Tank Going Downhill Fast After 4+ Years

[bodge99]

Hello,

A friend of a friend had what appears to be a similar problem to this recently. He was losing fish in a similar way as described above.
Meds seemed to be of little help. I suggested that he tried the following which I saw recommended on a forum a few years ago... It **seems** to have helped... only time will tell. Six weeks later... no further deaths!

I call this the "double dip".

Prepare and fill a suitable container ( I lent him a 40 litre plastic bin - about £6 from Asda, I think.). I've got a few of these that are kept specifically for fish use only.

Add dechlorinator and temperature match to your tank as closely as possible. Transfer your filter and heater and leave a short while for it to stabilise. Now move your fish stock over. Do this in the same way as if you were introducing new fish...

Now drain your tank. Remove as much water as is reasonably practical.

Refill with cold tap water - no dechlorinator. Leave for 30 minutes or so and remove the water again.

Refill a second time with cold water and leave for another 30 minutes.

Now drain down and refill with warm water and dechlorinate as required.

Replace the filter and heater and again leave it a short while to stabilise.

Return your stock to the tank in the same way as before.

The idea of all of this is this: This time you are using the chlorine in tap water to your advantage.. If these problems are caused by some sort of bacteria etc. then the chlorine may help eradicate them.

Just a suggestion that hopefully might help.

Bodge99.

 

[emilythestrange]

Some fish are more succeptible to certain diseases than others. Some may have been sick to the point of no return. How many days have you treated already?

About 4 or 5 now, not enough just yet

Just thought id add, maybe try buying a couple from a diff shop. It could be a bad batch.

I have tried three different places, sometimes the fish from P@H last yeaars (ie cory tetras) but livebearers don't

Now drain down and refill with warm water and dechlorinate as required.

Replace the filter and heater and again leave it a short while to stabilise.

Return your stock to the tank in the same way as before.

The idea of all of this is this: This time you are using the chlorine in tap water to your advantage.. If these problems are caused by some sort of bacteria etc. then the chlorine may help eradicate them.

Just a suggestion that hopefully might help.

Bodge99.

Thanks, might have to do this if it carries on much longer (after ive treated for a long time and brought more fish, to die in the same way)
if that happens i sure will re read that and try it, so disheartening because ive only just filled it all up and drained one tank out in august time, when i changed tanks, its such a pain to drain it all, and sure enough i wont be able to get every last drop out, and wont the disease still be in the media?

I have skim-read this but I couldn't find the answer I needed, so apologies if you have said - how old are they? Getting lethargic, losing colour etc can all be signs of old age and if they're a year + then that could well be what's happening.

Since i brought them (all the guppies have only lasted me 2 months tops) some platies i have had a long time, others 5 or 6 months. I lost a cory i had for 4 years, i have one tetra ive had for 4 years too, which i try to remind myself when im convinced my waters toxic no matter what i do, i somewhat consider myself with some 'knowledge' in fishkeeping, until stuff like this happens...

 

[cuda]

Where did you get the sand? It seems after you changed the substrate the tank started to go down from there. Possibly aenerobic bacteria altering chemistry somehow? Try removing the sand and replace with a coarser gravel or mix in to create more circulation within substrate. With the fish scratching, it also seems like they are affected by something so finish course of treatment to see if that helps. Good luck.

 

[bodge99]

Hello,

As I understand it.. it is quite possible to have a "major presence" nasty in the tank, with little or none actually in the filter. The active colonies in the filter can "crowd out" new rivals.

As per usual, everything is variable.. just something to consider.

Don't try and remove every last drop.. just what you can remove easily. How do you remove your water??

Bodge99

 

[bodge99]

emilythestrange:

I've just re-read the whole thread.. A good suggestion regarding assassin snails .. I've got loads of these... lovely little creatures!

Regarding the livebearers: I'm primarily "into" mollies. I keep quite a few (line bred) species including a good selection of what I call "Heinz '57s". What I did notice when I was initially collecting some of the hybrid varieties (specific colours, finnage etc.) is how poor the quality was of some of them. I don't mean that they were diseased... just very prone to swimbladder problems etc. Most of the early ones I had died out quite quickly. I put this down to a combination of overbreeding and previous poor husbandry.

These days I only buy (rarely) from a few very select sources.. I no longer have problems of this kind.

The typical lifespan of my "Heinz '57s" is now significantly greater. I've got a 200 L tank that I use for my elderly mollies. Just somewhere nice and quiet where they can spend their "retirement". I've got some six year old mollies in there that have just given birth! (yep! a bit of a surprise!). My oldest molly is a 7 year old sailfin/liberty molly hybrid male. (Think of a fish the size of a large sailfin molly female, but with finnage colouring of a male liberty molly.). I know their exact age as I keep birth records.

I'm wondering if some of your livebearer problems have anything to do with stock quality?

Just a thought...

Bodge99.

 

[emilythestrange]

emilythestrange:

I've just re-read the whole thread.. A good suggestion regarding assassin snails .. I've got loads of these... lovely little creatures!

Regarding the livebearers: I'm primarily "into" mollies. I keep quite a few (line bred) species including a good selection of what I call "Heinz '57s". What I did notice when I was initially collecting some of the hybrid varieties (specific colours, finnage etc.) is how poor the quality was of some of them. I don't mean that they were diseased... just very prone to swimbladder problems etc. Most of the early ones I had died out quite quickly. I put this down to a combination of overbreeding and previous poor husbandry.

These days I only buy (rarely) from a few very select sources.. I no longer have problems of this kind.

The typical lifespan of my "Heinz '57s" is now significantly greater. I've got a 200 L tank that I use for my elderly mollies. Just somewhere nice and quiet where they can spend their "retirement". I've got some six year old mollies in there that have just given birth! (yep! a bit of a surprise!). My oldest molly is a 7 year old sailfin/liberty molly hybrid male. (Think of a fish the size of a large sailfin molly female, but with finnage colouring of a male liberty molly.). I know their exact age as I keep birth records.

I'm wondering if some of your livebearer problems have anything to do with stock quality?

Just a thought...

Bodge99.

I know that P@H isnt the best for livebearers etc, as it seems every time i go in, they don't look too good. Im really running out of choices of where to go. i live out in the countryside, and LFS are dying out. I only know of one which isnt too local, and is also rubbish... with the fish being smaller for the price and also ive had problems before (and they don't have the guarantee that P@H has).
To find somewhere decent, i wouldnt know where to start, i've brought endlers from a breeder, but as i have to travel 40ish miles, the breeders water ph is very different to mine.
I would try and breed my own stock, but it always involves more than one tank, and no where will take fish around here anymore.

Hello,

As I understand it.. it is quite possible to have a "major presence" nasty in the tank, with little or none actually in the filter. The active colonies in the filter can "crowd out" new rivals.

As per usual, everything is variable.. just something to consider.

Don't try and remove every last drop.. just what you can remove easily. How do you remove your water??

Bodge99

by siphon, its rather new and i rinse it alot before using it to pick up the dirt out of the sand the best i can. should i swirl all of the layer of sand everytime i w/c...

Where did you get the sand? It seems after you changed the substrate the tank started to go down from there. Possibly aenerobic bacteria altering chemistry somehow? Try removing the sand and replace with a coarser gravel or mix in to create more circulation within substrate. With the fish scratching, it also seems like they are affected by something so finish course of treatment to see if that helps. Good luck.

Its argos play sand (which i have found to be recommended by here a few times) i have used it before, but also had problems, but this was years ago, other people that have used it have lovely tanks. I like gravel, but its not so good for corys. Its ironic that with sand, the dirt rises and stays on the surface and gets cleaned up once a week, whereas gravel should be so much dirtier, but ive not had problems with it..
Sand looks alot better, i hope it isnt the sand, as ill never get every single grain out...

 

[bodge99]

Hello,

Happy New Year to all.

Yes, disturb the sand when you are performing water changes.. I do agree that sand can look really good. I tried it in a couple of my tanks but have decided to move away from sand (for a couple of reasons) and am currently experimenting with Sophisticat pink cat litter.

This site won't let be link to "another" fish site (with 'photos). Just google image search for this stuff and you'll see.

My snails love it! (various MTS, ramshorns and assassins). My plants **seem** to be doing better... I'll reserve judgement until I've seen growth over a year or so.

I've found that, because this stuff is a lot less dense than gravel, that water changes have to be more "gentle" in much the same way as with sand. I was expecting my mollies to pull the plants up more easily. I've been pleasantly surprised that this has not been the case.

Overall, a tentative "recommend" on this stuff.

I think that your corys would like it.

Bodge99

 

[bodge99]

Hello,

Just a couple of quick questions... What does (did) your tank smell like?? Obviously meds will affect the overall bacteria balance now...
Also, what does your filter smell like just before you clean it?

I've found over the years that the "nose test" can help indicate the start of problems before they become significant.

Bodge99.

 

[emilythestrange]

Hello,

Just a couple of quick questions... What does (did) your tank smell like?? Obviously meds will affect the overall bacteria balance now...
Also, what does your filter smell like just before you clean it?

I've found over the years that the "nose test" can help indicate the start of problems before they become significant.

Bodge99.

erm i can't really describe it to be honest, a faint fishy algae smell, nothing pungent or repulsive.

 

[CezzaXV]

As a side note to the nitrate issue, do you know how much nitrate is in your tap water? It is a little high, though how bad it is depends on what's coming out of your tap. The rule of thumb is that you want to be doing large/frequent enough changes that your tank water doesnt go much above 20ppm above what comes out of your tap.

High levels of nitrate may make your fish more susceptible to disease, though it's probably not the likely cause in this case, just something to consider for later.

 

[garethp]

I have read the whole thread and I can see that you have tried at least 6 different medications and the thread was only started on the 9th Dec. Could you list what you have tried and how often?

I wonder if the constant bombardment of medications themselves are stressing the fish out and weakening their immune systems. The meds could also be reacting with each other if there is any left over when changing to a new one.
How are you measuring the doses? Are you taking into account water displaced by decorations, etc and reducing the dose accordingly?

Only reason I say this is that some time ago, I was treating for fin rot, which required two week long courses of med. Towards the end of that treatment, a load of my fish came down with whitespot, so I started a different treatment for that (after waterchanges).

During all this treatment process my fish looked washed out and terrible - hiding all the time and not really interested in food, flicking and even "barrel-rolling", and I lost 8 fish during that time.
At the end of the treatment for whitespot I did several waterchanges over the course of a couple of days and with each waterchange the tank came more back to life. The fish coloured up, were ravenous eaters and played all day long in the filter stream. The change was almost instantaneous

A few days later I unfortunately noticed some more whitespot on one of my neons, and convinced something about the treatment I used before didn't agree with the fish, I wasn't going to use it again.

So, instead I tried the old method of slowly adding aquarium salt (1tbs per 5 gallons), thinking this would be less stressful for my fish.
I am glad to say in my case, it worked wonders - the whitespot dropped off within 5 days, and did not come back. And all the while, my fish were their happy usual selves, nothing like they were when on the "meds". I left the salt in for three weeks (replaced the equivalent back during waterchanges) and then slowly diluted it by adding unsalted water for the next several changes.

So, my point is that sometimes is may be a good idea to take a step back and re-evaluate the situation. It's all well and good adding meds to cure a disease, but you have said yourself you have tried many, and you don't really know what it is you are treating for.


Personally if it was me, I would finish the course of treatment you are using now, then once done do plenty of nice sized water changes to clear out any residual meds, and bring the tank back to a "pure water" state and then see how the fish get on.

I know you feel your tank is getting empty, but I would not be adding any more fish into it until I knew what the problem was and that it had gone. Replacing fish now, is pretty much like a guaranteed death sentence.
Yes, your filter bacteria will probably reduce in line with your currently dwindling stocking, but as long as you add any new fish in the future slowly it will catch back up. Some believe the bacteria go dormant, rather than die off.

One other thing I don't has been established is what are you feeding your fish - do any of these problems coincide with the purchase of new food? Is the food in date? Has the lid been left off and been contaminated by any air freshener/polish sprays etc? Is it a different brand than usual?

 

[emilythestrange]

I cant say its any of the food to be honest, the problems started before i bought soem more algae wafers (for the cory) the flakes i have used for a long time.

I meant earlier that i've done about 8 doses of the same med - paraguard.

after a w/c i havent added anymore, they seem better, but the platies occasionally hide around the filter ...

the lid hasnt been left off, i used to have an open topped tank, and im doing nothing different now.
Im sort of convinced the change to sand has triggered all these problems, as i didnt know i had to turn it all over every week.

 

[cambojnr]

I cant say its any of the food to be honest, the problems started before i bought soem more algae wafers (for the cory) the flakes i have used for a long time.

I meant earlier that i've done about 8 doses of the same med - paraguard.

after a w/c i havent added anymore, they seem better, but the platies occasionally hide around the filter ...

the lid hasnt been left off, i used to have an open topped tank, and im doing nothing different now.
Im sort of convinced the change to sand has triggered all these problems, as i didnt know i had to turn it all over every week.

all I do with my sand is stick a pole in every week.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I cant say its any of the food to be honest, the problems started before i bought soem more algae wafers (for the cory) the flakes i have used for a long time.

I meant earlier that i've done about 8 doses of the same med - paraguard.

after a w/c i havent added anymore, they seem better, but the platies occasionally hide around the filter ...

the lid hasnt been left off, i used to have an open topped tank, and im doing nothing different now.
Im sort of convinced the change to sand has triggered all these problems, as i didnt know i had to turn it all over every week.

This is a minor issue in this situation, but cories are carnivorous, not algae eaters. They would do better with meaty food, like shrimp pellets, rather than algae wafers.

 

[emilythestrange]

I cant say its any of the food to be honest, the problems started before i bought soem more algae wafers (for the cory) the flakes i have used for a long time.

I meant earlier that i've done about 8 doses of the same med - paraguard.

after a w/c i havent added anymore, they seem better, but the platies occasionally hide around the filter ...

the lid hasnt been left off, i used to have an open topped tank, and im doing nothing different now.
Im sort of convinced the change to sand has triggered all these problems, as i didnt know i had to turn it all over every week.

This is a minor issue in this situation, but cories are carnivorous, not algae eaters. They would do better with meaty food, like shrimp pellets, rather than algae wafers.

oh ive never heard/ come across this before! i had an albino cory that lived 4 years with me and all i fed him was algae wafers, and he did eat flakes that dropped to the floor. algae wafers are the only food advertised as being for catfish/corys/bottom feeders in my lfs's.
In all of my lfs i haven't ever seen any shrimp pellets for sale, my shrimp eat the algae wafers too and swim off with pieces of them!! how strange would it be for shrimp to eat shrimp pellets haha. would the shrimp pellets be too much protein for my guppy/platies..?

I cant say its any of the food to be honest, the problems started before i bought soem more algae wafers (for the cory) the flakes i have used for a long time.

I meant earlier that i've done about 8 doses of the same med - paraguard.

after a w/c i havent added anymore, they seem better, but the platies occasionally hide around the filter ...

the lid hasnt been left off, i used to have an open topped tank, and im doing nothing different now.
Im sort of convinced the change to sand has triggered all these problems, as i didnt know i had to turn it all over every week.

all I do with my sand is stick a pole in every week.

wooden? like a wooden spoon end or something

the remaining platies are still flicking on things and go in and out of being active then hanging around hr filter, fins clamped etc. i can't see any whitespots, but its almost as if they have a sort of coating, but i can barely tell, and one of my platies is white.. the guppy is fine.. and the tetras/cory