About To Get Tank - Concerned About Substrate/filter/vacuum

Leila2

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Hello. I am about to get a 4 foot tank (36 UK gallons) and I am really excited about it. I last had a tropical aquarium as a teen, over 20 years ago!
The second hand tank I will soon own comes with undergravel filter. I have already bought some Tetra Plant complete Substrate and ordered some medium pea gravel to go over the top of that. I think there will be some kind of layer of filter wool over the top of the undergravel filter. What I am wondering about is whether the Tetra plant substrate and gravel layer will be okay over this type of filter - because I am not sure if this is compatible.

Also I understand this assembly would need regular vacuuming to clean the gravel and I can picture that mixing the under layer of Tetra Plant substrate up with the top gravel layer which doesn't seem like a good idea!

Can anyone confirm that all this should in fact work out okay? :unsure:
 
Welcome Leila. as far as the under gravel filter, it seems almost all people here use either HOB's or cannisters. I prefer HOB's because they simpler to deal with for me 'cause I'm a newbie. Most of the veterans prefer the cannisters. Maybe you should post this in the hardware section for more experienced people.

Anyways, welcome.
 
Welcome Leila. as far as the under gravel filter, it seems almost all people here use either HOB's or cannisters. I prefer HOB's because they simpler to deal with for me 'cause I'm a newbie. Most of the veterans prefer the cannisters. Maybe you should post this in the hardware section for more experienced people.

Anyways, welcome.

Thanks for the advice. I decided to use a Fluval4 and get a Tetratec as well so I can use one and have the other as a spare. I want a planted tank so the undergravel filter seems a bad idea. Now I am wating for the water to clear since I put the substrate (very carefully) into the tank AFTER putting the water in. That was sheer impatience! I tested if the tank was leaking and then decided I would not drain it before adding the substrate. The filter has been running for 15 hours and gone from impenitrable fog to being about half as bad. I expect it will take another day or so to really clear. I doubt it would be a lot less cloudy if I had done things the right way around but it would have been faster!

I really want to avoid a C02 system and am hoping that as long as the substrate is reasonably fertile I can get away without one.
 
You might have been better to rinse the substrate first. I rinsed all mine in a bucket before adding it, and I added it the way you added yours (filled up with water first then added the substrate) and it went a little cloudy for about 2 minutes.

A day or two to clear is nothing though compared to the seemlessly endless wait for the tank to cycle. I'd figure atleast a month maybe two before the tank will be cycled and ready for fish.
 
You might have been better to rinse the substrate first. I rinsed all mine in a bucket before adding it, and I added it the way you added yours (filled up with water first then added the substrate) and it went a little cloudy for about 2 minutes.

A day or two to clear is nothing though compared to the seemlessly endless wait for the tank to cycle. I'd figure atleast a month maybe two before the tank will be cycled and ready for fish.

I did rinse the gravel but not the Tetra plant complete substrate - so most of the cloudiness will be because of that. Is it essential to wait a month to cycle the tank even when using chemicals that claim to speed things up so you can introduce fish after a few days? I would certainly check the water chemistry before putting in any fish. But I have a smaller 8 gallon tank that is intended for quarantine use and I was intending to use Nutrafin Cycle to allow me to stick a bunch of neon tetras into the small tank after no longer than a week... Is that a big mistake?

Also - I couldn't find this info when I did a search, but is it really necessary to have a guard on a heater? Will plants get scalded on it? Thanks so much for your help!
 
You have the choice between a fishless cycle or a fish-in cycle. Most people 'choose' a fishless cycle given the choice as it's a lot less work. In reality most people end up doing a fish-in cycle as they don't realise they need to do a cycle until they already have fish!

Have a read in the beginners section on here. There are guides to both methods. Fishless Cycling is the most humane way to do it.

The Bacteria in a bottle products are very unlikely to work, there are a few claims of success when the product has been properly refrigerated but most people see them as a waste of time/money.

Neons are one of the worst fish to put in early - they should only be put in after the tank has matured for 6 months or so.


The normal process for a fishless cycle in very basic terms is:

Fill tank with dechlorinated water
Connect Heater and filter up - and get things running
Add liquid ammonia to the tank
Monitor levels and re-dose the tank with ammonia when it drops to zero (only add once a day though)
Keep monitoring levels until both the nitrite and ammonia levels are at 0ppm 12 hours after adding ammonia.
At this point you have sufficient bacteria to process the fish waste.
Now do a fullish water change
Check levels for a couple of days then add fish.

I'm currently doing my first fishless cycle and I'm about 3 weeks in, hoping to be somewhere close in the next couple of weeks.
 
Hi Leila2 and welcome to TFF!

I'm interested to know the extent of your desire to do a "planted tank." Since you went to the trouble to get a special plant substrate and plan two substrate layers and you are aware that CO2 is used in planted tanks, the possibility is raised that really want to launch in to the "Planted Tank" hobby, rather than the "Beginner Tropical Fish" hobby. They have become somewhat separate things and this sub-forum is more about the latter, whereas our planted tank sub-forum is more about the former. Depending on which goal you want most to reach, the startup things you do can make a difference. (more on that later.)

Carbon is one of the 17 or so necessary nutritents for plants but it is a very special one because its involved in the constant production of sugars that transport energy throughout the plant, powering the work done by all the plant cells. Land plants have abundant access to carbon via CO2 in the air. Plants that emerge from the water surface also have this plentiful access. But fully submerged underwater plants have much less CO2 by comparison and, surprisingly, many have never evolved to be as effective at getting their carbon. Helping plants cope with this problem turns out to be a key thing in keeping aquarium plants. In fact, carbon is one of the key skill sets, along with lighting and fertilization and algae.

There are currently three mainstream ways of delivering carbon. One is termed "DIY" and involves do it yourself fermentation bottles to bubble CO2 into the tank. Another is "Liquid Carbon" and involves buying a constant supply of a complex chemical that delivers carbon to the plant in an intermediate organic form it can use. And finally there is the delivery of fine CO2 bubbles to the tank water via a "reactor" or other device powered by the release of pressurized CO2 from big metal cylinders like scuba divers use. Its a no-contest win for "pressurized." This is by far the superior method for carbon delivery, but it has the highest up-front cost and is pretty technical. DIY delivers real CO2 but the process quickly becomes fussy and frustrating. Liquid carbon isn't as effective as CO2 and still costs quite a bit. So all 3 have serious negatives, but the truth is that all fast-growing serious planted tanks are getting carbon delivery to the plants. (There are exceptions, namely NPTs (natural planted tanks, with real dirt) and super-slow-growth tanks, but these exceptions fall somewhat outside what the mainstream calls the planted tank hobby.)

The special substrate you have is a good thing but its better to know now that it will not make up for not dealing with the essentials of carbon, light and fertilization. A good substrate is considered a "backup" addition to a mainstream planted tank, it tides you over if you miss dosing the water with the right fertilizers for a day or if there's a problem with carbon delivery perhaps. Its not a substitute, generally. Its not a main way to accomplish the task of beautiful plants.

OK, so let's get back to why this level of detail matters now, when your still planning and starting. Well, if you were to really decide to make the commitment to attempting a true planted tank, then there is a way to go about it that is a type of "fish-in" cycle, with a lot of plants, and its completely different from what we do over here in "New to the Hobby." If you go over to the planted tank section, the planted guys (Aaron, Dave Spencer, AC and others) can guide you through that process and its a "legit" and really nice way to start a new tank. But it does take some commitment and some expense and time.

If in fact this was *not* what you meant when you said "planted tank" and you were just stringing those two words together and wanted a fairly common tropical fish beginners tank "with live plants in it" then that's a different beast and that's what we do many times a week over here in the beginners section and involves usually a "Fishless Cycle." This too takes patience and time but you've stumbled onto "the real thing" here at TFF, a big collection of lots of serious hobbyists of all types with lots of available information that can save you tons of mistakes.

Anyway, I guess that's enough for tonight and I'm sure the members will pick up on your questions tomorrow.

~~waterdrop~~ :)
ps. Fantastic that you dumped the undergravel filter, they cause no end of headaches for beginners and are even more trouble with plants. Tropical_Fish's advice up there is good, the bottled bacteria products almost never work and are playing on your desire to "get fish quick," which unfortunately is just not the way to go. Understanding the Nitrogen Cycle is a core skill of the overall hobby and in most cases Fishless Cycling is key and a fascinating learning experience.
 
Hi Leila2 and welcome to TFF!

I'm interested to know the extent of your desire to do a "planted tank." Since you went to the trouble to get a special plant substrate and plan two substrate layers and you are aware that CO2 is used in planted tanks, the possibility is raised that really want to launch in to the "Planted Tank" hobby, rather than the "Beginner Tropical Fish" hobby. They have become somewhat separate things and this sub-forum is more about the latter, whereas our planted tank sub-forum is more about the former. Depending on which goal you want most to reach, the startup things you do can make a difference. (more on that later.)

Carbon is one of the 17 or so necessary nutritents for plants but it is a very special one because its involved in the constant production of sugars that transport energy throughout the plant, powering the work done by all the plant cells. Land plants have abundant access to carbon via CO2 in the air. Plants that emerge from the water surface also have this plentiful access. But fully submerged underwater plants have much less CO2 by comparison and, surprisingly, many have never evolved to be as effective at getting their carbon. Helping plants cope with this problem turns out to be a key thing in keeping aquarium plants. In fact, carbon is one of the key skill sets, along with lighting and fertilization and algae.

There are currently three mainstream ways of delivering carbon. One is termed "DIY" and involves do it yourself fermentation bottles to bubble CO2 into the tank. Another is "Liquid Carbon" and involves buying a constant supply of a complex chemical that delivers carbon to the plant in an intermediate organic form it can use. And finally there is the delivery of fine CO2 bubbles to the tank water via a "reactor" or other device powered by the release of pressurized CO2 from big metal cylinders like scuba divers use. Its a no-contest win for "pressurized." This is by far the superior method for carbon delivery, but it has the highest up-front cost and is pretty technical. DIY delivers real CO2 but the process quickly becomes fussy and frustrating. Liquid carbon isn't as effective as CO2 and still costs quite a bit. So all 3 have serious negatives, but the truth is that all fast-growing serious planted tanks are getting carbon delivery to the plants. (There are exceptions, namely NPTs (natural planted tanks, with real dirt) and super-slow-growth tanks, but these exceptions fall somewhat outside what the mainstream calls the planted tank hobby.)

The special substrate you have is a good thing but its better to know now that it will not make up for not dealing with the essentials of carbon, light and fertilization. A good substrate is considered a "backup" addition to a mainstream planted tank, it tides you over if you miss dosing the water with the right fertilizers for a day or if there's a problem with carbon delivery perhaps. Its not a substitute, generally. Its not a main way to accomplish the task of beautiful plants.

OK, so let's get back to why this level of detail matters now, when your still planning and starting. Well, if you were to really decide to make the commitment to attempting a true planted tank, then there is a way to go about it that is a type of "fish-in" cycle, with a lot of plants, and its completely different from what we do over here in "New to the Hobby." If you go over to the planted tank section, the planted guys (Aaron, Dave Spencer, AC and others) can guide you through that process and its a "legit" and really nice way to start a new tank. But it does take some commitment and some expense and time.

If in fact this was *not* what you meant when you said "planted tank" and you were just stringing those two words together and wanted a fairly common tropical fish beginners tank "with live plants in it" then that's a different beast and that's what we do many times a week over here in the beginners section and involves usually a "Fishless Cycle." This too takes patience and time but you've stumbled onto "the real thing" here at TFF, a big collection of lots of serious hobbyists of all types with lots of available information that can save you tons of mistakes.

Anyway, I guess that's enough for tonight and I'm sure the members will pick up on your questions tomorrow.

~~waterdrop~~ :)
ps. Fantastic that you dumped the undergravel filter, they cause no end of headaches for beginners and are even more trouble with plants. Tropical_Fish's advice up there is good, the bottled bacteria products almost never work and are playing on your desire to "get fish quick," which unfortunately is just not the way to go. Understanding the Nitrogen Cycle is a core skill of the overall hobby and in most cases Fishless Cycling is key and a fascinating learning experience.

Thanks to you and Tropical_Fish for the advice. I will really have to give this more thought. Today I got some bunches of "easy to grow" plants from Ebay and have put them in - with a degree of skepticism over whether they'll survive. I'll have to arrange the c02 and further fertiliser then. I plan having the foreground colonised by moss balls - trying to keep the level of challenge down! I tried to post a picture of the tank from photobucket but none of the links seems to work.
 
The little community beginner tank that I help my son keep not getting aggressive planted tank treatment. Our light is less than 1.5 watts/gallon, the substrate has flourite and the plants are specifically "low light easy plants": sword, anubias, cyrpts and java fern. We full dose liquid carbon daily and try to add nutrients in a daily pattern such that no nutrient, macro or micro will be in short supply by the end of the week when the 50-60% water change clears it out but the nutrient amounts are pretty small as we're not overly heavily planted.

I'm quite fascinated with planted tanks and have been trying to learn what I can about it that last 2 years or so but I'm patient to a point most could not stand as far as delaying putting my learning to the test. Practicing just parts of it, like I do, is a way to go but really if you want it to really take off you should probably put your hardhat on and think about pressurized in my opinion.

~~waterdrop~~
 
The bottom link on the photo bucket page that starts with a code, the last of the four, will post a picture here by just being pasted into your thread as if it were text. I like to use my account for all kinds of pictures like this one of a lilac in bloom.

[img]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/Oldman1947/Flowers/Lilac3.jpg

If your easy grow plants are low light plants, be careful about how you plant things like java fern or anubias as they cannot take their rhizomes being planted and will promptly die if it is. Other than that, a low light plant selection will go a long way to making the tank more attractive for you.
 

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