Age old stocking question...

Ok I'm hearing the advise.....But I'm ok to add a few more corydoras? They are difficult to get hold of round my way. There was 2 in last shop only
As has been pointed out already, you will need to up your tank maintenance. Also, I'm not sure how guppies are about "pecking order" and agression toward a new one.
I would get those 2 Cory's. Have they been at the fish store for a while?
Also as has been suggested a Nerite snail would ne a nice addition ☆
 
The question was asked of me by Nemo2182 (OP) in chat, how GH affects fish. I do not like chat, so I will answer in this thread.

Each species of freshwater fish has evolved over thousands of years to function in a very specific environment. By "environment" here we are meaning everything that affects the fish's life, from the water parameters to the habitat properties (substrate, wood, rock, plants, leaves...), water flow, numbers of the species when shoaling fish are concerned, other species in the watercourse, light from the sun. All of these factors determine how the fish will function; how its physiology operates in response, how the internal processes work that maintain for example the pH of its blood the same as the water it lives in, the immune system, and so forth. Every aspect of the fish's life is governed by the environment. This is uniquely more important for fish than any land vertebrate with the exception of amphibians...and here it is water again that determines it.

The GH is the measure of dissolved calcium (primarily) in the water. Fish that have evolved in moderately hard water need this calcium. Fish that have evolved in soft water do not. Their physiology determines how they respond to whichever.

Water is continually entering the fish via osmosis through every cell, and at the gills. This is 24/7. Substances dissolved in the water enter the fish, into the bloodstream. As this water passes through the kidneys, the process of osmoregulation determines how the water is processed. Mineral salts like the calcium are extracted by the kidneys. In hard water species these mineral salts are essential to the proper functioning of the internal processes that work continually to maintain the fish's equilibrium; without these minerals the fish slowly weakens and dies. In fishes evolved in soft water, the salts are "foreign substances" that the fish does not have the ability to deal with, simply because it was never designed to do so. Calcium builds up, blocking the kidneys, and the fish dies.

The fish's internal biological processes are governed by the environmental factors mentioned above. The fish must for example regulate the pH of its blood to equal that of the water in which it lives, ensure the tissues are fed, the immune system functions, etc. The fish's physiology depends upon factors determined by the environment. As soon as these factors are changed from what the fish is programmed and designed to use, it creates stress, but even more significantly, the fish must expend considerable energy attempting to "right" what is "wrong." And generally it cannot do this, at least not for long, or depending upon the degree of difference. This means the fish slowly weakens. Usually the severe failure of the immune system causes the fish to die from some disease or issue that it normally should have easily dealt with, but could not because of its weakened state. In all cases, should the fish somehow miraculously succeed in avoiding disease, it has been weakened to such a degree that it can no longer support life processes and it dies, prematurely. There are no external signs of any of this, until the fish dies. Necropsy (autopsy in animals) can determine exactly which process failed.

The author of an article in TFH a few years back had a good analogy. The fish living in the environment for which it is designed by evolution is comparable to a car traveling along at say 30km per hour on a level road. Everything is working well, and the car reaches its end goal. But if it encounters a "foreign obstacle" like a steep hill, it must immediately kick into overdrive, and use considerably more energy to maintain the same level of speed. Thus the fish encountering any environmental factor that is outside its preference has to kick into high gear in an attempt to maintain the essential bodily functions of life. Most fish, depending upon the degree and other factors like size (larger fish species have better ability than smaller fish species), can maintain this heightened state for a brief period, to get them through some immediate problem, but not for long. The fish weakens the longer it is forced into this situation, until it simply can no longer cope.

Again, there is no external sign of this. Many will say "my fish are happy," ...but the fact is, they are anything but happy. And this is a completely insane comment...unless your fish can talk to you, there is no way any of us can ever say this. We can and must understand that when we do not provide a species with what it is programmed to expect, they will valiantly make an effort to make the best of what we have forced upon them, struggling to maintain a normal and essential set of processes, but we have thrown a wrench into the works and it does always have consequences.
 
Last edited:
The question was asked of me by Nemo2182 (OP) in chat, how GH affects fish. I do not like chat, so I will answer in this thread.

Each species of freshwater fish has evolved over thousands of years to function in a very specific environment. By "environment" here we are meaning everything that affects the fish's life, from the water parameters to the habitat properties (substrate, wood, rock, plants, leaves...), water flow, numbers of the species when shoaling fish are concerned, other species in the watercourse, light from the sun. All of these factors determine how the fish will function; how its physiology operates in response, how the internal processes work that maintain for example the pH of its blood the same as the water it lives in, the immune system, and so forth. Every aspect of the fish's life is governed by the environment. This is uniquely more important for fish than any land vertebrate with the exception of amphibians...and here it is water again that determines it.

The GH is the measure of dissolved calcium (primarily) in the water. Fish that have evolved in moderately hard water need this calcium. Fish that have evolved in soft water do not. Their physiology determines how they respond to whichever.

Water is continually entering the fish via osmosis through every cell, and at the gills. This is 24/7. Substances dissolved in the water enter the fish, into the bloodstream. As this water passes through the kidneys, the process of osmoregulation determines how the water is processed. Mineral salts like the calcium are extracted by the kidneys. In hard water species these mineral salts are essential to the proper functioning of the internal processes that work continually to maintain the fish's equilibrium; without these minerals the fish slowly weakens and dies. In fishes evolved in soft water, the salts are "foreign substances" that the fish does not have the ability to deal with, simply because it was never designed to do so. Calcium builds up, blocking the kidneys, and the fish dies.

The fish's internal biological processes are governed by the environmental factors mentioned above. The fish must for example regulate the pH of its blood to equal that of the water in which it lives, ensure the tissues are fed, the immune system functions, etc. The fish's physiology depends upon factors determined by the environment. As soon as these factors are changed from what the fish is programmed and designed to use, it creates stress, but even more significantly, the fish must expend considerable energy attempting to "right" what is "wrong." And generally it cannot do this, at least not for long, or depending upon the degree of difference. This means the fish slowly weakens. Usually the severe failure of the immune system causes the fish to die from some disease or issue that it normally should have easily dealt with, but could not because of its weakened state. In all cases, should the fish somehow miraculously succeed in avoiding disease, it has been weakened to such a degree that it can no longer support life processes and it dies, prematurely. There are no external signs of any of this, until the fish dies. Necropsy (autopsy in animals) can determine exactly which process failed.

The author of an article in TFH a few years back had a good analogy. The fish living in the environment for which it is designed by evolution is comparable to a car traveling along at say 30km per hour on a level road. Everything is working well, and the car reaches its end goal. But if it encounters a "foreign obstacle" like a steep hill, it must immediately kick into overdrive, and use considerably more energy to maintain the same level of speed. Thus the fish encountering any environmental factor that is outside its preference has to kick into high gear in an attempt to maintain the essential bodily functions of life. Most fish, depending upon the degree and other factors like size (larger fish species have better ability than smaller fish species), can maintain this heightened state for a brief period, to get them through some immediate problem, but not for long. The fish weakens the longer it is forced into this situation, until it simply can no longer cope.

Again, there is no external sign of this. Many will say "my fish are happy," ...but the fact is, they are anything but happy. And this is a completely insane comment...unless your fish can talk to you, there is no way any of us can ever say this. We can and must understand that when we do not provide a species with what it is programmed to expect, they will valiantly make an effort to make the best of what we have forced upon them, struggling to maintain a normal and essential set of processes, but we have thrown a wrench into the works and it does always have consequences.
How do I find out the GH of my water?
Also, if you have time, can you explain acidity. I remember reading somewhere on the forum that soft water is acidic? Is this true? I am beginning to understand pH now, and would like to learn more
Thanks in advance
 
How do I find out the GH of my water?
Also, if you have time, can you explain acidity. I remember reading somewhere on the forum that soft water is acidic? Is this true? I am beginning to understand pH now, and would like to learn more
Thanks in advance
try looking on your water providers website
 
How do I find out the GH of my water?
Also, if you have time, can you explain acidity. I remember reading somewhere on the forum that soft water is acidic? Is this true? I am beginning to understand pH now, and would like to learn more
The GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and pH of your water can usually be obtained from your water supply company's website or by telephoning them. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).

--------------
pH is the measurement used to tell us if something is an acid, neutral or alkaline/ base.
Pure distilled water has a no mineral content and a pH of 7.0 and is considered neutral.
If something breaks down in pure water the pH drops and becomes acidic (pH goes below 7.0).
If minerals are added to pure water the pH goes up and becomes basic or alkaline (pH goes above 7.0).

Carbonate Hardness (KH) is the measurement of carbonates and bicarbonates in the water. These normally increase the pH. When there are acids in the water, the acids cause the pH to drop. If there are plenty of carbonates/ bicarbonates in the water, they neutralise the acids and help stop the pH from dropping.

General Hardness (GH) is the measurement of minerals in the water and usually measures calcium and magnesium chlorides. The more calcium and or magnesium chlorides in the water, the harder it is.

-----------------------
If you have hard water, it contains lots of minerals and it usually contains lots of carbonates and bicarbonates. To lower the hardness, you dilute the hard water with soft water. Reverse osmosis (r/o) water, distilled water and rain water have no minerals and is very soft water. Mixing some of this soft water with the hard water will reduce the GH, KH and pH of the hard water.

If you want to reduce the pH, you can add small amounts of acidic substances like carbon dioxide (CO2), peat moss, drift wood and things like sodium biphosphate to lower the pH. These acids get neutralised by the carbonates/ bicarbonates and when the carbonates and bicarbonates have been used up, the pH drops.

--------------
To increase the GH you add minerals like calcium and magnesium chloride.

To increase the KH you add carbonates and bicarbonates (baking soda is sodium bicarbonate).
When you add carbonates & bicarbonates the pH will go up.
 
How do I find out the GH of my water?
Also, if you have time, can you explain acidity. I remember reading somewhere on the forum that soft water is acidic? Is this true? I am beginning to understand pH now, and would like to learn more
Thanks in advance

As JuiceBox52 mentioned, check the website of your water authority, or call them. You need the number and their unit of measure (there are several, ppm, mg/l, degrees, etc).

Acidity is talking pH, and tyhis is closely connected to the GH and the KH (carbonate hardness also called Alkalinity). For background, here's an excerpt from an article I wrote some years back for another site.

pH stands for pondus hydrogeni, Latin for “potential of hydrogen.” Water is made up of positively-charged hydrogen ions and negatively-charged hydroxyl ions, and pH is the measurement of the ratio of hydrogen and hydroxyl ions in a body of water. Acidic water contains more hydrogen ions, and basic (alkaline) water more hydroxyl ions; neutral water has an equal proportion. The pH is closely linked with the level of carbon dioxide (CO2) because CO2 produces carbonic acid. The hardness (GH) also impacts pH, since the carbonates bind to acids as they appear; as mentioned previously, this buffering will prevent or limit changes in pH.​
The pH is measured with a scale from 1 to 14 with 7 being neutral. Numbers below 7 indicate acidic water, increasingly more acidic as they lower, while numbers above 7 indicate basic or alkaline water, increasingly as the numbers rise. This scale is logarithmic, meaning that each unit is a ten-fold increase/decrease; so a pH of 5 is ten times more acidic than a pH of 6, and 100 times more acidic than a pH of 7, and a thousand times more acidic than a pH of 8. Fish must never be exposed to sudden pH changes approaching one unit, as this is very stressful and may kill some species.​
The impact of pH on fish is significant; water constantly enters the fish via osmosis through the cells, and the pH of the water can shift the pH of the fish’s blood if they are different. The fish must therefore regulate its internal pH accordingly, and this takes energy. Fish do this regularly in nature in response to changes in its environment, but these are usually minimal. Some fish species have a wider range of tolerance than others, for reasons that are not certain.[2] Fish that are wild caught show intolerance for hardness and pH levels that are not close to their origins. Maintaining a species in water that is reasonably close to its natural habitat is usually advisable.​

Generally, softer water will be on the acidic side (the pH will be below 7), while harder water will be on the basic side (above 7). The pH, provided it is stable, is somewhat more tolerable for fish than the GH for the reasons in my previous post. Extremes must be avoided however. But in most cases, water that is low in GH will be on the acidic side, unless something is being added to target just the pH. For example, my water source here is 7 ppm GH which is basically zero. They add soda ash (sodium carbonate) to increase the natural below 5 pH up to 7.0 or 7.2, but this dissipates out fairly quickly.
 
Soft water and acidic water are not the same thing. It is possible to have soft water with basic pH - that's what I have. GH 5 and pH around 7.4.
 
Byron my mind boggles with what you just put in this post, quickly followed by Colin_T. I love the science, but now I am just worried I am slowly killing or at best, weakening my corydoras :( I would not want to hurt them. So is it worth me mixing half distilled with half my current hard water? Will I need to add anything back that way? I want what's best for the fish

Nathan
 
I love the science, but now I am just worried I am slowly killing or at best, weakening my corydoras :( I would not want to hurt them. So is it worth me mixing half distilled with half my current hard water? Will I need to add anything back that way? I want what's best for the fish

Nathan
How hard is your water?
Captive bred Corydoras are fine in water with a GH up to 200ppm.
Wild caught Corydoras need a GH under 150ppm.

Most Corydoras sold in pet shops are captive bred, and the wild caught ones will have "Wild Caught" on the label.
 
How hard is your water?
Captive bred Corydoras are fine in water with a GH up to 200ppm.
Wild caught Corydoras need a GH under 150ppm.

Most Corydoras sold in pet shops are captive bred, and the wild caught ones will have "Wild Caught" on the label.
Apparently its 299ppm....well as tap water. Maybe I should get a test kit
 
Apparently its 299ppm....well as tap water. Maybe I should get a test kit

If you meant well water, you might want to have it professionally tested so you know exactly what is in it, for your health as much as the fishes'. You can have it tested for GH, KH and pH, and maybe iron and copper, if you have a reliable fish store; just mnake sure they give you the number and their unit of measurement so we can be certain. Vague terms like "medium hard, its OK" tell you/us nothing. Buying a test kit that you may only use once is not really worth it, but it is another option.

I mention iron and copper because they are heavy metals sometimes found in well water depending where you are and the water source, and both are toxic to humans as well as fish.
 
Byron my mind boggles with what you just put in this post, quickly followed by Colin_T. I love the science, but now I am just worried I am slowly killing or at best, weakening my corydoras :( I would not want to hurt them. So is it worth me mixing half distilled with half my current hard water? Will I need to add anything back that way? I want what's best for the fish

Nathan

The related question that often comes up in a discussion like this, after the scientific facts are laid out, is how the fish feel about it, and of course we have no way of knowing. There is still argument over whether fish can feel pain or not. There is not the slightest doubt that the fish are being impacted by water parameters that are not within their preferred range, but putting numbers on that range is also difficult. It may be that wild cories can be kept in a GH of 100 ppm, but that does not mean they will not be adversly affected. The question is, to what degree, and do they have less of a life because of it, and are they suffering...? We do not know.
 
Is that amount not going to be too much of a shock to the Cory's and Shrimp? I've heard they are both sensitive to big water changes....
I have 30 corys in one tank and over 200 shrimp in another. Both of these tanks get 75-80% every week. Shrimp are sensitive to big changes in water parameters, not to water changes itself. The best way to keep the parameters stable is to do regular large changes. That way the water in the tank is always similar to what is in your tap, and if you need to do an emergency 90% change it causes no problems.
 
I have 30 corys in one tank and over 200 shrimp in another. Both of these tanks get 75-80% every week. Shrimp are sensitive to big changes in water parameters, not to water changes itself. The best way to keep the parameters stable is to do regular large changes. That way the water in the tank is always similar to what is in your tap, and if you need to do an emergency 90% change it causes no problems.
Ok cool. And what about the mixing of distilled and hard water?Is that an option to bring the ppm down?? I didnt sleep well on the knowledge my water is 3 x the ppm they would be exposed to in wild
 
Yes that can be done. But every single water change must be done with exactly the same mixture or the GH and pH would fluctuate if the new water wasn't exactly the same as the tank water. This means always having some distilled water (or RO water) on hand in case an emergency water change is needed.
 

Most reactions

trending

Members online

Back
Top