Bacopa plant which I mentioned above, it's structure is fairly basic; all you have to do is imagine a vertical line with small 2 by 2cm leaves growing immediately out of the stem (leaf is not growing on a side-shoot). Basically, the leaves that grow on the plant are in excellent condition when they first form (usually when they are growing right at the top of the vertical line). However, when the vertical line grows and more leaves grow out of it the excellently grown leaf begins to lose it's shape and succumbs to the algae you call 'rhizoclonium' growing on them. At this point I chop the vertical root in half, throw the lower degrading root and leaves away and stick the upper-excellent growth into the substrate and the process of degrading is unfortunately repeated.

The same can be applied to by Cyptocoryne Broad Leaves plant. Excellent red leaves grow out of it quickly but when they get to a certain length it's as though it can't maintain itself and it succumbs to algae growth.


With regards to lighting, I have ordered a Hagen 'Life Glo' 22" fluorescent bulb to replace my Hagen 'Power Glo' bulb. The power glo bulb is 3x as powerful in some respect so thats why I'm replacing it. At present there is 1x Power Glo and 1x Life Glo installed in the hood. Two bulbs have to be installed for the lights to come on so I'm going to trial 2x life glo's as an alternative. If the changes do nothing, I'll look into removing the reflector which doesn't look very DIY friendly to me.

 

[SuperColey1]

But EI isn't about dosing both macro and micro nutrients daily is it? If you follow the exact rules of EI you put your macro-nutrients in on say Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday and the micro-nutrients in Monday, Wednesday and Friday, with Saturday being the rest day and Sunday being maintenance. I guess with TPN+ theres a wider range of nutrients (incl magnesium and a better chelating agent; HEEDTA) as well as both kinds of nutrients (macro/micro) that are both dosed every day? That doesn't meet the definition of EI but I guess that doesn't matter to the plants?

EI is a way of simplifying things. A lot of the reasons given for its methods are simply there to appease those who doubt. i.e. the reset to prevent buildup. It is there to remove ammonia but the explanation appeases those who worry about a nitrate buildup.

Same with the seperate day dosing. It says it is there to make things easier to remember i.e. every even day (M,W,F) is macros. Every odd day is micros (T,T,S) and the Sunday is water change and dose nothing day. It also appeases those who worry about the phospahte reaction with iron.

Take a step back and think. If you dosed EI for a year then if buildup was a problem then would the 'reset' prevent it? No. It would prolong the accumulation however that would assume that 100% of the leftovers were in the water you remove. It isn't so you still will have leftovers in the tank. They will just take twice as long to be a buildup (if that is or ever was a problem)

Now think about the phosphate/iron. Dosing on seperate days would only prevent this from happening if the phospahtes were used up in the macro day before the iron went in. We of course know this isn't true.

We know this process happens but we also know that trace is the descriptive word for it's supply. the plants only need a trace. They take a teeny bit.

TPN+ uses a heavier chelator so it will kep the iron available a little longer.

I dose EI daily. macros in and the micros go in after the time it takes to put the syringe down, screw a lid on, shake the micro bottle, unscrew the lid and then fill the syringe. Approx 20seconds max apart. Not a problem.

When you get the lights sorted you may find all these 'old growth' problems abating. You are obviously getting some defficiencies in there I would guess being CO2 and the lower light will put less demand on the CO2 supply.

I think you need to start asking opinions on the things you order. You just replaced 1 T5HO tube with another T5HO. Same output of light but different colours!!! I would expect the tank will look simmer if the power Glo is a purplish colour yet the actual PAR will remain similar.

You do seem to like spending money though. lol Send some my way. I could do with some spare cash.

Are the reflectors fitted into the hood? Can you take a picture of the underside of the hood.

Maybe there is a way of fitting a glass screen or even using a condensation tray to lower the lighting down.

AC

 

[mark4785]

I think you need to start asking opinions on the things you order. You just replaced 1 T5HO tube with another T5HO. Same output of light but different colours!!! I would expect the tank will look simmer if the power Glo is a purplish colour yet the actual PAR will remain similar.

I did ask for the opinion of the person who proposed I use 2x life-glo bulbs instead of 1x life glo and 1x power glo.

He said that it may be a good option because it gives off less 'blue light' and therefore the colour temperature of the life-glo is 6700K compared to 18000K which is what the power-glo gives off.

Illustration of colour temperatures:

Quote from external source: "Chlorophyll, the most abundant plant pigment, is most efficient in capturing red and blue light."

In the Life-glo it would appear there is 80% less red light and 50% less blue light compared to the power-glo tube.

 

[SuperColey1]

Lol the old spectrum argument.

Sure you've read me and loads of others saying before to ignore the statements of X light is better than Y light and choose which one makes the tank look best to you.

The problem is that plants grow just as well under any tube you put there within reason. The PowerGlo is a purple colour right? Well if it were actually giving out purple (i.e. violet) it wouldn't be much use to plants or fish. You could wave your bank notes under it though to see if they were real)

They may try to simulate spectrum and then state they are 'full spectrum' etc but they aren't much different to each other apart from the sppearance they give to the tank.

Lots of planters are using 18000K, lots using 6500K and lots using 2500K. All with pretty much the same result. Light is light and plants adapt to it.

As a reference I get great growth. I use daylight!!!! Life Glo is........ Daylight.

I have used all the ranges from the very low Ks which are supposedly the best for plants to the very high Ks which are supposedly very poor for plants. Neither end of the 'spectrum'<---pun made any difference. Plants grew very well at both ends of the scale so I just went for the ones that made my tank look the way I wanted it to

So in essence lower or increase your W and in effect your PAR forget about tube changes making any noticeable difference to plant growth. That is real old school thinking. Something the manufacturer's marketing teams are quite happy to keep alive though

AC

 

[ian]

^^^again, I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

Lots of planters are using 18000K, lots using 6500K and lots using 2500K. All with pretty much the same result. Light is light and plants adapt to it.

I'm using 1800k at the moment, and it's just purely aesthetics. My eye appears to prefer the crisp clean look. A plant will adapt to any light given.

 

[mark4785]

So in essence lower or increase your W and in effect your PAR forget about tube changes making any noticeable difference to plant growth

Well initially I wanted to lower my W (why higher it?!), but the person who I spoke to (via the phone) at my LFS didn't know what I was talking about when I asked about the low wattage fluorescent tubes which a person from the same LFS adviced I start using 1 week prior to the phone conversation. If I remember correctly, the person advicing I ditch the Hagen life/power-glo tubes wanted me to switch to these cheaper £3-4 tubes because they give out certain "vitamins". I doubt that as much to do with wattage, but how I would know since they speak too intermediate for the novice.

I'd be really surprised if they could provide me with 2x 22"/55cm T5 tubes with lower wattage for my Ferplast hood. I've looked all over the internet and the key wattage (when you say W, I hope you're referring to wattage) seems to be 28W, no more and no less.

What I'm trying to say is, if you didn't want to swap the ballast and had to use 2x fluorescent bulbs (which apparently only exist in 28w form at a length of 55cm/22"), how on earth do you go about adapting the W?

^^^again, I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

Lots of planters are using 18000K, lots using 6500K and lots using 2500K. All with pretty much the same result. Light is light and plants adapt to it.

I'm using 1800k at the moment, and it's just purely aesthetics. My eye appears to prefer the crisp clean look. A plant will adapt to any light given.

Algae also adapts to light too. I'd like a light that causes both the plants and algae to grow slower so there isn't so much demand on nutrients and c02. I don't know whether wattage or 'vitamin' adaptations have to be undertaken to do this.

Nobody has ever explained what variable you look at to determine how fast a given light induces photosynthesis. I, of course have read into it and I understand PAR has a role to play but the articles I read just cause confusion.

 

[SuperColey1]

So in essence lower or increase your W and in effect your PAR forget about tube changes making any noticeable difference to plant growth

Well initially I wanted to lower my W (why higher it?!), but the person who I spoke to (via the phone) at my LFS didn't know what I was talking about when I asked about the low wattage fluorescent tubes which a person from the same LFS adviced I start using 1 week prior to the phone conversation. If I remember correctly, the person advicing I ditch the Hagen life/power-glo tubes wanted me to switch to these cheaper £3-4 tubes because they give out certain "vitamins". I doubt that as much to do with wattage, but how I would know since they speak too intermediate for the novice.

Because the person who advised you on ditching the Hagen was on the right lines. Most standard tubes will not have the same actula output of a decent tube. That is hit and miss though. Some standard lights are better than aquarium ones. some are a lot worse.

I'd be really surprised if they could provide me with 2x 22"/55cm T5 tubes with lower wattage for my Ferplast hood. I've looked all over the internet and the key wattage (when you say W, I hope you're referring to wattage) seems to be 28W, no more and no less.

22" T%HO are normally 24W. 22" T5NO are normally circa 14W. I am currently discussing on another forum about T5NO tubes in T5HO fixtures. Although I have always though otherwise it may well turn out that this is an option. I would wait upon further findings before doing so though It may only be certain ballasts that this is an option.

[auote]What I'm trying to say is, if you didn't want to swap the ballast and had to use 2x fluorescent bulbs (which apparently only exist in 28w form at a length of 55cm/22"), how on earth do you go about adapting the W?[/auote]
You can't 'adapt' the wattage unless the above investigation proves to be positive. however as said above 28W is not common for a 549mm tube. That standard for a T5HO at that length is 24W. T5HO is nearly always around the 1W per inch. NO tubes are alway closer to 2 thirds.

Algae also adapts to light too. I'd like a light that causes both the plants and algae to grow slower so there isn't so much demand on nutrients and c02. I don't know whether wattage or 'vitamin' adaptations have to be undertaken to do this.

Indded algae is a 'simple' plant. It can adapt to any change quicker than a 'higher' plant. Therefore changes are best kept to a minimum however you are right in thinking lowering the light (and thus removing CO2) will slow the system right down and if nothing more give you more reaction time. In all probability it will give you the chance to reduce ferts substantially and the plants may then beat off the algae with not too much problem.

Nobody has ever explained what variable you look at to determine how fast a given light induces photosynthesis. I, of course have read into it and I understand PAR has a role to play but the articles I read just cause confusion.

Don't read the articles. They are good insights but the majority are off the mark. They believe the 'hype' of K this and that and the little 'spectrum' graphs printed on the boxes and how they influence things. Best to stay simple on this whilst taking in the articles as background info. More light = fast speed. Lower light = slower speed. The higher the dial is turned the more nutrient (including CO2 is required to keep pace with uptake etc.) simple as that.

Son't know how long it will be until I find out about the ballasts. Until then reflectors out or a glass lid would be a good option.

AC

 

[mark4785]

22" T%HO are normally 24W. 22" T5NO are normally circa 14W. I am currently discussing on another forum about T5NO tubes in T5HO fixtures. Although I have always though otherwise it may well turn out that this is an option. I would wait upon further findings before doing so though It may only be certain ballasts that this is an option.

Sorry about that, I did mean 24W. I'm glad you mentioned that T5NO are typically 14w as I searched for a 549mm 14w T5NO on google (via the 'shopping' search section as opposed to 'web') and I came across a website selling a pack of 25 fluorescent tubes with the following specifications:

Brand: Sylvania
Part Number: 2761
Shape: Linear
Maximum Compatible Wattage: 14 watts
Voltage: 240 volts
Bulb Details
Type of Bulb: Flourescent tube
Cap Type: G5
EU Energy Efficiency Label: A
Luminous Flux: 1230 lumen
Wattage: 14 watts
Incandescent Equivalent: 70 watts
Bulb Features: High Efficiency T5 Tube
Colour Temperature: 4000
Colour Rendering Index (CRI): 85
Average Life: 24000 hours
Bulb Length: 549 millimetres
Mercury Content: 5
Warm Up Time: 60 seconds
Lumen Maintenance Factor at the End of Life: 95


It doesn't give the diameter but from the image of it, it looked so similar to the T5HO life-glo tube I have. I've ordered 2 x 25 tube packs as they are on sale for £3-4 each, apparently 95% off RRP!

As can be seen from the specs, the T5NO tube has a colour temp of 4000k (2400k below the T5HO life-glo I believe). I'm hoping thats a suitable temperature. I may pair the T5NO tube with T5HO life-glo. I think that will be a good combination and will result in less nutrient/c02 uptake which will of course reduce the likelihood of nutrients/c02 not being available when the plants require it.

 

[SuperColey1]

It doesn't give the diameter but from the image of it, it looked so similar to the T5HO life-glo tube I have. I've ordered 2 x 25 tube packs as they are on sale for £3-4 each, apparently 95% off RRP!

Yes it does say the diameter Bulb Features: High Efficiency T5 Tube They are 5/8ths of an inch i.e. T5. lol

You mean you bought 50 tubes? You going into business?

As can be seen from the specs, the T5NO tube has a colour temp of 4000k (2400k below the T5HO life-glo I believe). I'm hoping thats a suitable temperature. I may pair the T5NO tube with T5HO life-glo. I think that will be a good combination and will result in less nutrient/c02 uptake which will of course reduce the likelihood of nutrients/c02 not being available when the plants require it.

Remember I've said in a souplle of posts I do not know ywt if NO tubes can be put in all HO ballasts!!! Definately not mix and match. Its either 2 x NO or 2 x HO. don't mix them. If you decide to do this prior to me finding out if it will work then let us know. Shouldn't be any explosions if it won't work. Just the NO tube failing very very quickly (hours maybe) in which case you'll have your answer as to whether you can use NO in your ballast or not.

4000K is fine but as I say use 2 of them or none. They will be pinkish in colour. Suposedly the best range for plant growth but then you are reducing the actual light so whether you believe in spectrum or not it will be less light.

AC

 

[coldcazzie]

I've ordered 2 x 25 tube packs as they are on sale for £3-4 each, apparently 95% off RRP!

You mean you bought 50 tubes? You going into business?

LMAO! AC might joke about it, but if you really have bought 50, you'll have a few to spare so could I buy a couple off you?

ps, please don't ignore me like the last time I asked you a question.

 

[mark4785]

You mean you bought 50 tubes? You going into business?

You could say that lol. I always like to profit out of things, but I mainly bought that many purely because of the very low cost and because each box contains 25, so it's not as though I can opt for buying a couple.

Yes it does say the diameter Bulb Features: High Efficiency T5 Tube They are 5/8ths of an inch i.e. T5. lol

Well I didn't know 5/8ths of an inch was the diameter of ALL T5's. Again, this is the first time in my life that i've studied light bulbs strips lol.

LMAO! AC might joke about it, but if you really have bought 50, you'll have a few to spare so could I buy a couple off you?

ps, please don't ignore me like the last time I asked you a question.

I could spare a few yes, I've not received them yet though.

I didn't ignore you. If I don't respond then it's because I've unknowingly overlooked your message which isn't an act of ignoring at all.

"ig·nore (g-nôr, -nr)
tr.v. ig·nored, ig·nor·ing, ig·nores
To refuse to pay attention to; disregard."

 

[SuperColey1]

The 'T' number is how many eights of an inch the diameter of the tube is so:

T4 = 4/8ths = half an inch diameter
T5 = 5/8ths of an inch
T8 = 8/8ths of an inch = 1 inch diameter
T12 = 12/8ths of an inch = 1½ inch diameter



AC

 

[mark4785]

Well, as mentioned somewhere above (can't seem to find it!), I've bought some TPN+ but due to anxiety about it's use, I haven't really used it in the aquarium yet. Instead I did a little test to see how much Total Ammonia would arise out of applying 5ml of it into a 10 litre bucket and divided the value by 12 (since my aquarium capacity is 120 litres) to work out the Total Ammonia concentration level if the 5ml of TPN+ had been placed straight into the aquarium.

Here's what I did:

As you can see, there is a high risk that during an heat wave where tank temperature will rise, coupled with the possibility of the c02 cylinder emptying when it is unattended (thereby causing PH to rise due to no supply of c02) that more toxic NH3 will be converted from NH4. The ratio of NH3/NH4 swings in the favour of NH3 during high temperature and high PH which would be potentially devastating.

Now I know a lot of people use TPN+ so I'd like to know what people do in terms of ensuring a low temperature and PH is maintained to stop unacceptable levels of NH3 (typically 0.07 ppm or over) being formed, especially during water changes when the c02 supply is likely to be off and the fresh water is likely to have a slightly alkaline PH level.

Lastly, could someone please confirm that I've bought the right kind of glue for use in an aquarium. I read the warnings on the back and it seems to be classed as an irritant so naturally I haven't put it in to the aquarium just yet... . The product I bought can be seen below:

Front

Back

Back

Mark.

 

[PDSimon]

The glue looks fine, cyanoacrylate is what I use.

I thought TPN+ had ammonium in not ammonia?