A Sunny Good Morning To You All!

[Schmill]

First of all, hi all, just signed up and hoping to settle in nicely.
I used to keep tropical fish about 10 years ago, but back then my parents were 'in charge'.
I've just decided to get back into it, hoping my own children will now get something from it too.

So my tank is a standard 60L tank, (60x30x35), and I'm using a gravel substrate, interpet in-tank canister filter, and a 'feature' with a long airstone in it.

I only set the tank up on Sunday 6th, so it currently has no fish in it, but it does have 6 or so live plants. I also added API Stress coat as a declorinator when I filled the tank, and then Stress Zyme a few hours later to get the filter going. The water temperature is holding nicely at the right levels, and I decided yesterday (8th) to do a water test, to see how things were settling down.

To do this I used the API 5-in-1 strips, (not super accurate I know, but a nice quick check I thought), and also the API ammonia test kit and these were the results:

GH: 180
KH: 240
PH: 9
No2-: 0 - 0.5
No3-: 80
Ammonia 0 - 0.25

I believe these are all measured in ppm.

Looking at this I was at first a bit shocked to find that the PH was that high, but then comparing this to the 'hardness' measurements I would guess it is expected?

Now the questions...

1) Will it sort itself out over the course of the rest of the week? (it's only been running 2 days so far).
2) If not, then do I try and lower the PH, or do I try and lower the hardness and hope that this brings the PH down?

The tank was filled with tap water treated as detailed about, but I do have access to some R.O water at a friends house a few miles away. Is it worth changing some of my water for the R.O water, and if so, can anyone suggest what sort of proportion should be changed?

Lastly, do you think I will be ok to get fish this weekend if I sort this out now, (if not there will be an upset little boy to deal with )

Thanks all & once again, "Hi!"

 

[waterdrop]

Welcome Schmill!

You are doing so many things right! Very rare to see someone who finds this forum -before- they've added fish! And you already seem to know many of the measurements to worry about!

Breaks my heart to say this but the very best thing you could do, if you can make yourself do it, is take a deep breath and extend your pause before giving in to your son's desire for immediate gratification. The fundamental problem is that having one or more fish die is -even more- disappointing than having to wait for fish -- very hard to wrap your emotions around but has been proven time and again by parents here.

One of the best things this forum can offer is information and continuing help about a thing called "fishless cycling." This is a practical process, developed around the 1980's and getting better bit by bit since then that helps you create the most essential tool of a healthy aquarium, a "bio-filter." You may have experienced info about this but I'll assume you haven't. Most beginners assume a filter is a thing you buy and its ready to go once you set it up!

Not true! While filters also have a debris-removing mechanical funtion and an optional/occasional chemical function, their primary function is as a bio-filter, to help carry out a process called the "Nitrogen Cycle." (you can see some charts about it on Wikipedia.) The media in a new filter is sterile and non-functional in this aspect and needs to have two bacterial populations grown in it to make it functional. You can read all about the process in "rdd1952"s pinned article at the top of the "New to the Hobby" section of the forums (which is where you should subsequently move your questions. (into the "New to the Hobby" forum, that is))

The rough part about this is that this fishless cycling (not to be confused with "fish-in" cycling, a much harder and more laborious process) is that while it can be fast, taking only a period of days, it is often longer and can indeed take many weeks. But the result is a very healthy environment, ready for fish and fish that don't mysteriously die!

I too am helping my son set up an aquarium. Its very hard convincing the rest of the family that this "fishless cycling" needs to happen but it can be done. I've concentrated on getting my son involved in learning to use the test kit and learning about the nitrogen cycle and even how it all pertains to nature in general (depends on their age!)

Anyway, if you decide to go this route, I hope to see you over in the "New to the Hobby" section and you'll find tons of great TFF members who will almost always be very helpful. One of our first tasks will be to convince you to toss out those worthless test strips and get a good freshwater master test kit based on liquid reagent tests. Another task will be help you align the most imporant things to learn and set aside less important things. Test kits are important, correct cycling is important, water changes and the techniques for them are important - those are the top things to start learning.

Good Luck! ~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miss Wiggle]

welcome to the forum

waterdrops advice is spot on, take a look into fishless cycling. can't do any harm taking 20 mins of your time to do some reading at the very least so check out the pinned topics.

the other thing worth note, which you have touched on is your sky high pH reading. I strongly suspect that if you test it with a better quality test kit you'll get a different (and much more normal) result. i've always said the test strips are not worth the paper their printed on, even as an indicative reading. Chuck them in the bin and get a liquid test kit.

 

[Schmill]

Many thanks to you both.
Waterdrop, I am familiar with the biological aspect of the filtration system, as I used to be an avid pond keeper before moving house, but thanks for your information on it also. This was one of the main reasons I went for the in-tank filter that I did, as it has bio-media in it ready for colonisation, and also the reason I added the API Stress Zyme, as I believe this is supposed to add the bacterial and get the cycle going.
I've never even heard of the cycling methods that are in the post you mentioned, so I've had a good read, and will have another read again later to make sure I understand it
I'm not even sure that the aquatic place sells ammonia, but I'll check again, (and I see there is a thread for that too if not ).

One thing though, all the cycling threads discuss the balancing of the bio-filter with regards to the nitrogen cycle, and getting the bacteria up to a suitable level, but presumably all of this will do nothing to affect either my water hardness or the high ph I have? If thats the case, what can / should I do about those?

Can you recommend a decent liquid test kit, that won't break the bank? I have an API liquid test kit already for ammonia, and one for either nitrite or nitrate, (can't remember which off hand), but thats it, and the individual kits seem very expensive?

 

[pastabake]

I too live in Bedfordshire and while my GH&KH are also high the pH is only 7.8 so definitely worth checking again.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

the stress zyme 'claims' to help this process. it actually just contains a v small amount of ammonia. it's nowhere enough to cycle the tank for you. take a look into fishless cycling, i get the feeling you'll be a convert. the lfs won't sell ammonia, but boots do so it's easy to get hold of and only a few quid

although it's some duplication as you have some of the kits, you can get the api master test kit (continiang ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph which are the ones you absolutley need) for around £18. i also recommend the nutrafin kits, but they are priced similarly to the api one's so no cost advantage, they're just both good options.

interestingly is stress zyme the one that claims to help fish produce more of their natural beneficial slime coating?

it does this by containing a mild irritant to encourage slime on the fish, fish are perfectly capable of producing it should they need to so to my mind that's probably not the best approach to take!!

 

[hondadal]

In the S.E. of England you will always have hard water out of your tap, PH values can be altered by the amount of air your pumping into the tank also, if it remains alarmingly high when you test with a proper kit try turning of the air feature and see what difference that makes

 

[Miss Wiggle]

oh, one other thing to be aware of with high pH, is that it affects the toxicity of any ammonia present in the water. at a high pH ammonia is more toxic than the same concetration of ammonia would be at a low level. so with high pH in your tap water that again supports fishless cycling as the exposure to ammonia for your fish would be worse in your tank than it would in (e.g.) my tank with a pH of around 7.2, fishless cycling means the fish shouldn't be exposed to ammonia at all.

 

[Schmill]

In the S.E. of England you will always have hard water out of your tap, PH values can be altered by the amount of air your pumping into the tank also, if it remains alarmingly high when you test with a proper kit try turning of the air feature and see what difference that makes

Thanks for all the info folks, well tonight I tested my tap water, (again with the strips as I can't get another kit until at least the weekend).

The tap water maxes out the strips on GH (180), and also on KH (240), which are the same readings I get from the tank.
In fact the only reading that is different in the tap to the tank is the pH, which is 7.75 at the tap & 9 in the tank.

The post quoted above though does mention about air pumping into the tank, and I had been running my filter/pump with venturi at full whack, as well as an airpump feeding an ornament with a long airstone in it. I have now switched both of those off, (filter/pump still running, just no venturi), so will check again in a few days, unless of course I manage to get ammonia in the meantime, because I now understand that will send the pH crazy anyway

So all in all, I don't think the tank has started any sort of cycle yet, it's got no ammonia, but when it does it will be incredibly toxic because of the pH, which in turn will be extremely hard to do anything about because of the hardness...

What a great start - lol

Now to find out where my nearest Boot's is...

 

[seangee]

In the S.E. of England you will always have hard water out of your tap, PH values can be altered by the amount of air your pumping into the tank also, if it remains alarmingly high when you test with a proper kit try turning of the air feature and see what difference that makes

Thanks for all the info folks, well tonight I tested my tap water, (again with the strips as I can't get another kit until at least the weekend).

The tap water maxes out the strips on GH (180), and also on KH (240), which are the same readings I get from the tank.
In fact the only reading that is different in the tap to the tank is the pH, which is 7.75 at the tap & 9 in the tank.

The post quoted above though does mention about air pumping into the tank, and I had been running my filter/pump with venturi at full whack, as well as an airpump feeding an ornament with a long airstone in it. I have now switched both of those off, (filter/pump still running, just no venturi), so will check again in a few days, unless of course I manage to get ammonia in the meantime, because I now understand that will send the pH crazy anyway

So all in all, I don't think the tank has started any sort of cycle yet, it's got no ammonia, but when it does it will be incredibly toxic because of the pH, which in turn will be extremely hard to do anything about because of the hardness...

What a great start - lol

Now to find out where my nearest Boot's is...

Do you have any rocks or stones in the tank. That might account for the higher PH. Or it could be your gravel. If this is the case and you can remove whatever is pushing up the PH it would be better to keep your PH at the same level as the tap water. Most fish will adapt to whatever you have but they do not like sudden changes - and life is so much easier f you can do your water changes out of your own taps

 

[Mikaila31]

Air will do nothing to affect the ph. Testing with the strips is really pointless, before you worry about the ph you need to test it with a good liquid test kit. (I also recommend the AIP mater test kits) Otherwise you may be trying to fix a problem that doesn't even exist.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Air will do nothing to affect the ph. Testing with the strips is really pointless, before you worry about the ph you need to test it with a good liquid test kit. (I also recommend the AIP mater test kits) Otherwise you may be trying to fix a problem that doesn't even exist.

wholeheartedly agree.

need to diagnose the problem correctly before you can fix it.

 

[Schmill]

Ok thanks all, will try and get a liquid test kit asap then.
The only things in the aquarium are the gravel, the heater, the filter/pump, an ornamental rock thing from the aquatic shop, and 6 plants, so not sure what will have swung the pH, (if indeed it has changed).
Also speaking to pastabake, as they are from the same area as I, apparently the UK limit for nitrates in tap water is 50mg/L, (or 50ppm), and the test strips are apparently showing my tapwater at 80 ppm for Nitrate.
Not impressed and will definitly have a moan at the shop / API if the liquid test kit reveals significantly different results, the strips aren't exactly cheap, and without a resource like these forums you would just take them at face-value, (I was!)

 

[Miss Wiggle]

sadly you'll find a lot of the stuff sold in fish shops is overpriced and useless. stick the work 'aquarium' on anything and the price doubles.

like you buy 'aquarium salt. it's plain old sodium chloride (and is useless anyway) yet costs 5 times the price of normal salt.

just have to get used to it and watch out for the rubbish. sure we've all spent some of our hard earned cash on things we don't really need at some point.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, more agreement here.

LFS(Local Fish Store): A local retail place you go after you have armed yourself with information from TFF and the web and books. You only go there when you need specific supplies in a pressing way or perhaps when you need a look at the fish stocks. A few are lucky enough to have really nice stores run by nice folks but these are rare. Better to have friendly talk but not delve into the advice area.

API Stress Coat: This is one of the better dechlorination/dechloramination products and I purchased a bottle, remembering it from the 1970's. The Aloe function is not needed, as MW says, but I would use it up before switching. Seachem Prime is a better, cheaper product (more concentrated, so goes farther.)
Whoops! -- you said Stress Zyme, not Stress Coat, right? I think MW is right... half gallon of pure ammonia from the grocery was a buck(pound?) for me, whereas same amount of ammonia in Stress Zyme would be (20 pounds?) and wouldn't work as well.

API Freshwater Master Test Kit: This is the one I use and it has been great! I've since picked up an extra individual API kit for ammonia as I used that one the most.

API or Tetratest GH/KH kits: helpful for verifying your buffering situation since pH will be an issue for you (or maybe just already knowing it will be high means you won't really need these kits anytime soon..)

gotta run,
~~waterdrop~~