So What Am I Lacking Here?

[Byron]

Hey, so I was reading something about having a split up time frame on lights being on/off. Cant recall the exact term, but the jist of it is that you have lights on 4 hours, off 3 hours, then back on 4 hours, then off. Granted, I understand this is not optimal for bulb life, but then again, they are cheap enough to replace anyways. Any thoughts on that?
 

 
This is usually termed the siesta method.  It is actually connected to CO2, but some background wil help in case this is new to you.
 
Plants will photosynthesize if light is sufficient intensity, and provided all 17 required nutrients are present.  As soon as one of these is no longer sufficient to balance the rest, photosynthesis slows, and may even stop altogether, depending.  It is at this point obviously that algae begins to take advantage.  [For this discussion, we are assuming the light intensity is basically what is needed; more than this will cause algae regardless.]  In the low-tech or natural method planted tank, CO2 is the nutrient that usually runs out first, since we are relying on the naturally-occurring CO2 whereas we can add other nutrients artificially.
 
Plants photosynthesize full out if everything is present.  As CO2 is a macro-nutrient, it gets used up fairly quickly, and faster than it can be replaced during the period of brightest light.  Remember that most of the CO2 comes from the breakdown of organics in the substrate; that resulting from the respiration of fish, plants and bacteria is much less in quantity and insufficient on its own--and yes, plants respirate just as fish do, taking in oxygen and giving off CO2, day and night.  It is only during the day under sufficient light that they also take in CO2 and give off oxygen in greater amounts than the respiration reverse.  The production of CO2 in the substrate occurs continually, but during the night when the plants are not taking it up, it multiplies to a much higher level.  When the light comes on, photosynthesis begins to use this CO2, and at some point the CO2 becomes depleted.  The time this takes depends upon the level of CO2 produced during darkness, the number and type of plants, and the fish load.
 
The principle behind the siesta method is that the period of darkness for a few hours between two periods of light allows the CO2 to rebuild.
 
The problem is that plants and fish do not appreciate this arrangement.  Fish, like all animals, have a circadian rhythm, an internal "clock" that regulates their system, and is dependent upon light/dark.  It is intended to run over a 24-hour period.  Ironically, plants have a similar feature that can distinguish the duration of light, though the upsetting for plants appears to be less of an issue.  It takes fish a period of time to adjust to daylight and darkness, roughly around 30 minutes, and when the expected day/night cycle is interrupted and in effect doubled, the fish's physiology has no option but to react.  The fish may undergo stress, which weakens the immune system and leads to various other issues.
 
The light over a fish tank has a very significant effect upon the fish, much more than most realize.  I won't go into this now, but if asked I can; I have touched on this in other threads in the past few weeks.
 
Byron. 

 

[watertown28]

 

Hey, so I was reading something about having a split up time frame on lights being on/off. Cant recall the exact term, but the jist of it is that you have lights on 4 hours, off 3 hours, then back on 4 hours, then off. Granted, I understand this is not optimal for bulb life, but then again, they are cheap enough to replace anyways. Any thoughts on that?
 

 
This is usually termed the siesta method.  It is actually connected to CO2, but some background wil help in case this is new to you.
 
Plants will photosynthesize if light is sufficient intensity, and provided all 17 required nutrients are present.  As soon as one of these is no longer sufficient to balance the rest, photosynthesis slows, and may even stop altogether, depending.  It is at this point obviously that algae begins to take advantage.  [For this discussion, we are assuming the light intensity is basically what is needed; more than this will cause algae regardless.]  In the low-tech or natural method planted tank, CO2 is the nutrient that usually runs out first, since we are relying on the naturally-occurring CO2 whereas we can add other nutrients artificially.
 
Plants photosynthesize full out if everything is present.  As CO2 is a macro-nutrient, it gets used up fairly quickly, and faster than it can be replaced during the period of brightest light.  Remember that most of the CO2 comes from the breakdown of organics in the substrate; that resulting from the respiration of fish, plants and bacteria is much less in quantity and insufficient on its own--and yes, plants respirate just as fish do, taking in oxygen and giving off CO2, day and night.  It is only during the day under sufficient light that they also take in CO2 and give off oxygen in greater amounts than the respiration reverse.  The production of CO2 in the substrate occurs continually, but during the night when the plants are not taking it up, it multiplies to a much higher level.  When the light comes on, photosynthesis begins to use this CO2, and at some point the CO2 becomes depleted.  The time this takes depends upon the level of CO2 produced during darkness, the number and type of plants, and the fish load.
 
The principle behind the siesta method is that the period of darkness for a few hours between two periods of light allows the CO2 to rebuild.
 
The problem is that plants and fish do not appreciate this arrangement.  Fish, like all animals, have a circadian rhythm, an internal "clock" that regulates their system, and is dependent upon light/dark.  It is intended to run over a 24-hour period.  Ironically, plants have a similar feature that can distinguish the duration of light, though the upsetting for plants appears to be less of an issue.  It takes fish a period of time to adjust to daylight and darkness, roughly around 30 minutes, and when the expected day/night cycle is interrupted and in effect doubled, the fish's physiology has no option but to react.  The fish may undergo stress, which weakens the immune system and leads to various other issues.
 
The light over a fish tank has a very significant effect upon the fish, much more than most realize.  I won't go into this now, but if asked I can; I have touched on this in other threads in the past few weeks.
 
Byron. 
 

I guess the other option is to restrict the amount of light reaching in then. I have zebra loaches and the ram, of course both are a bit more touchy and die easier than zebra dinos would. I guess the next best option is to raise the lights, which I have already, and see what happens.
 
The basic goal here is not to get great plant growth, I dont mind if its slow, as long as I can keep the algae in check. I know you can have plants and not have the awesome lighting to go along with it for you to have a nice planted tank.
 
I might even step up my cleaning and changing tank water more often every week, say 3 to 4 times a week, but smaller amounts.  I am leaning on the fact that it might be better to have cleaner water without all the nutrients in abundance, than have too much in the water and then this happens:
 

 

 

 
 
This is from a few days ago so when the lights come on tonight I will post the improvements. I need to stick my hand in the main tank to vacume the sand time to time. The bio load is not huge for the volume, but the food might be the main cause I think along with all the decay I had going on there with too much light ( Intensity )

 

[Byron]

You should have posted these photos previously.  This is not algae, it is cyanobacteria, a photosynthetic bacteria caused by organics in the presence of light.  This can be tricky to eradicate.
 
First, major water changes, and dig into the substrate to remove organics during the water changes.  Second, you are going to have to reduce the light intensity very significantly.
 
Before someone suggests it...yes, antibiotics will kill this (it is a bacteria), but it will only come back if the cause is not corrected, and one should not dump antibiotics in to a tank with fish unless essential for the fish.  Same holds for light blackouts, they are only temporary bandaids.
 
I have had cyano in only one of my seven tanks, twice; the organic source was the substrate, unclean filter, combined with brighter light.  I dealt with it by keeping the filter clean, vacuuming the substrate well and removing as much of the cyano (loosen it with your fingers, then it will siphon out) as possible during water changes which should be 50-60% once a week during this, and I reduced the light duration by one hour--but I had moderate light over this tank so it was simply the longer duration compared to the other tanks that were deeper with the same lighting.  More frequent water changes would help get rid of more of this, but keep in mind that without rectifying the cause it will only return.  Reduce feeding (if you suspect overfeeding).  If the fish load is high, this is an obvious source of organics; I don't know what fish are present.  

 

[watertown28]

You should have posted these photos previously.  This is not algae, it is cyanobacteria, a photosynthetic bacteria caused by organics in the presence of light.  This can be tricky to eradicate.
 
First, major water changes, and dig into the substrate to remove organics during the water changes.  Second, you are going to have to reduce the light intensity very significantly.
 
Before someone suggests it...yes, antibiotics will kill this (it is a bacteria), but it will only come back if the cause is not corrected, and one should not dump antibiotics in to a tank with fish unless essential for the fish.  Same holds for light blackouts, they are only temporary bandaids.
 
I have had cyano in only one of my seven tanks, twice; the organic source was the substrate, unclean filter, combined with brighter light.  I dealt with it by keeping the filter clean, vacuuming the substrate well and removing as much of the cyano (loosen it with your fingers, then it will siphon out) as possible during water changes which should be 50-60% once a week during this, and I reduced the light duration by one hour--but I had moderate light over this tank so it was simply the longer duration compared to the other tanks that were deeper with the same lighting.  More frequent water changes would help get rid of more of this, but keep in mind that without rectifying the cause it will only return.  Reduce feeding (if you suspect overfeeding).  If the fish load is high, this is an obvious source of organics; I don't know what fish are present.  

LOL we have already talked about the BGA recently. That is why we have done what you have said for the most part ( besides the blackout which I refuse to do ).
 
SO the plan is :
-To up the WC weekly. Sump @ 35 gallons and tank @ 65 gallons ( taking out the volume lost for substrate and stuff ). I think a ~25 gallon WC every other day would help
-Raise lights off the top of tank to ~12 inches off the top of tank
-Vacuum sand in tank at least once a week
-Change Filter pad once a week
-Clean Sump bottom of gunk ( this is the most challenging for its ground level and its tough to keep the vacuum going )

 

[Byron]

LOL we have already talked about the BGA recently. That is why we have done what you have said for the most part ( besides the blackout which I refuse to do ).
 
SO the plan is :
-To up the WC weekly. Sump @ 35 gallons and tank @ 65 gallons ( taking out the volume lost for substrate and stuff ). I think a ~25 gallon WC every other day would help
-Raise lights off the top of tank to ~12 inches off the top of tank
-Vacuum sand in tank at least once a week
-Change Filter pad once a week
-Clean Sump bottom of gunk ( this is the most challenging for its ground level and its tough to keep the vacuum going )
 

 
I post in several threads and can't keep track of what I said in which, so bear with repeats.
 
It is possible the sump is impacting this, from the perspective of keeping high organics.  I've never used sumps, so only a thought.
 
Re filter cleaning, just keep the filter media well rinsed, pads included.  I tend to replace the last pad, the white "fine" one, at every rinsing of the filter because this one when rinsed out tends to sort of fall apart or lose shape and thickness.  I know one bout of cyano was due to a dirty filter, but the point is that any accumulation of organics is the thing to go after.
 
I really do think your bright lighting is going to cause continuing issues.  Raising it higher does mean less light getting into the tank, but I would find it impossible to sit and view an aquarium with the glare of the lighting, not to mention that it is using more energy than needed.  I would look at a replacement.
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

 

LOL we have already talked about the BGA recently. That is why we have done what you have said for the most part ( besides the blackout which I refuse to do ).
 
SO the plan is :
-To up the WC weekly. Sump @ 35 gallons and tank @ 65 gallons ( taking out the volume lost for substrate and stuff ). I think a ~25 gallon WC every other day would help
-Raise lights off the top of tank to ~12 inches off the top of tank
-Vacuum sand in tank at least once a week
-Change Filter pad once a week
-Clean Sump bottom of gunk ( this is the most challenging for its ground level and its tough to keep the vacuum going )
 

 
I post in several threads and can't keep track of what I said in which, so bear with repeats.
 
It is possible the sump is impacting this, from the perspective of keeping high organics.  I've never used sumps, so only a thought.
 
Re filter cleaning, just keep the filter media well rinsed, pads included.  I tend to replace the last pad, the white "fine" one, at every rinsing of the filter because this one when rinsed out tends to sort of fall apart or lose shape and thickness.  I know one bout of cyano was due to a dirty filter, but the point is that any accumulation of organics is the thing to go after.
 
I really do think your bright lighting is going to cause continuing issues.  Raising it higher does mean less light getting into the tank, but I would find it impossible to sit and view an aquarium with the glare of the lighting, not to mention that it is using more energy than needed.  I would look at a replacement.
 
Byron.
 

Well the padding I get cheap because I cut my own. So a change out would not be an issue cost wise. Plus I figured it would not hurt as much because being changed out often would mean that what bacteria that did grow on it would be minor.
 
Now, as for the bio media...that of course I never messed with too much if at all. I mean I dont clean it. At all. That too can be a huge source of organics that get caught up in that. Just for reference I use the plastic scrubby pads that look like the scrubbies you get for your body wash. They have tons of surface area and allows water to pass though it. I have like 10 of them crammed in there lol. So its like a wet/dry type of set up. I also have a air pump pumping bubbles in there so the oxygen reaches the pads ... at least my understanding is that the beneficial bacteria love well oxygenated areas.... and this also helps create a current around the pads so more water contact. SO how do you properly clean that without losing your colony?
 
Now as for replacements? You mean less watts? These are your standard T8's 32 watt bulbs. I guess I could take out one bulb but then that would really cut the light in half. I will first see how the rise in height effect this and then go from there.The glare is minimal at least to me I can deal with it.

 

[Byron]

Again, I am hesitant to comment much on the sump filter aspect, as I have never used this, but I would think this a major source for organics.  Perhaps others with experience could step in and help you with this part.
 
The light we can deal with, and again my apology as I was thinking this T5, obviously getting other threads tangled.  Anyway, you have two 4-foot T8 tubes, over a 75 and/or 72 bowfront?  This is not too much, I have the same over my 70g (the one that had the cyano) and my 90g and my 5-foot 115g.  Are the tanks 4 feet in length (I assume they are with the 4-foot tubes)?  What type of tubes, and what is the daily duration of light?  Second guessing a bit, I use one 5000K and one 6500K, and on the 70g they are on for 7 hours, and on the other two tanks for 8 hours.  More than this, and brush algae begins to appear/increase, so I have found this balances my fish load/nutrients for the plants I have.
 
Spectrum is important, as algae and cyano can take advantage of any light, whereas higher plants are much more finicky.
 
If the light is close to the above, then I would suggest the sump may be the main issue.  But water changes, fish load, and feeding do factor in too.
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

Again, I am hesitant to comment much on the sump filter aspect, as I have never used this, but I would think this a major source for organics.  Perhaps others with experience could step in and help you with this part.
 
The light we can deal with, and again my apology as I was thinking this T5, obviously getting other threads tangled.  Anyway, you have two 4-foot T8 tubes, over a 75 and/or 72 bowfront?  This is not too much, I have the same over my 70g (the one that had the cyano) and my 90g and my 5-foot 115g.  Are the tanks 4 feet in length (I assume they are with the 4-foot tubes)?  What type of tubes, and what is the daily duration of light?  Second guessing a bit, I use one 5000K and one 6500K, and on the 70g they are on for 7 hours, and on the other two tanks for 8 hours.  More than this, and brush algae begins to appear/increase, so I have found this balances my fish load/nutrients for the plants I have.
 
Spectrum is important, as algae and cyano can take advantage of any light, whereas higher plants are much more finicky.
 
If the light is close to the above, then I would suggest the sump may be the main issue.  But water changes, fish load, and feeding do factor in too.
 
Byron.

Yeah I use a lot of freeze dried foods in the 75 gallon because it has the German Blue Rams in there so they are heck of a finicky eaters I tell you. Im not sure what the phosphate levels are typically on those foods, but the brand I use for the freeze dried on One Omega.
 
Yeah the lights are the typical 4 ft lights. Yes they are normal T8's GE brand. They are not the typical fixtures that you get cheaper, they are more "reflective" if you will in the design so you dont lose the light bouncing all around and wasted on the sides or on top. I think its said to have a 90% light reflective.... so very little gets lost.  Now its interesting you are using the warmer 5000K along with your 6500K. I suppose it gets more blues the lower the temp in Kelvin? That is something I should try out.
 
BTW both the 72 and 75 have the same exact lights. Right down to the timer they are both the same. I think I cut my hours from 8 to 6 hours ( 3pm to 9 pm ).

 

[Byron]

Yeah the lights are the typical 4 ft lights. Yes they are normal T8's GE brand. They are not the typical fixtures that you get cheaper, they are more "reflective" if you will in the design so you dont lose the light bouncing all around and wasted on the sides or on top. I think its said to have a 90% light reflective.... so very little gets lost.  Now its interesting you are using the warmer 5000K along with your 6500K. I suppose it gets more blues the lower the temp in Kelvin? That is something I should try out.
 
BTW both the 72 and 75 have the same exact lights. Right down to the timer they are both the same. I think I cut my hours from 8 to 6 hours ( 3pm to 9 pm ).
 

 
Aquatic plants need red and blue light to drive photosynthesis; interestingly, studies have shown that when green is also included with red and blue, plants respond better (measured as increased oxygen output which of course is the result of photosynthesis).  Light within the 5000K to 7000K range provides this.  Within this range, the preference is somewhat up to the aquarist.  The lower the Kelvin, the more red and less blue (i.e., warmer light), and the higher the Kelvin, the more blue and less red (cooler light).  On single tube tanks I tend to prefer around 6500K, but when I have dual tubes, I prefer the mix of 5000K and 6500K which adds a touch of warmth.
 
Previously, I went the opposite, with a much cooler white, by using one 6500K and one 10,000K.  The plants seemed to grow OK, but now that I have changed (which was over a year ago now, so time to assess this) I have noticed less problem algae.  I am certain this is related.  One of the issues with so-called marine lighting which is very high in the blue is a proliferation of problem algae, along with plant weakening.  So the red is clearly important.
 
It shouldn't be necessary to go below six hours duration, but again every aquarium is a bit different.  I have the lights on for 8 hours on all my tanks except the 70g which is 7 hours, and this has eliminated the increased algae and perhaps the cyano too which was only in this tank previously.  Of course, the other thing is the number and species of plants, and the nutrients, both added (fertilizers) and natural.  If one had a tank with more fish and few plants, algae (and cyano) would be more prevalent than in the same conditions but with more and fast-growing plants.  Sometimes this balance can be very delicate.  I used to see an increase in brush algae in my larger tanks every summer, and it occurred to me that the additional light entering the room (from longer days and brighter daylight) may be the cause; I put heavy drapes as well as blinds on the windows, and kept them closed during the summer months (I have my tanks in a dedicated fish room, so no issue with windows and light)--end of algae issues in the summer.  Obviously, it was the increase in light in the room that spurred on the algae.
 
I have floating plants in all my tanks for a couple of reasons.  Primarily, it does impact positively on the fish, which do not appreciate strong overhead lighting.  But there is without doubt a biological aspect, because floating plants tend to use more nutrients/organics from the water than lower plants.  This is because the floating are closer to the light (which drives photosynthesis) and the aerial advantage means they can assimilate CO2 from the air as opposed to the water; this is easier for the plants, as it is about four times faster, and obviously there will be more CO2 available in the air than the water.  Floating plants are what some term ammonia sinks; they take up a considerable quantity of ammonia/ammonium and other nutrients from the water.
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

Hrm. Very good info.
 
Ill read it a bit more carefully in a bit but I wanted to update on a test I did. Now, I have been using API kits forever, never cared too much for them, more so the ones where you have to add one set of drops, shake, and then add another set. I always got liquid leaking out the caps no matter what I did, and of course, one has to believe that effects the readings.
 
Now you recall how I said the NO3 readings a few days back were around 10 ppm according to the test right? Well, I finally bit the bullet and got the Salifert tests kits... and wow. Anyways, the NH4 always was reading a light color green with API no matter what. I assumed it was just the kit anyways because it would always show that color no matter what ( in established tanks of course ). Got the other brand kit, and lone behold, white. So no ammonia in the water as I expected.
 
I just got another one in the mail for the NO3. Guess what, the test showed 50ppm+. This is AFTER 3 days in a row of cleaning the display tank ( vacuum ) and total water volume removed was ~30 or so gallons or 30%+ per day. To me that shows there is still a ton of organics in there OR the NO3 was so high even the water changes have not really put a dent in it because they were so high.
 
So I am going to keep changing the water to get this more manageable... like down to at least 20ppm.

 

[Byron]

Yes.  On the nitrate, high nitrate does not in itself cause cyano or algae issues, but a high nitrate reading does indicate probable organics.  When I have had cyano, my nitrate has still been normal for my tanks, between 0 and 5 ppm.
 
You should test the source (tap) water for nitrate, to confirm it is either coming solely from the aquarium or if any are being introduced with the water changes.
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

Yes.  On the nitrate, high nitrate does not in itself cause cyano or algae issues, but a high nitrate reading does indicate probable organics.  When I have had cyano, my nitrate has still been normal for my tanks, between 0 and 5 ppm.
 
You should test the source (tap) water for nitrate, to confirm it is either coming solely from the aquarium or if any are being introduced with the water changes.
 
Byron.

Well I did a test about 5 hours after another WC and it seems to have gone down to ~10ppm. I will test again here now that its been over 12 hours.
 
BTW, I dont know if you recall this, but my bowfront 72 gallon was on the basement floor ( on a table ) and I have raised it up. Now I actually have it off the floor. Let me tell you, I wish I had done this BEFORE i set my tanks up. Legs when cut, all never seem to be flush and level no matter what I did. Now the bricks I using now are a sure bet of a flat surface and tanks are leaning and no need to shim.

 

[watertown28]

Update:
Well the BGA is pretty much gone minus a few spots here and there. The BBA is pretty much gone too.
 
So we are redoing tanks!
 
I have taken down 2 more of my 55 gallons.
 
I upgraded one 55 gallon ( it was empty anyways ) and got a 75 gallon tank! I then got the female guppies out of one of the 55 gallon tanks ( they were just having babies left and right... ) put them into the 75 gallon. About 5 of them.
I then took the 5 rainbows and 4 corrie cats out of the other 55, put them into the same 75 gallon tank. Sadly, I had a death of one of my rainbows. I had to use a 5 gallon bucket because these things are HUGE ( like 5 inches if not more now ) and as I was prepping the rest of the new 75 gallon tank, one jumped out and did not notice it. What a way to go and I am gonna miss him. I almost lost another one too netting them, for they LOVE to jump. Dang thing jumpped like 3 feet in the air I swear!
Anyways, the Rainbows sure seem to love the new tank along with the corries, more space for sure, wider to boot. The guppies all seem to be there so I think the rainbows are not eating them so far lol.
 
I then took the lone peacock gobbie and put him into the other 72 bow . That one has a softer current and has a group of green fire tetras he seems to like chasing around. Over all his fins are flared and coloration is great on him. I think he likes being in there for now, I hope to land some more of them....
 
So the next plan is upgrading. I have one more 55 gallon that has the male guppies and some fry in there. I bit the bullet and got me a nice new 120 gallon tank!