10G Tank Stocking

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Ok, well I will look into the aragonite. Could quite easily add some to existing set up depending on when I'd be able to actually get a larger tank...
and I will definitely get the blue rams out of there before I do that! Do you think they'd need to go in the 54L or would they be ok in the 45L? Bearing in mind that there is a dwarf gourami in the 54L...I suppose I could even put the DG in the 45L but then I'd have apistos and rams in the same tank which is not a good idea!
 
My nitrates are perfectly fine, all my tanks are planted for that reason and get 20% weekly water changes, they're consistently under 20 ppm (12.5 in the molly tank last time I checked) 
 
just having a little look for coral/aragaonite sand...don't seem to see any specifically designed for freshwater, they all say marine or hard freshwater setup. what's actually the difference?
 
chrisdenyer said:
Ok, well I will look into the aragonite. Could quite easily add some to existing set up depending on when I'd be able to actually get a larger tank...
and I will definitely get the blue rams out of there before I do that! Do you think they'd need to go in the 54L or would they be ok in the 45L? Bearing in mind that there is a dwarf gourami in the 54L...I suppose I could even put the DG in the 45L but then I'd have apistos and rams in the same tank which is not a good idea!
 
My nitrates are perfectly fine, all my tanks are planted for that reason and get 20% weekly water changes, they're consistently under 20 ppm (12.5 in the molly tank last time I checked) 
 
just having a little look for coral/aragaonite sand...don't seem to see any specifically designed for freshwater, they all say marine or hard freshwater setup. what's actually the difference?
 
The aragonite sand on its own or that for rift lake cichlids should be OK.  I cannot see from the CarribSea website just what is in these (I just love manufacturers that "hide" data!) but so long as they do not contain sodium chloride (common salt) they will work.  "Hard freshwater" is what you're after, if you found that somewhere, again make sure there is no sodium salt.
 
Aside from the substrate, you can also use a small bag of this aragonite gravel or sand in the filter, if it is a canister or one that will accommodate something like this.  As a temporary measure; I myself would use it as the substrate when you get a larger tank going.  And another option is a dry or liquid preparation that adds hard minerals.  Long-term these get very expensive, but short term are possible.  The beauty of the sand is that it will last literally for ever.  Must give out at some point I suppose, but it will be years.
 
I do not recommend mixing cichlid species in the same tank (African rift lake are the obvious exception).  Mixing gourami and cichlids can have the same result.  These fish are highly territorial, and while individual fish within a species can differ to some extent, some of them can be real nasty in protecting their space.  A pair of rams in the 45 litre (10 gallons) can work, provided they have bonded.
 
Byron.
 
Ok cool, I'll try and find that out and then order some! I'm not really sure of my long term plans for the molly tank - I know I probably won't replace them, but am attached to the ones I have! I guess I could always change the substrate back again in the future if I wanted to go back to a softer setup. I'm also a little hesitant about getting a much larger tank as I'm just renting a room at the mo - if I ever actually have a more permanent abode I will go as big as I can! I think I'll sort out the hardness in this tank, and see how it goes space-wise as they grow. The biggest tank I could get away with at the moment (financially and logistically) is a 112L, which is hardly any bigger really...but it would seem pointless to spend money on a new tank that was only slightly bigger! As of Monday they'll have it to themselves at least, apart from the F.Gardneri killis, which seem to be perfectly happy at the moment - I've just been consulting the internet and it looks like they are reasonably easy when it comes to hardness so I think they should be fine with a bit of an increase. Just a thought, adding the sand will raise the pH too won't it? But my pH is pretty much where I want it...do you know what sort of ratio there is between GH rise and pH rise?
 
As for the EBRs, they had been bickering a little, with one dominant, occasionally a short chase-off, though I've noticed them swimming together more the last couple of days (I'm not 100% sure they are actually a M/F pair, although I expect they'd be much more intolerant if they weren't...)  Probably best not to put them in that small a space till I'm sure... I had a theory, based on nothing in particular, that there would be a better chance with apistos and the DG than with the EBRs because they're more different in colour (the DG is a powder blue) but that might be completely irrelevant, I don't know! I suppose it's probably best not to risk it...I was talking to the guy at the lfs this morning about it and he suggested getting a female for the gourami to occupy him but that would mean two pairs of medium sized fish in a relatively small space. Plus it's not a very tall tank so there isn't really much separating top and bottom dwellers! I could always just make that one a gourami tank....I'm just on a bit of a dwarf cichlid mission! I should probably just be happy with the rams for now. Out of interest, would Mr Gourami be ok in the 45 do you think? If I decide that the rams need a bit more room?
 
Ok cool, I'll try and find that out and then order some! I'm not really sure of my long term plans for the molly tank - I know I probably won't replace them, but am attached to the ones I have! I guess I could always change the substrate back again in the future if I wanted to go back to a softer setup. I'm also a little hesitant about getting a much larger tank as I'm just renting a room at the mo - if I ever actually have a more permanent abode I will go as big as I can! I think I'll sort out the hardness in this tank, and see how it goes space-wise as they grow. The biggest tank I could get away with at the moment (financially and logistically) is a 112L, which is hardly any bigger really...but it would seem pointless to spend money on a new tank that was only slightly bigger! As of Monday they'll have it to themselves at least, apart from the F.Gardneri killis, which seem to be perfectly happy at the moment - I've just been consulting the internet and it looks like they are reasonably easy when it comes to hardness so I think they should be fine with a bit of an increase. Just a thought, adding the sand will raise the pH too won't it? But my pH is pretty much where I want it...do you know what sort of ratio there is between GH rise and pH rise?
 
 
I see nothing wrong with this plan for the mollies, on their own; you can change the substrate easily enough, and down the road whenever, yes, you would just remove the aragonite substrate then and use an inert sand.
 
Yes, the pH will rise, perhaps quite a bit.  Until you do something like this, it is hard to predict as there are several factors.  This is why I recommend only hard-water fish, as they are better able to deal with a higher pH.  It will not be fluctuating, it will rise and remain fairly stable, and that will not harm fish that are suited.  Fluctuating pH is the detrimental issue.  The aragonite does buffer as well as raise the GH.
 
As for the killifish, Fundulopanchax gardneri, I would not keep this in with the mollies.  This killi should have softer water than what mollies require.
 
As for the EBRs, they had been bickering a little, with one dominant, occasionally a short chase-off, though I've noticed them swimming together more the last couple of days (I'm not 100% sure they are actually a M/F pair, although I expect they'd be much more intolerant if they weren't...)  Probably best not to put them in that small a space till I'm sure... I had a theory, based on nothing in particular, that there would be a better chance with apistos and the DG than with the EBRs because they're more different in colour (the DG is a powder blue) but that might be completely irrelevant, I don't know! I suppose it's probably best not to risk it...I was talking to the guy at the lfs this morning about it and he suggested getting a female for the gourami to occupy him but that would mean two pairs of medium sized fish in a relatively small space. Plus it's not a very tall tank so there isn't really much separating top and bottom dwellers! I could always just make that one a gourami tank....I'm just on a bit of a dwarf cichlid mission! I should probably just be happy with the rams for now. Out of interest, would Mr Gourami be ok in the 45 do you think? If I decide that the rams need a bit more room?
 
 
Be very careful with dwarf gourami.  This species is still at risk for the iridovirus.  Neale Monks advises not to acquire the fish unless you know the breeder.  The virus is not treatable, and while some sources say it is restricted to this species, other reliable sources are of the view that it could spread.  The male you have may be fine, but any newly acquired fish might not.  And the fish can carry this virus and spread it without themselves showing symptoms.
 
Keep an eye on the rams.  Two males would be at each other continually.  Two females, hard to say.  A male/female may be what you are seeing, and they may or may not decide to bond.  I introduced a female Bolivian Ram in with my male, in a 5-foot 115g tank which one would have thought plenty of room (over a hundred various characins too).  They spawned four times, but their interaction was a bit odd throughout; one day the female was dead, probably killed by the male who had had enough.
 
Byron.
 
Ok, thanks. I'll see what I can do with the killies! Maybe I'll start with a bag of aragonite in the filter, and monitor the GH and pH. I could do with a GH rise of 5-10 dH, but my pH is 7.4/7.5 and I wouldn't want that to rise much above 8!
 
I'll definitely put the rams in the 54L then, I've only had them for a few weeks so time will tell...I'll keep an eye on them. The DG seems fine but maybe it's best to have him in the 45L on his own, that way he can't fight and/or infect anyone! If the rams don't look like they're going to bond I could always get rid of the gourami and put move the possibly-female into the 45L further on, although they aren't supposed to do so well on their own? Although they'd do better on their own than with an aggressive mate!
 
I do have a piddly little 28L tank as well which is currently housing a lone male guppy (all of his friends died and he wasn't looking happy in any other tank but this little thing!) From what I've read, it sounds like a pair of killis could potentially get on quite well in a tank that small, since it's no bigger than some of their natural puddle-sized muddy pools. Is that correct? If so I could try moving the guppy to the molly tank, since it will technically be better suited to him! I may end up with a few hybrids if I do that though....my former guppies definitely had a go!
 
I suppose having the DG by himself in the 45l could double as a QT....he seems fine at the mo, but then from what you said he could be the fish equivalent of typhoid Mary....I suppose not knowing where he's come from (I got him from a well-spoken-of stockist but didn't know enough at the time to ask) would make it difficult to re-home him with anyone else. 
 
Another thought re: the molly tank - I know it looks like I need to have them on their own for space, but do you think a group of C.habrosus would work in there? They're one of a few fish that I love the look of! It looks like they could handle the higher GH, providing I didn't let the pH get above 8, and they would be diminutive and out-of-the-way enough to not crowd the mollies? But if it needs to stay just mollies, then I will leave it at that...sigh...
 
saying that, I'm reading that they prefer a higher temperature so maybe they'd be better in with the rams
 
The present dwarf gourami may be fine (disease-wise).  My warning was more for any newly-acquired fish--know their source or in my view do not risk it.
 
The guppy and mollies are compatible, thinking water parameters.  As for cross-breeding, one would think this possible when the species are in the same genus and thus closely related.  But there is thinking today that these two fish are not as closely related and should be in different genera or at least a subgenus.  Of the 40 currently-described species in Poecilia, one is the guppy, two are Endlers, and the rest are all distinct mollies.  It is one of the latter, specifically Poecilia vivipara, that is the type species (the species that gives the characteristics that define the fish in the genus).  Poeser et al (2003, 2005) and Schories et al (2009) have gone so far as to propose that the guppy and Endler species be placed in a subgenus Acanthophacelus and further study may elevate this to distinct genus, or not.
 
As for the Corydoras habrosus, definitely do not put these in hard water if it can be avoided.  I will explain with a digression (again, lol).
 
I tend to view fish species in one of two groups--those preferring softer water and those preferring harder water; the former tend to be on the acidic side (below 7.0) with respect to pH, and the latter on the basic side (above 7.0).  This is a rather arbitrary split, but it works.  Obviously there are species that can overlap, but I always look at the natural habitat of a species and feel that it will, all else being equal, tend to be healthier and "happier" if it is maintained according to its habitat.  Many species occur in quite specific habitats that have little if indeed any variance in GH, pH and temperature throughout their lives.  Other species that usually are more widespread geographically have sometimes quite variable parameters depending upon the geographic area of their natural distribution range.  The degree to which a species can adjust or be acclimated to different parameters is generally very narrow.  The longevity (lifespan) of the species is usually relative to the environmental conditions including parameters; this is because the environmental conditions, here water parameters, are crucial in the operation of the fish's homeostasis, its internal physiological functioning.  This homeostasis only operates "normally" when the fish is in an environment for which it is designed by nature through evolution; as soon as it is forced into different parameters, it has to work harder just to maintain these basic processes that are essential to its life.  And no one can argue biologically with the premise that a given species will tend to be less stressed when maintained within the parameters for which it has evolved over thousands of years.
 
Corydoras habrosus is a delicate species.  Its natural range is in certain rivers of the Rio Orinoco drainage in Venezuela [these are listed in Planet Catfish and elsewhere].  The GH is next to zero, and the pH is acidic to close to neutral, generally speaking.  This is certainly not a species compatible with the parameters required by mollies.  It also needs coolish temperatures, no higher than around 75F/24C, preferably a bit lower.
 
Last fornow, on the mollies...a pH above 8 will not harm them, so provided they are on their own, if the pH should rise when the GH increases, as it obviously will, this is fine.  But not for any of the other fish mentioned so far (except the guppy obviously).
 
Byron.
 
Ok, never mind about the C.habrosus then! It was fishlore.com that I was looking at for their parameters :\ basically the opposite of planet catfish! Looking at that site, the ram tank would definitely be pushing it temp. wise, maybe if I can get the gourami tank a little softer...hmm C.pygmaeus looks to be very slightly more tolerant... I might consult my lfs, they do happen to be a catfish specialist!
Anyway... would you say definitely no room for any discrete molly tankmates, if there are any hard enough? If there is anything that isn't another livebearer!
 
chrisdenyer said:
Ok, never mind about the C.habrosus then! It was fishlore.com that I was looking at for their parameters :\ basically the opposite of planet catfish! Looking at that site, the ram tank would definitely be pushing it temp. wise, maybe if I can get the gourami tank a little softer...hmm C.pygmaeus looks to be very slightly more tolerant... I might consult my lfs, they do happen to be a catfish specialist!
Anyway... would you say definitely no room for any discrete molly tankmates, if there are any hard enough? If there is anything that isn't another livebearer!
 
I personally would leave the tank with the five mollies.  Other livebearers would work if space permitted, but in my opinion it doesn't here.  There might be some other moderately-hard water fish but again I don't think there is space.  Given the chance, the mollies will grow, presumably.
 
Corydoras pygmaeus like C. habrosus is a delicate little cory, and shares the same parameters.  I have this species on its own in my 10g, and they are spawning regularly.  I just let them do their thing.  I rarely see the eggs, they stick them where they are not that visible to me, but every so often a tiny black spec on the sand will skitter around, and I have juveniles of all sizes growing up together.  The naturally-occurring infusoria (from the plants and wood, plus I add dry oak leaves periodically) means that several can easily survive.
 
I had a look at fishlore profile and it has some errors.  Now I'm going to digress a tad on this...these days, anyone can set up a web site and there is no real check on the data.  I use sites where I either know who runs them or I know the ichthyoligists/biologists who contribute the data (by reputation, sometimes personally), and it is not surprising that rarely indeed do I find differences.  PC is owned by Julian Dingwall, a very knowledgeable catfish enthusiast, and Ian Fuller (a cory authority) contributes.  I would trust their data; I have found a few taxonomical differences/errors but so far not much more.  I've no idea who is behind fishlore, but from my very brief look around, I would question things.
 
The other thing about ranges for a fish species, be it GH, pH or temperature, is that some sites (the less scientifically-knowledgeable, not meaning to be unkind) may feel that narrowing data too much may discourage aquarists from considering a species.  While this is understandable, I would hope that most of us consider the welfare of the fish over anything else.  The relationship of a fish to its environment is unique in the vertebrate world; the water in which a fish lives is absolutely crucial to the fish's metabolism and physiological functions.  There are some close comparables, primarily among the amphibians and reptiles (being cold blooded has a lot to do with this), but fish are way out in front in being completely dependant on their environment for every aspect of their life, minute by minute.
 
Byron.
 
Cool, thanks - I personally don't have any way of telling who has the credentials so I'll trust you on that one! I suppose most people's arguments go along the lines of the whole being-bred-in-captivity-so-adapted-to-hard-water angle, however credible or not that is! I expect it's the case of yes, they might tolerate it but they'd be much happier and longer lived in a more natural environment. Although theoretically, over time a species bred in captivity would evolve to suit the local water, it's probably a more selective process than wild selection via predation! Especially considering how hard it is to get most of them breeding in non-perfect conditions in the first place! But then that raises a whole other ethical issue of them eventually being an entirely un-natural sub-species/variant existing solely for human entertainment, like the fancy goldfish.... Mind you, most fish seem to pretty much need natural conditions to successfully breed so they probably wouldn't change that much. I might just stop thinking now....
 
I'll leave the mollies as they are then (after a brief look I couldn't find anything that would work anyway) I have put that guppy in there so I could move the killies out, he seems happier than the last time he was in there! So that will definitely be it. It's impossible to say how much the mollies will grow, although my original adult seems to have stopped at 3 inches, and one of the juvies seems to have stopped at an inch and a half! She was the runt of the litter...or whatever you'd call a group of livebearer fry that popped out on the same day...then again I have another who will be a monster if she keeps growing at the rate she's going!
 
The killies seem pretty content in the 28L. I've got it on my bedside table, it's quite nice to wake up to those little happy faces! I do have a particular fondness for the fish which nature has given a permanent goofy smile ;-)
 
I'd love some microrasbora in the ram/gourami tanks but I believe they are definitely-soft water fish. Alas...I will thoroughly research any potential tankmates for the gourami and rams! I'll consult the fish people when I take in the tigers,rummys and cherries today. As fish shops go, they seem to be pretty honest and knowledgable. They have a fish databank on their website with info and parameters for all species which matches what you've said about the fish discussed here. 
 
54L re-scaped ready for the rams, just getting the temp. right before introducing them. Still a bit cloudy from the re-planting substrate hurricane! Not sure if I've gone a teensy bit overboard with the vegetation...
 
IMG_3477.jpg
 
 
45L re-scaped for the DG
 
IMG_3475.jpg
 
I managed to break the hood. Clever.... temporary sheet of perspex standing in while I sort out a new one! 
 
Those both look very nice.
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   On tankmates for the gourami, the medium rasbora work well.  Wild caught would prefer softer water, but yours at 10 dGH is not that bad and the Harlequin Rasbora (Trigonostigma heteromorpha) is one to consider.  I know...this is a small tank, but these fish are not active swimmers and a group of 6-7 is what I would suggest.
 
As for the ram tank...some corys?  The commercially raised species (C. aeneus, C. paleatus, C. sterbai) should fare OK with GH, but the temp is another factor and C. sterbai would be best here.  However, if raising fry from the rams is wanted, forget corys or any other catfish as being nocturnal these easily get the eggs (or the fry).
 
Byron.
 
thanks for the suggestions
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Is the harlequin the only rasbora that would do well in 10dH? I do really like the small galaxy, dwarf and chili rasboras... although I don't think many of those micro-rasbora are actually rasbora! I know the galaxy is actually the celestial pearl danio...and have a feeling they can be very delicate. Mind you, I'm not sure how well my particularly grumpy gourami would tolerate anyone swimming around with him! 
 
As for the ram tank...I do love the idea of corys, I'd assumed I wouldn't have space for a large enough group - how many do you think I'd get away with? I'd kind of assumed that I'd go for a shoal of something small in there, but if corys are definitely an option that may have to be done! Those Sterbai look awesome...I don't know how common they are, but then the lfs I was talking about has a LOT of corys! I'm not fussed if they eat ram eggs, in fact that would probably be quite useful - trying to re-home superfluous fish is rather stressful! It could be quite nice having mostly bottom dwelling fish in the 54 since it's on my floor, which means unless I'm lying on the carpet I can't really see anyone at the surface
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I can't believe I managed to break the hood for the 45...and they're so ridiculously expensive! For a piece of moulded plastic! I don't need the light - I use LED strip lights and I have a fancy timer which gradually fades them on and off over an hour and a half - and with a few cable splitters and extensions I'm running the lighting for four tanks off of one timer unit! 
 
thanks for the suggestions 
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 Is the harlequin the only rasbora that would do well in 10dH? I do really like the small galaxy, dwarf and chili rasboras... although I don't think many of those micro-rasbora are actually rasbora! I know the galaxy is actually the celestial pearl danio...and have a feeling they can be very delicate. Mind you, I'm not sure how well my particularly grumpy gourami would tolerate anyone swimming around with him!
 
 
I usually suggest the Harlequin because they are rather attractive, and nice colour, for quiet tanks.  But there are other species one sees from time to time, though not perhaps as colourful.
 
The dwarf and chili rasboras are in the genus Boraras, and these are very delicate fishes that will be wild caught, thus requiring soft water.  A dwarf gourami might see these as food.  The Galaxy Rasbora or Celestial Pearl Danio, Danio margaritatus, also needs soft water though it can tolerate a basic pH.  I would be afraid to put these in with a dwarf gourami, same reason.  All of these "miniatures" seem to be at their best in small tanks, but on their own or sometimes with certain other fish.
 
All of these are now classified in the Danioninae subfamily of the family Cyprinidae, which also includes the "rasboras" like the Harlequin.  And to further confuse, the "danios" like the Zebra are in this subfamily too.  Tang et al. (2010) recognized three distinct lineages (called tribes) within Danioninae, two of which for our purposes are Danionini (containing the danios) and Rasborini (genera Rasbora, Boraras and Trigonostigma).  The three tribes are monophyletic, meaning they hold the last common ancestor and all descendants respectively.
 
As for the ram tank...I do love the idea of corys, I'd assumed I wouldn't have space for a large enough group - how many do you think I'd get away with? I'd kind of assumed that I'd go for a shoal of something small in there, but if corys are definitely an option that may have to be done! Those Sterbai look awesome...I don't know how common they are, but then the lfs I was talking about has a LOT of corys! I'm not fussed if they eat ram eggs, in fact that would probably be quite useful - trying to re-home superfluous fish is rather stressful!
 
 
Corys should be in a group of minimum five, and here I would suggest 6-7 will be fine.  You have live plants (very nice too), and will I'm sure be regular with water changes.
 
Generally, few if any fry will survive when egg layers are the fish (as opposed to livebearers, very different story).  I see the odd fry, usually rescued from the canister filter during periodic cleaning.  It is the eggs that tend to get eaten, and fish are very adept at finding them.  Cichlids of course have the protection of parents that guard the eggs and fry, but this usually only works during the daylight.  But even so, I once witnessed my female Common Ram shepherding her fry and suddenly a cory found them; within seconds they were all gone, the ram unable to defend them from two corys.
 
Byron.
 
Ok thanks! I thought that might be the case with the little fish...harlequins are pretty cool although I'd still worry about them with the temperament of my gourami! He's been in both other tanks and hassled everyone but the rummys. I somehow doubt there are any suitable tetras though!
 
Glad you like the look of the tank, I've always gone for live plants, apart from the benefits for water quality they just look so much better, and they're cheaper than good quality fake ones! I don't know much about them, I've always just picked what I think will look best and come down to a handful of successful species through trial and error - I believe it's amazon swords that I picked for the 54? Not sure what the smaller ones are! 
 
I'll go for 6-7 sterbas then
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It sounds like a lot of fish for the 54, maybe because of the whole molly tank space problem I'd got it into my head that it would be a similar fish-to-volume ratio with the smaller tanks - it seems mad that there will be more fish in the 54 than the 90, but I suppose the corys aren't nearly as active - you seem to be a bit of a fish guru anyway so I'll trust you on that! I hope you know when I question your advice is not that I don't agree with it, I just like to know the rationale behind everything! I may go for either 5 or 7 just because I have an aversion to even numbers (apart from pairs)
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Considering the tank did have 7 tiger barbs and the gourami and had stable parameters I don't think maintaining should be a problem - just a thought - depending on when I get the corys I may have lost a large part of my nitrifying bacteria! Do you think it's worth trying to maintain the levels I had (sufficient for a fully stocked tank) by shoving the same amount of food in as I would have done feeding all the tigers/gourami? Providing the rams didn't try to eat it all! Or just introduce a few corys at a time?
 

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