elephantnose3334
Fishaholic
So, what are some animals are smarter than dogs and primates? Let's just hope it's either fish, pigs or chickens.
What animals are more intelligent than dogs and primates?
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There is a lot of research going on with animal intelligence. The big block is we see ourselves as the definition of intelligence, and we measure other animals in terms of what our type of primate needed to do. If we can step back and understand other types of intelligence, we may get somewhere in understanding what's out there.
I suspect we don't know what intelligence is.
I still hear people who say fish don't feel pain, even though we can see complex nervous systems if we look closely. We like to believe things that make us feel happy about what we do, even if there is no evidence to back those beliefs up. Experiments have shown some species of fish to recognize themselves in the mirror, or to do simple arithmetic. And that's with very little research done so far. Fish aren't going to write books, but they don't need to.
My dog has a better brain for smelling things than I do. That much I know. I guess sense of smell is a type of intelligence, as is communication, touch, visual processing, etc. A dog wouldn't like fish forums because we communicate with culture and not with smells.
I suspect we don't know what intelligence is.
I still hear people who say fish don't feel pain, even though we can see complex nervous systems if we look closely. We like to believe things that make us feel happy about what we do, even if there is no evidence to back those beliefs up. Experiments have shown some species of fish to recognize themselves in the mirror, or to do simple arithmetic. And that's with very little research done so far. Fish aren't going to write books, but they don't need to.
My dog has a better brain for smelling things than I do. That much I know. I guess sense of smell is a type of intelligence, as is communication, touch, visual processing, etc. A dog wouldn't like fish forums because we communicate with culture and not with smells.
Only this part of your reply already says it all... I totally agree... And yes, I truly believe that we still haven't figured it out which animal is the most intelligent creature there is. There are too many living creatures to test them all on their intelligence.
Intelligence isn't about reading a book or making a rocket. It's about learning about your environment and being able to successfully live in it. The ABC tv station recently had a series called First Weapons. It was about Aboriginal weapons and they had aerodynamics, lift, velocity and everything else worked out. White man came to Australia several hundred years ago and considered the Aboriginals stupid primitives and that continued until just recently. Some people still think of them that way. But they had invented the wing for flying hundreds, probably even thousands of years before white man did. They didn't know the exact science behind it but they sure as heck made aerodynamic boomerangs that gained height and could even return.
There are some dogs out there that are more intelligent than most humans. My dogs knew the difference between a cat in the bush, on the park and on someone's private property. They weren't allowed on private property but anything else was fair game. They learnt how to open doors, track and find people, and even impersonated me driving my car. That was funny watching a papillon standing on my driver's seat with her paws on the steering wheel trying to look out the windscreen. If you ever see a papillon you will understand why, they are tiny dogs. My kelpie cross did the same thing except she used 1 paw on top of the steering wheel and the other paw on the bottom of it. They did this when I was in the shop and people outside were watching them. Monkey see, monkey do.
Predatory animals are smarter than prey animals because they have to learn strategy and co-ordination. Prey animals normally just run like hell.
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Birds are smart, especially those that are migratory. They have to navigate by the sun, stars, moon and the Earth's magnetic field. Humans struggle with most of that. Birds also learn how to do things like open rubbish bins to get food, follow harvesters on farms when farmers are cutting wheat or other grains, they can find water by following storm clouds, and they even learn to trust certain people and animals.
There were two groups of magpies in my neighbourhood. One family lived in a tree on the park opposite my house. The other family lived about 1 kilometer up the road on a side street. A number of people (including myself) on my street would feed the family that lived opposite my house. These birds were so comfortable around people they wouldn't normally swoop people when they were breeding. The other family of magpies weren't fed by anyone and would swoop anything that moved during the breeding season.
The birds that lived opposite my house would go door to door singing for breakfast, lunch or dinner. They visited certain houses where they got fed and skipped the houses that didn't feed them. When they got to my house they would sing. If I didn't answer them straight away they would come up to the front door and sing louder. If I still didn't answer, they would knock on the security screen door. They would peck at the metal frame of the security screen until someone answered.
When I saw them (or heard them) on my front lawn, I would say hang on, and then I got them some food. When they heard me say hang on, they stopped singing and moved back from the door and waited on the lawn for me to throw some dry cat biscuits out for them.
This group of birds also followed people around the dog park in the afternoon. One of the locals who fed them (a guy called Ron) used to carry dog treats in his pocket for the dogs in the local dog group. But the magpies also used to get fed by him and he would be seen walking around the park with dogs and magpies following him waiting for food.
The same group of birds actually swooped a couple of kids that were throwing sticks and rocks at them. I saw it and told the kids not to chuck things at the birds. They said the birds were attacking them. I asked if the birds swooped them before they threw stuff at them. The kids replied no, they saw the birds and started chucking things at them. I said they swooped you because you threw things at them. While I was talking to these kids, the magpies that had been swooping them stood on the grass watching. I said it's over, you aren't to chuck anything else at these birds. They said but the birds will attack us. I said no they won't. I said just put the rocks and sticks down and walk away. They did and the birds left and went back to their tree.
-------------------
Some fish are smart.
Some oceanic fishes, including sharks travel long distances and need to be able to navigate across open oceans. Whales and dolphins are mammals but do this as well.
I have seen two groups of fish round up a school of smaller fish and create a wall with their bodies so the smaller food fish can't get away. Then some of the group members went in to feed while the others prevented the food from escaping. After a moment they swapped and the fish making up the wall went in to feed while the first group filled in the wall.
I saw this with a marine fish called a tailor, which is a predatory fish. They had a huge group of bait fish trapped in a bay in Geraldton and most of the group set up a wall while some fed. I threw a line in with a lure on but the fish wouldn't touch it, instead preferring the live bait. The tailor could differentiate between a live fish and a lure that resembled the bait fish. The tailor continued feeding like this for about an hour before they broke off the attack and left the area.
The other time I saw this was when we had a group of wild caught Melanotaenia boesemani that were about 2 inches long. They were put into a 6 ft tank with some 1 inch long cardinal tetras because we didn't have anywhere else for them. We figured they would be ok because the cardinals were big and the M. boesemani were smallish. A coule of days after we got the M. boesemani, a customer said the fish were eating each other. We went into the fish room and the M. boesemani had the cardinals trapped in a corner. There was a wall of rainbowfish stopping any of the tetras getting away, and a smaller group of rainbows that went in to kill and eat the cardinals. It was really fascinating to watch but the boss said SEPARATE THEM NOW.
There are some dogs out there that are more intelligent than most humans. My dogs knew the difference between a cat in the bush, on the park and on someone's private property. They weren't allowed on private property but anything else was fair game. They learnt how to open doors, track and find people, and even impersonated me driving my car. That was funny watching a papillon standing on my driver's seat with her paws on the steering wheel trying to look out the windscreen. If you ever see a papillon you will understand why, they are tiny dogs. My kelpie cross did the same thing except she used 1 paw on top of the steering wheel and the other paw on the bottom of it. They did this when I was in the shop and people outside were watching them. Monkey see, monkey do.
Predatory animals are smarter than prey animals because they have to learn strategy and co-ordination. Prey animals normally just run like hell.
-------------------
Birds are smart, especially those that are migratory. They have to navigate by the sun, stars, moon and the Earth's magnetic field. Humans struggle with most of that. Birds also learn how to do things like open rubbish bins to get food, follow harvesters on farms when farmers are cutting wheat or other grains, they can find water by following storm clouds, and they even learn to trust certain people and animals.
There were two groups of magpies in my neighbourhood. One family lived in a tree on the park opposite my house. The other family lived about 1 kilometer up the road on a side street. A number of people (including myself) on my street would feed the family that lived opposite my house. These birds were so comfortable around people they wouldn't normally swoop people when they were breeding. The other family of magpies weren't fed by anyone and would swoop anything that moved during the breeding season.
The birds that lived opposite my house would go door to door singing for breakfast, lunch or dinner. They visited certain houses where they got fed and skipped the houses that didn't feed them. When they got to my house they would sing. If I didn't answer them straight away they would come up to the front door and sing louder. If I still didn't answer, they would knock on the security screen door. They would peck at the metal frame of the security screen until someone answered.
When I saw them (or heard them) on my front lawn, I would say hang on, and then I got them some food. When they heard me say hang on, they stopped singing and moved back from the door and waited on the lawn for me to throw some dry cat biscuits out for them.
This group of birds also followed people around the dog park in the afternoon. One of the locals who fed them (a guy called Ron) used to carry dog treats in his pocket for the dogs in the local dog group. But the magpies also used to get fed by him and he would be seen walking around the park with dogs and magpies following him waiting for food.
The same group of birds actually swooped a couple of kids that were throwing sticks and rocks at them. I saw it and told the kids not to chuck things at the birds. They said the birds were attacking them. I asked if the birds swooped them before they threw stuff at them. The kids replied no, they saw the birds and started chucking things at them. I said they swooped you because you threw things at them. While I was talking to these kids, the magpies that had been swooping them stood on the grass watching. I said it's over, you aren't to chuck anything else at these birds. They said but the birds will attack us. I said no they won't. I said just put the rocks and sticks down and walk away. They did and the birds left and went back to their tree.
-------------------
Some fish are smart.
Some oceanic fishes, including sharks travel long distances and need to be able to navigate across open oceans. Whales and dolphins are mammals but do this as well.
I have seen two groups of fish round up a school of smaller fish and create a wall with their bodies so the smaller food fish can't get away. Then some of the group members went in to feed while the others prevented the food from escaping. After a moment they swapped and the fish making up the wall went in to feed while the first group filled in the wall.
I saw this with a marine fish called a tailor, which is a predatory fish. They had a huge group of bait fish trapped in a bay in Geraldton and most of the group set up a wall while some fed. I threw a line in with a lure on but the fish wouldn't touch it, instead preferring the live bait. The tailor could differentiate between a live fish and a lure that resembled the bait fish. The tailor continued feeding like this for about an hour before they broke off the attack and left the area.
The other time I saw this was when we had a group of wild caught Melanotaenia boesemani that were about 2 inches long. They were put into a 6 ft tank with some 1 inch long cardinal tetras because we didn't have anywhere else for them. We figured they would be ok because the cardinals were big and the M. boesemani were smallish. A coule of days after we got the M. boesemani, a customer said the fish were eating each other. We went into the fish room and the M. boesemani had the cardinals trapped in a corner. There was a wall of rainbowfish stopping any of the tetras getting away, and a smaller group of rainbows that went in to kill and eat the cardinals. It was really fascinating to watch but the boss said SEPARATE THEM NOW.
I think the fish-pain thing, is really promoted by people who like to catch fish with a hook... of course it hurts... why wouldn't it, with a full & functioning nervous system... hmmm... catch & release... is just torcher, if you're catching them with a hook, you should be required to eat them... & we think we are the intelligent species
OP
OP
elephantnose3334
Fishaholic
I haven't watched First Weapons yet but this is interesting.Intelligence isn't about reading a book or making a rocket. It's about learning about your environment and being able to successfully live in it. The ABC tv station recently had a series called First Weapons. It was about Aboriginal weapons and they had aerodynamics, lift, velocity and everything else worked out. White man came to Australia several hundred years ago and considered the Aboriginals stupid primitives and that continued until just recently. Some people still think of them that way. But they had invented the wing for flying hundreds, probably even thousands of years before white man did. They didn't know the exact science behind it but they sure as heck made aerodynamic boomerangs that gained height and could even return.
There are some dogs out there that are more intelligent than most humans. My dogs knew the difference between a cat in the bush, on the park and on someone's private property. They weren't allowed on private property but anything else was fair game. They learnt how to open doors, track and find people, and even impersonated me driving my car. That was funny watching a papillon standing on my driver's seat with her paws on the steering wheel trying to look out the windscreen. If you ever see a papillon you will understand why, they are tiny dogs. My kelpie cross did the same thing except she used 1 paw on top of the steering wheel and the other paw on the bottom of it. They did this when I was in the shop and people outside were watching them. Monkey see, monkey do.
Predatory animals are smarter than prey animals because they have to learn strategy and co-ordination. Prey animals normally just run like hell.
-------------------
Birds are smart, especially those that are migratory. They have to navigate by the sun, stars, moon and the Earth's magnetic field. Humans struggle with most of that. Birds also learn how to do things like open rubbish bins to get food, follow harvesters on farms when farmers are cutting wheat or other grains, they can find water by following storm clouds, and they even learn to trust certain people and animals.
There were two groups of magpies in my neighbourhood. One family lived in a tree on the park opposite my house. The other family lived about 1 kilometer up the road on a side street. A number of people (including myself) on my street would feed the family that lived opposite my house. These birds were so comfortable around people they wouldn't normally swoop people when they were breeding. The other family of magpies weren't fed by anyone and would swoop anything that moved during the breeding season.
The birds that lived opposite my house would go door to door singing for breakfast, lunch or dinner. They visited certain houses where they got fed and skipped the houses that didn't feed them. When they got to my house they would sing. If I didn't answer them straight away they would come up to the front door and sing louder. If I still didn't answer, they would knock on the security screen door. They would peck at the metal frame of the security screen until someone answered.
When I saw them (or heard them) on my front lawn, I would say hang on, and then I got them some food. When they heard me say hang on, they stopped singing and moved back from the door and waited on the lawn for me to throw some dry cat biscuits out for them.
This group of birds also followed people around the dog park in the afternoon. One of the locals who fed them (a guy called Ron) used to carry dog treats in his pocket for the dogs in the local dog group. But the magpies also used to get fed by him and he would be seen walking around the park with dogs and magpies following him waiting for food.
The same group of birds actually swooped a couple of kids that were throwing sticks and rocks at them. I saw it and told the kids not to chuck things at the birds. They said the birds were attacking them. I asked if the birds swooped them before they threw stuff at them. The kids replied no, they saw the birds and started chucking things at them. I said they swooped you because you threw things at them. While I was talking to these kids, the magpies that had been swooping them stood on the grass watching. I said it's over, you aren't to chuck anything else at these birds. They said but the birds will attack us. I said no they won't. I said just put the rocks and sticks down and walk away. They did and the birds left and went back to their tree.
-------------------
Some fish are smart.
Some oceanic fishes, including sharks travel long distances and need to be able to navigate across open oceans. Whales and dolphins are mammals but do this as well.
I have seen two groups of fish round up a school of smaller fish and create a wall with their bodies so the smaller food fish can't get away. Then some of the group members went in to feed while the others prevented the food from escaping. After a moment they swapped and the fish making up the wall went in to feed while the first group filled in the wall.
I saw this with a marine fish called a tailor, which is a predatory fish. They had a huge group of bait fish trapped in a bay in Geraldton and most of the group set up a wall while some fed. I threw a line in with a lure on but the fish wouldn't touch it, instead preferring the live bait. The tailor could differentiate between a live fish and a lure that resembled the bait fish. The tailor continued feeding like this for about an hour before they broke off the attack and left the area.
The other time I saw this was when we had a group of wild caught Melanotaenia boesemani that were about 2 inches long. They were put into a 6 ft tank with some 1 inch long cardinal tetras because we didn't have anywhere else for them. We figured they would be ok because the cardinals were big and the M. boesemani were smallish. A coule of days after we got the M. boesemani, a customer said the fish were eating each other. We went into the fish room and the M. boesemani had the cardinals trapped in a corner. There was a wall of rainbowfish stopping any of the tetras getting away, and a smaller group of rainbows that went in to kill and eat the cardinals. It was really fascinating to watch but the boss said SEPARATE THEM NOW.
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Personally I think that most, if not all, animals are more intelligent than humans as we are the only ones that seem to want to destroy the planet.
As to more intelligent than dogs or primates (surprised cats were not included) the potential is large. The problem, as has been said, is that we tend to measure intelligence based on our own concepts when we really have no clue as to what intelligence really is. Since humans are primates, and we seem to believe that we are the most intelligent thing around,.... Still I will put out a short list of possibilities.
Some birds even though research on this is still young.
Probably many, if not all, oceanic mammals.
It isn't always all about the size of the brain. I think it more important how the brain is used. If the question were to be the least intelligent I'd seriously be tempted to list humans. Ya, while not extreme, I am a bit of a tree huger.
Spock from the movie 'The Voyage Home'; Star Trek 4.
"There are other species on earth. Only human arrogance would assume the signal must be meant for mankind."
As to more intelligent than dogs or primates (surprised cats were not included) the potential is large. The problem, as has been said, is that we tend to measure intelligence based on our own concepts when we really have no clue as to what intelligence really is. Since humans are primates, and we seem to believe that we are the most intelligent thing around,.... Still I will put out a short list of possibilities.
Some birds even though research on this is still young.
Probably many, if not all, oceanic mammals.
It isn't always all about the size of the brain. I think it more important how the brain is used. If the question were to be the least intelligent I'd seriously be tempted to list humans. Ya, while not extreme, I am a bit of a tree huger.
Spock from the movie 'The Voyage Home'; Star Trek 4.
"There are other species on earth. Only human arrogance would assume the signal must be meant for mankind."
Herpin Man
Fish Crazy
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If organization and teamwork are measures of intelligence, humans would rank near the bottom. Ants and bees would rank near the top.
Orcas are very smart. They are this close to having a language. They have amazing hunting strategies for different prey.
A mathematical theorem, sophisticated architecture, written language, complex musical composition, opera, theatre, philosophy, poetry if not signs of intelligence certainly make us unique creatures On planet earth.
Ravens, octopi, and marine mammals are all smarter than dogs I think. I doubt if they are smarter than primates though.
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I understand what you say but that does not make us totally unique. For instance let's take written language... why does it have to be written? In early times for humans there was very little written language; go back a bit further and there was no written language at all. History was taught via vocal stories. Go back further and and there are cave etchings. Does this qualify as a written language?
Now let's look at a bee hive. Drones go out looking for pollen sources. If a drone finds a good source it will return to the hive and do a dance combined with sound produced in different frequencies of their wing flapping to express a map to the new source. Could this not be considered a language? I can't really see how it is not a language as it expresses information which I would tend to consider the basic purpose for language.
Now let's take some species of whales... Does anyone really doubt that a hump back's 'whale song' is a form of communication?
Ya, I'm being a little bit of a devil's advocate with this but who are we to determine what is language?
What bothers me is that we tend to rate intelligence strictly by our own standards and tend to ignore signs that may point toward intelligence in other animals.
This just came in and entered my feeble mind. If I were to be forced to describe intelligence I think that it would be the ability to come up with an original concept. There are MANY animals that do this as to hunting methods. Not a main interest of mine but from some things I've read predators tend to show more signs of intelligence than prey. Put a twelve pack of timber wolves that have been established as a pack in the savanna and they will change their hunting methods to probably be able to take down a lion. Is this not a case where some sort of language would be needed?
To me the idea of intelligence is subjective as we really don't even really know what the word means. I say this with tongue in cheek but it would not surprise me if an alien species arrived from space and we would consider them to be without intelligence just due to the fact that they didn't communicate in our language.
It must also be remembered that, regardless of what we think of ourselves, we are just another form of animal on this planet. People don't like to hear it but we are just another form of animal
We became the dominate on this planet for no other than the fact that we came up with better ways to kill.
I hear what you’re saying. However, imagine a series of neutron bombs wiped out all life forms on earth and then extra terrestrials landed on the planet. They see and marvel over termite mounds, beaver huts and dams, bird nests, bee hives etc. Then they come upon New York City. Who will they assume was the dominant and most intelligent specie. Better ways to kill is a reflection of our superior intelligence coupled with a greater capacity for free will.
There's no denying we're smart, but what if those extra terrestrials considered the source of the neutron bombs, climate change, plastic pollution and our trying to run a system that must infinitely expand on a planet with finite resources? They could conclude we're idiots, one and all. We look a bit like a viral life form, and one that kills its host.
The extra terrestrials could drop by after we've gone extinct and the planet had rebounded from some of our damage, and still find a lot of intelligence around them to respect.
Culture is an offshoot of intelligence, and we have a lot of cultures to expand our abilities. There's no denying human ingenuity in the original question. We are animals running with instinct like all others, but we do escape the box occasionally.
The extra terrestrials could drop by after we've gone extinct and the planet had rebounded from some of our damage, and still find a lot of intelligence around them to respect.
Culture is an offshoot of intelligence, and we have a lot of cultures to expand our abilities. There's no denying human ingenuity in the original question. We are animals running with instinct like all others, but we do escape the box occasionally.
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