Advice On 300L Setup

[msn]

A little background (as this is my first visit to this forum)
 
I've been keeping freshwater tropical fish for about 5 years now, in a couple of small tanks crammed into my bedroom in my parents house. I'm now in the process of buying my own house, and in preparation I've purchased a 300 l (80 USg) juwel rio tank (absolute bargain at £120 from eBay including cabinet). I've wanted to set-up a marine tank for a while now and have decided that the time is now, as I'll never be able to convince my girlfriend to get a bigger tank and it would be the perfect time to set it up from scratch after the move to the new house.
 
So I've had a decent delve into the literature online and I've decided to start off with a FOWLR so I can ease myself into the marine side of things. Along with live rock and a protein skimmer, I'd like to incorporate my tetratec ex1200 external filter into the system as a sump substitute, as I don't want to drill my tank. I've read all about canister filters being 'nitrate factories', but surely if its cleaned out regularly this won't be a problem? It would also give me room for phosphate absorbers etc and it is pretty big so would add to the water volume. There are various filtration levels inside it, including bioballs, carbonate rings and generic sponge... are these compatible with marine (assuming they are cleaned regularly)
 
Does this sound like a reasonable setup for a FOWLR setup? I'm open to suggestions about protein skimmers as well, as i'd like an internal one in my tank that isn't too intrusive or noisy, but does the job well.   I've had a look at the juwel protein skimmer as its pretty much just a black cuboid that blends into the side of the tank, but i've read some dodgy reviews.
 
Oh and I've fallen in love with a clown trigger fish at my LFS, but would my tank be too small when it gets bigger? (this is hard to get my head around as its so much bigger than what i'm used to!) Aside from this I haven't thought about stocking as its so early days
 

 

 

[Donya]

Have a look here if you haven't already: common marine setups/hardware and stuff on sumps
 
 
 
 

I'd like to incorporate my tetratec ex1200 external filter into the system as a sump substitute

 
Canisters can never really substitute for a sump, because of the water volume difference. With a canister you will get the media stash-away advantage and can also store extra rock in larger ones, but you will have none of the added stability from having the much bigger water volume. You can use an overflow if you don't want to drill, although I have never sumped a tank so that's about all I can tell you there.
 
 

I've read all about canister filters being 'nitrate factories', but surely if its cleaned out regularly this won't be a problem?
 
 

 
The "nitrate factory" thing stems from a misunderstanding of what is going on. I call it a myth since it's really down to creating a bad situation beyond the canister. Too much ammonia in the first place is what makes for too much nitrate. You can actually destabilize a tank by taking a "nitrate factory" piece of equipment away too fast, since all those bacteria that were helping you out have just been taken out of the system. The bacteria making the nitrate from nitrite are great - it's the cause of the excess ammonia that isn't. As you said, that is a maintenance and/or setup issue, and some canister setups are higher maintenance than others. A rubble-only canister may reach a point in maturity where it almost never needs internal cleaning. Denser media needs more frequent attention. 
 
 
If the canister has an open intake, it will be prone to sucking away lots of crud and food that would otherwise stay in the tank and be consumed by the CUC. So, overfeeding can happen if the filter isn't being switched off. Also, a lot of just fishy poo and other crud get sucked away (you'd think that's a good thing, right? Nope!) that would otherwise be consumed by detritivores in the tank like various worms. Sponges don't allow a culture of small macrofauna like Amphipods and worms that would eat that excess debris (whereas rubble canisters get tons of those animals), so anything that goes in and gets stuck will just rot and give you ammonia. This is why sponges and other dense media get such a bad rap in the hobby. Too much large waste gets sucked away, it gets trapped in some materials more easily than others, flow decreases, stuff rots, and nitrate is made eventually. If you prefilter your canister, it keeps the large stuff in the tank where macro animals can eat it or where you can dispose of it easily by changing or cleaning the prefilter. The innards of the canister will stay much, much cleaner with a prefilter. Flow will be better, and you should not have crud accumulation issues if you keep up by doing regular checkups at water changes. Animals like shrimp, urchins, and snails will sometimes feed on the prefilter; the prefilter also stops soft-bodied animals like snails from getting trapped in slotted intakes.
 
 

There are various filtration levels inside it, including bioballs, carbonate rings and generic sponge... are these compatible with marine (assuming they are cleaned regularly)
 

 
As someone who runs a 55gal with two canisters, my take is that bioballs and ceramic medica can work but are more maintenance than they're worth. It's easier to have either rock rubble (essentially develops its own CUC over time) or just chemical media with something to catch particulates coming first, like a filter pad or thin layer of sponge that gets cleaned weekly.
 
All that said...you will still have better stability and less work to do with a sump and an overflow. Sumps are still the far more recommended road to take even if you need to use an overflow.
 
 
EDIT: forgot to add a link to the sump thread at the top.

 

[msn]

Thanks for your detailed reply.
 
Ok, i appreciate that canisters may not be the best way to go compared to a sump for water volume, but a 300L tank should be large enough to remain relatively stable so long as its not overstocked and maintenance is carried out regularly?
 
If clogged sponges within the filter will ultimately lead to nitrate production, this can be resolved by cleaning the sponges regularly, whilst leaving the carbonate untouched to retain the nitrifying bacteria colonies? 
 
What do you mean by a pre-filter? Is this just some kind of small attachment on the intake tube for the external filter?
 
Basically what I gather from your post is that a canister is fine if it's maintained correctly... unless i'm an idiot

 

[Donya]

Ok, i appreciate that canisters may not be the best way to go compared to a sump for water volume, but a 300L tank should be large enough to remain relatively stable so long as its not overstocked and maintenance is carried out regularly?

 
 
True, but the general rule in marine is that, when possible to do, more volume = better. More volume also means you can support a bigger biolad. You can also fit reactors/skimmers in a sump that would otherwise have to be hang-on. If you really really don't want a sump though, they aren't mandatory - just useful if they can be accommodated. 
 
 

If clogged sponges within the filter will ultimately lead to nitrate production, this can be resolved by cleaning the sponges regularly, whilst leaving the carbonate untouched to retain the nitrifying bacteria colonies?

 
Yes, but it is better to just go with rubble if you actually want the biofiltration rather than a mechanical filtration layer before chemical media. IME, rubble > sponge for both less reliance on maintenance and more filtration boosting, since rubble allows for more biodiversity.
 
 

What do you mean by a pre-filter? Is this just some kind of small attachment on the intake tube for the external filter?

 
 
Anything that stops large particulates and other waste from ever entering the filter. You can get pre-made ones like this:
http/www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21426&cmpid=03csegpl&ref=6111&subref=AA&CAWELAID=525429889&catargetid=1570177168&cadevice=c&cagpspn=pla
or make your own from filter pads or sponge by just cutting a slit down the middle and fitting it onto the existing intake. 
 
 
 

Basically what I gather from your post is that a canister is fine if it's maintained correctly... unless i'm an idiot

 
 
Yes, and when sumps aren't an option for whatever reason they can be quite useful for stashing larger volumes of chemical media than hang-on options allow.

 

[msn]

Again, thanks for the reply.
 
I think i'll rethink a sump, will just depend on if i can fit one of my old tanks inside the cabinet,might require some modification which will depend on my available time and skill, I guess i could even incorporate the external filter as the return pump combined with extra space for live rock filtration. Just hope the cabinet can take all that weight...  
 
p.s. the whole notion of a prefilter to stop crud entering the filter makes me laugh as i'm so used to the filter being used to collect said crud!