A Little Help For A Novice

[Nifheim]

Hello,
First post of many I am sure. I wanted to give my history to put in perspective my desperation right now.

Some history:
I purchased a Betta for a xmas gift and put him in a 5 gal tank that was running for two weeks. My father who had kept fish for YEARS told me just to run the tank for a week before getting the fish (which I did). So I go buy my Betta and the guy says buy more fish because they can get along with other fish (I joined a betta fish forum and did my research as well) and so I purchased two platy fish and three TINY neons. The first night the Betta fish ate the neons, 5 days later one platy gives birth and I scoop out the babies and put them in a glass bowl. Betta is now aggressive to the platy fish and harasses them. Then I notice major issues with the tank at the same time where the water stinks and one platy is gasping for air. Amonia, so do a 50 perc. water chanage. She dies the next day. So that leaves me with a bowl of babies, one platy and the betta who is picking on the platy. So I put the betta in a vase because I have no other tank to put the platy fish in.

I never heard of cycling even though I was researching, my father who took care of multi tanks for so long gave up the hobby 15 years ago and I now realize why he never heard of it since it is a fairly new concept. So I learned somewhat from that mistake.

Current:
So I purchase a establish 10 gal tank to put the platy and put a nursery box in for the babies. Put the water in (mix of dechlorinated water and some of my 5 gal tank water) and BOOM huge cloud. Figured it would settle but its two days into the cycle and its still cloudy. Did a 10% water change this morning. I did change the filter cartridge (found out that was a bad idea). So what to do? My levels seem fine in the 10 gal and I am doing 20% water changes in the 5 gal to keep the amonia levels min while it gets established - want the betta in that tank anyway so a tad bit high amonia with me keeping on water changes should be fine. I need to get my betta back in his 5 gal since i feel bad he is in a vase and my babies need a filtered tank, so what is the deal with the cloudy water, is this a death sentence or can I just put the babies in.

Big breath.

Thanks!

 

[Schmill]

Do you have a filter running on the tank?

If the tank is only going to be for the babies and you have no ammonia or nitrItes in there then you can put the babies in. They will produce so little bio-load on their own that the filter won't need much of a bacteria colony to cope with them. If you are also putting the one adult platy in there then it will be an idea to keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrIte levels and do water changes as needed, but I don't envisage any spikes with such a light load.

 

[Nifheim]

Do you have a filter running on the tank?

If the tank is only going to be for the babies and you have no ammonia or nitrItes in there then you can put the babies in. They will produce so little bio-load on their own that the filter won't need much of a bacteria colony to cope with them. If you are also putting the one adult platy in there then it will be an idea to keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrIte levels and do water changes as needed, but I don't envisage any spikes with such a light load.

Yes both tanks have a filter and both are running fine. What my plan is to have the 5 gal for the betta alone and the 10 gal will have the one platy fish (one fish) and then the nursery tub with the babies (now 10) in it (this is the one with the cloudy water). I am checking daily on the readings and adjusting the water as need be until the tank is finished its full cycle. It is a pain but I deserve it after not reading up on fishless cycles.

I was thinking it should be okay since the bio load is min since its so little fish in the tank. Thank you.

 

[waterdrop]

So I see oldman47 here probably writing some of the same things I'm about to say... If I'm reading right it sounds like you're just asking why the new water in the 10g is cloudy, this being the tank you're about to start a Fish-In cycle with.

Whenever you dechlor tap water and put it in a new tank there's a good chance you'll get cloudy water because there are organic substances in the sealing materials and in the tap water itself. Once the deterrent of chlorine/chloramine is removed, the ever-present heterotrophic bacteria will quickly feed on these tiny bits of organic molecules, divide like crazy and reach a point where their cells (a "bacterial bloom") will be visible to the naked eye.

Its unimportant and of no consequence to what you're trying to do. It will go away. The important thing now is to be ready with the correct type of test kit and to understand the goals and procedures of fish-in cycling. Your goal will be to use your test kits to be a detective and figure out what percentage of water should be changed and how often it should be changed so that the ammonia and nitrite levels vary between zero ppm and 0.25ppm and don't go over 0.25ppm.

Let us know if that makes sense,

~~waterdrop~~

 

[backtotropical]

Hi Nifheim and to TFF,

Schmill and Waterdrop are getting you off on the right foot there. You have come to the right place.

Cycling, although it was known about years and years ago, wasn't 'common knowledge'. From what I have heard, it was more thought of by maybe all but the most scientific of aquarists as a 'balance' in the tank, which i suppose it is. It wasn't understood to the same degree as it is now.

I would suggest that the internet, and particularly forums such as this one, has spread the word if you like. We are no longer limited to getting information from our LFS and the neighbour 3 doors along the road.

With regard to your tanks, you have found yourself in a bit of a pickle. If i've read correctly, you now have 2 tanks, neither of which is cycled, so you are effectively carrying out 2 fish-in cycles. The up-side is that both tanks are small so the water changes won't break your back.

I'd suggest that you should move the babies into a seperate container (so you will be in effect doing 3 fish-in cycles). I say this because, as Schmill points out, the waste produced by the babies is next to nothing, and a 50 water change every day should keep it under control no problem. The important thing with the babies is to make sure you don't accumulate any uneaten food or poop in the bottom, so don't use a substrate.

If you have the babies in with the adult platy, they are more at risk from ammonia poisoning, and the juveniles won't tolerate it well.

If you don't have any baby fish food, they should eat crushed flake food no problem.

Once you have moved the babies, its a case of, as Waterdrop points out, keeping both ammonia and nitrite below 0.25ppm in all tanks until the filter cycles. I'd suggest you should change 50% of the water in each tank every day as a starting point, and as you progress you can assess from the test results whether your water change regime needs adjusted, based on whether both levels are staying below 0.25.

Another option is to get some filter media from someone who has an established tank, but of course that depends if you know anyone. If not, it may be worth a look through the pinned topic on here which details members who are willing to donate filter media to people in your situation. There may be someone in your area. There is a link in my signature below.

Don't worry about the cloudy tank. It is most likely a bacterial bloom. There is a pinned topic explaining all about bacterial blooms and there is a link to it in my signature below.

Out of interest, what test kit do you use?

Keep us updated, and we should be able to help you through this without too many problems.

BTT

 

[Nifheim]

I got a master kit Sea test and then I have these test strips (too lazy to get up to read the brand name) that test everything but ammonia so i am using the master kit for ammonia now until the test strips are finished. I also have a diff. pH test since I had that handy from when I helped a friend out with establishing his RES turtle tank. But turtles are bit less finicky then fish.

Everything seems fine - I am keeping up on the water changes daily. The 10 Gal has a filter that was established so I am thinking that will not have the issues that my 5 gal did since it is half way broken in. So 10 g only gets a 10% change and the 5g gets the 30% change. I just eased the babies to their new home in the nursery in the 10 tank. It was hard to change the water in the bowl that I had the babies in since I had to use a turkey baster to suck the water out and to put water in for water changes (I sucked one baby in and noticed it and put him back quickly.) Anyway, acclimated the fish and so far so good - I need a gravel sucker/cleaner because the 5 gal has a ton of poo on the bottom along with uneaten food to the fish being overfed for two days (not my fault I promise) so that will be my next purchase.

Thank you for the tips! I am trying really hard to absorb everything that I am learning on this board. I have to say i belong to MANY forum's and this one is top notch.

Next question - after my tanks cycle how often do you check your levels?

 

[waterdrop]

Unfortunately, those paper test strips are worse than bad, they can be misleading, causing serious mistakes. If you want to feel you are still getting a small bit back from that purchase, perhaps you could monitor pH on "in-between" days with them and then do a liquid pH test on the weekends or something like that. Otherwise I'd toss them and chalk it up as a mistake. The cost of drops in a good liquid-reagent based test is nothing compared to its importance in the beginnings stages of tanks and the cost of other good equipment.

Secondly, I'd read the box carefully that's called "Sea Test" as that sounds possibly like a marine or salt-water kit (I'm not familiar with it) and marine kits do not work correctly for fresh water tropical use. Again, having the right tests that give reasonably accurate baseline info for your decisions is key.

Fantastic write-up there from BTT of course, you should be all set with that for the bulk of what this thread is about.

The tanks are small enough that you could probably get away with just an stretch of big clear flexible hose, especially in the fry tank, for bottom cleaning if you find there is some reason to delay your gravel-cleaner choice. In a clean glass-botton situation like that you can better go in with your thumb over the end of a hose to get past the fry and be sure you are just picking up debris when you release your thumb for short periods.

By the way, your impressions about bottom maintenance and water testing and all sorts of things may be influenced somewhat by your Dad's impressions of those things. I was of your Dad's era and can tell you that what BTT says is true, lore can build up an aura of legitimacy over time that may not be really based on science or accurate practical truth and that has happened a lot in our hobby. Ideally, those of us who new the old lore but have maybe been away from the exchange of new and changing ideas about it have to recognize and accept many changes. I've been trying out things from this forum that felt like "changes" and have found them to be a large and positive change in my practice of the hobby.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Nifheim]

Looks like your correct - I am reading the contents of the box (in a tiny pamphlet) and its says SALT WATER! <sigh> so back to tank changes at 50% thanks to having the wrong kit. I returning it and yelling at the salesman who said it was fine to use in tropical fish aquariums. Better give me a $50 credit otherwise my foot will be inserted into his bottom.

Test strips are tossed - using my liquid drop tester for the PH. I just need the proper master kit. I really can not wait for this cycle to be over with. I don't mind the water changes I just hate having to stress about killing fish.

 

[waterdrop]

Glad our detective work paid off! It would have been a mess figuring out what was going wrong from salt type readings.

With shop workers I generally try to take a really positive and friendly/joking approach but always coming from a set of control information in the back of my mind from sources like TFF. I think of the LFS as an important place to get quick access to tools and fish and I want as good a relationship as I can get regardless of whether they are good. Also, on rare occassions they might say something interesting and I want to be open to it. But 95% of the time they are nowhere near as informed as the type of level we see at TFF, so its important not to be misinformed/misled by them.

And yes, its hard being a "manual filter" for your fish for a month, but keep up the good work!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

If you are changing 50% each day on your tanks, the test kit will just be needed to know when the cycle is done and to ease your mind a bit. Chances are good that with your stocking levels the water will be fine using a 50% water change. When the hobby first started to recognize that ammonia build up was harmful in a new tank, lots of thumb rules developed about how long to change how much water to avoid trouble because the test kits were so expensive. 50% daily changes with a light bioload were never recommended because everything we knew told us that would be a problem for the fish. Nobody trusted dechlorinator in those days either, so we relied on letting water sit out for a day or two to remove chlorine. There was no chloramine in use so it did work out most of the time.