So What Am I Lacking Here?

[watertown28]

Well so far so good on the 72 bow... seems to be nice and clear now.
Now I am getting that issue in the 75 gallon tank... so I am starting to see signs of it so now time to combat it in there. I am also getting a few spots of blue/green stuff so that leads me to think that its less the optimal water quality along with too much light.
Now I did trim down the time on the lights to 6.5 hours before hand... so this has been about 2 weeks about from that change... Next up is raising the lights a bit more about 1/2 inch to maybe an inch to see what happens. I am not really sold on the water quality being an issue because the large amount of water changed, though I have switched like I said to more often smaller water changes along making sure no organics are in the sump.
 
You were right each tank is different than the other. I guess over all its better to get advice on what to do. It seems to have worked in the 72 gallon, now we are onto the next tank.
 
O yeah, and the other 55 gets brown spot algae diatoms or whatever its called. I only have a few guppies in that one, no bottom dwellers that would eat the food that sinks the the bottom... but hey, plants are doing well minus the brown stuff all over the glass. I might need to raise that light up too because its right on the top of the tank also.
 
Grrrrr

 

[watertown28]

Man o man ... things are okay still.... though I am learning that as the Wisteria gets taller, the stems seem to rot down below as the fuller leaves seem to do something at the top ruining the plant below.
 
So is it better to keep them shorter? I just more or less loss a bunch due to the stems rotting too much, as for many of the lower leaves dies.

 

[Byron]

Man o man ... things are okay still.... though I am learning that as the Wisteria gets taller, the stems seem to rot down below as the fuller leaves seem to do something at the top ruining the plant below.
 
So is it better to keep them shorter? I just more or less loss a bunch due to the stems rotting too much, as for many of the lower leaves dies.

 
This is common with many stem plants.  It is due to less light lower down, so the stems grow toward the light and as they do, the lower leaves receive less and tend to die off.  You can regularly pull the stems up, trim them, and replant the top (new growth) portions.

 

[watertown28]

OOo now a question ( like I dont already have enough of those lol )
 
I know we have touched on the algae being most likely due to fluxuation of the CO2 in the tank.... this got me thinking...
 
So lets see if I have this right:
Plants use CO2 when the lights go on.
Plants start to use the O2 when the lights go off and start producing CO2 into the water.
Many of the bacteria ALSO make CO2, along with all the other stuff like decay from uneaten food and all that.
 
So what should be happening is that there is a large build up of CO2 in the tank while the lights are off, because the plants are not using it. When they come on, there is too much CO2 in the water which is more than plants can use, and also creates a fluctuation of CO2 in the tank helping spur on algae. The fluctuation can also come from water changes, less or more bacteria... just about anything right?
 
 
Sooooo I was thinking.... how about adding air stones to the tank? I mean I hardly have any surface agitation to begin with because of how the pipe putting water in the tank is designed to get as much flow around the tank without the need of a power head.

 

[Byron]

So lets see if I have this right:
Plants use CO2 when the lights go on.
Plants start to use the O2 when the lights go off and start producing CO2 into the water.
Many of the bacteria ALSO make CO2, along with all the other stuff like decay from uneaten food and all that.
 

 
I'm breaking your question down to make it easier to respond to individual points.  All fish, plants and many bacteria respirate continually, taking up oxygen and releasing CO2.  This continues non-stop, 24/7, day and night.  The uptake of oxygen by fish naturally increases during the day and decreases at night, due to their activity level changing, so the respiration rate is not the same over 24 hours, but the point is that respiration is on-going with all fish and plants.
 
During the daylight, and provided the light is of sufficient intensity to drive photosynthesis [this varies from plant species to species], plants will take up CO2 as their preferred source of carbon.  Photosynthesis is the process plants use to obtain energy, by using light to break down the molecular structure of water to separate hydrogen and oxygen; the plant cells then rearrange the carbon, oxygen and hydrogen molecules.  Hydrogen binds with carbon and then oxygen, creating glucose.  Some oxygen is left over and this "waste product" is released through the roots and leaves.  Provided all 17 nutrients are available in sufficient quantity, and the light is sufficient intensity, plants will photosynthesize as fast as they can, literally, until something in this equation is no longer available.
 
During darkness, or when the light is insufficient to drive photosynthesis, the process slows and stops.  At that point the plant is still respiring normally, but no longer taking in CO2 or giving off waste oxygen.
 
CO2 is produced by the breakdown of organics by bacteria, primarily in the substrate.  This is by far the largest source of CO2 in a "natural" [= not high-tech] planted tank.  This continues non-stop [so far as I know] and during darkness builds up.  In daylight, plants begin to take up the CO2, and the speed at which they do this is governed by the light intensity and availability of other nutrients as I said above.
 

So what should be happening is that there is a large build up of CO2 in the tank while the lights are off, because the plants are not using it. When they come on, there is too much CO2 in the water which is more than plants can use, and also creates a fluctuation of CO2 in the tank helping spur on algae. The fluctuation can also come from water changes, less or more bacteria... just about anything right?
 

 
The CO2 builds, but as soon as there is sufficient light intensity, plants will begin to take up the CO2.  Obviously the rate this occurs varies from plant species to species, and the number of plants, and the light intensity and other nutrients.  However, the build-up of CO2 during the regular diurnal process is not going to cause algae, or minimally at most, because the plants are pretty quick at grabbing it.  This is where we get into the duration of the tank lighting being important.  If the light intensity remains much past the point at which the plants have used most of the CO2 or any other nutrient, then photosynthesis slows and may even cease.  Algae uses the light because algae is less fussy about other nutrients and can "make do," in a sense, where higher plants cannot.
 
I know there are aquarists who blame algae on CO2 levels, and fluctuating levels.  But from my own experience, I have always found light to be the major factor in algae, whether too much or too little.  Second is nutrients in general, such as fertilizers.  If these are being added at levels beyond what the plants can use in relation to the light and CO2, algae again takes the advantage.  Now, CO2 is one nutrient, so obviously there is some relevance.  But I have never seern an algae bloom every morning, nor indeed any algae increases unless my lighting gets off balance, such as with old tubes, or increased lighting as used to occur in summer with the longer and brighter days allowing more light into the fish room.  Blocking the windows solved that problem, so again, it is back to the light driving photosynthesis.
 

Sooooo I was thinking.... how about adding air stones to the tank? I mean I hardly have any surface agitation to begin with because of how the pipe putting water in the tank is designed to get as much flow around the tank without the need of a power head.
 

 
We used to be told, no surface disturbance or you will drive off CO2...but this thinking has changed.  I have not come across any study evidence on this, but provided it is not excessive, I doubt much harm will occur from some surface disturbance.  I have some, not much, and I have not detected any issues since I increased it a bit.
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

Alright, but it might be I might not have gotten the amount of time the lights are on right.
 
So lets say I dont have as "intense" lights to have the plants use up a lot of the CO2 due to the fact there is not enough light to do so, would that affect the fluctuation in CO2 levels? I mean, you can look at your LFS that has plants in a tank, no lights on it besides the lights of the store gosh knows how high up, or if it does happen to be in a tank where there are fish, there is little light in that too in a sense as useful lights..... but those tanks with loose plants and only plants always seem to be so "clean" where the plant leaves, though be in a bit of rough shape, are all algae free.

 

[Byron]

Alright, but it might be I might not have gotten the amount of time the lights are on right.
 
So lets say I dont have as "intense" lights to have the plants use up a lot of the CO2 due to the fact there is not enough light to do so, would that affect the fluctuation in CO2 levels? I mean, you can look at your LFS that has plants in a tank, no lights on it besides the lights of the store gosh knows how high up, or if it does happen to be in a tank where there are fish, there is little light in that too in a sense as useful lights..... but those tanks with loose plants and only plants always seem to be so "clean" where the plant leaves, though be in a bit of rough shape, are all algae free.

 
You really can't use fish store plants in tanks as indicative.  Also, plants can manage without light for a time.  There are several factors in all this.
 
To the light intensity...each species of plant needs a certain intensity of light in order to photosynthesize.  When that is not present, photosynthesis will be slow or non-existent, and that is when algae can use the minimal light and nutrients to take hold.  I have seen this occur when tubes have aged to the point where they no longer emit sufficient light intensity.
 
I personally do not worry at all about fluctuating CO2 levels; I know that CO2 is occurring, and plants are obviously using it or they wouldn't be alive and growing.

 

[watertown28]

Well its been a while sense I posted here so a little update on progress.
 
In my trial and error, I have seemed to do well on the 2x 55 gallon tanks.
Now, the one I decided to use a less than optimal lighting setup, was one 8000k bulb and then a old grow light. Wisteria and moneywort more or less struggled to the point where they rotted on the bottoms and became free floating. The anubus was struggling too, leaves starting to turn brown in a few spots, that more or less was my sign I better do something. The light fixture is a generic 10 dollar type. Not the new types I bought. About a foot or so off the tank, and the glass for the cover are more or less not the cleanest.
The free floating plants even at the surface did not do anything. SO I finally broke down an installed one 6500k light and guess what? The plants on the surface are starting to send out roots and the plants still left on the bottom are starting to rebound. I only had one bulb so I need to pick up a pair so I can install them.
 
The other 55 gallons with the new fixture and twin 6500k bulbs seems to be doing okay. Get some brown spot algae here and there, but very minor and I can go a long time ( month or more ) without cleaning it up. Guppies are happy for what was 5 now has gotten to the point where I might decide to let em become feeder fish ( I know might sound mean but... some fish eat fish. )
 
Now... the two 75 gallon tanks. These suckers are tough. Man I must admit ongoing battle.
 
The 72 bow just seems to love to grow the beard algae. I tried to lessen the dose of excel, but honestly I do that and it comes back. So I keep at the dose that seems to keep it under control. The livestock does not seem to mind it so...Ill keep that up.
 
Now for the other 75 gallon. Not only does the breaded stuff come back with less dosing, I now have that non algae, blue green stuff. I mean this stuff is all over everything. So now I need to get this under control. When it gets hold it does with a vengeance.. I have not figure out exactly what causes this stuff.
 
Planted tanks normally get a 40% WC 2x a week. Ill update pics when the lights come on.

 

[Byron]

Now... the two 75 gallon tanks. These suckers are tough. Man I must admit ongoing battle.
 
The 72 bow just seems to love to grow the beard algae. I tried to lessen the dose of excel, but honestly I do that and it comes back. So I keep at the dose that seems to keep it under control. The livestock does not seem to mind it so...Ill keep that up.
 

 
Beard (brush) algae is a sign that the balance of light and nutreints is not present.  As with most any problem, the better solution is not to add chemicals but to find the balance to prevent.
 
Some aquarists do not remember, or perhaps don't fully understand, the issue of adding any substance to an aquarium with live fish.  Everything that enters the water enters the fish, getting into the bloodstream and internal organs.  We cannot usually see any of this, but it is occurring.  So the fish will always be healthier the fewer the additives.
 

Now for the other 75 gallon. Not only does the breaded stuff come back with less dosing, I now have that non algae, blue green stuff. I mean this stuff is all over everything. So now I need to get this under control. When it gets hold it does with a vengeance.. I have not figure out exactly what causes this stuff.
 

 
I assume this blue green stuff is cyanobacteria.  Often considered an algae, but in actuality it is a photosynthetic bacteria.  It is caused by organics in the presence of light.  The only effective way to deal with this is by reducing the organics.

 

[watertown28]

 

Now... the two 75 gallon tanks. These suckers are tough. Man I must admit ongoing battle.
 
The 72 bow just seems to love to grow the beard algae. I tried to lessen the dose of excel, but honestly I do that and it comes back. So I keep at the dose that seems to keep it under control. The livestock does not seem to mind it so...Ill keep that up.
 

 
Beard (brush) algae is a sign that the balance of light and nutreints is not present.  As with most any problem, the better solution is not to add chemicals but to find the balance to prevent.
 
Some aquarists do not remember, or perhaps don't fully understand, the issue of adding any substance to an aquarium with live fish.  Everything that enters the water enters the fish, getting into the bloodstream and internal organs.  We cannot usually see any of this, but it is occurring.  So the fish will always be healthier the fewer the additives.
 
Now for the other 75 gallon. Not only does the breaded stuff come back with less dosing, I now have that non algae, blue green stuff. I mean this stuff is all over everything. So now I need to get this under control. When it gets hold it does with a vengeance.. I have not figure out exactly what causes this stuff.
 

 
I assume this blue green stuff is cyanobacteria.  Often considered an algae, but in actuality it is a photosynthetic bacteria.  It is caused by organics in the presence of light.  The only effective way to deal with this is by reducing the organics.
 


Yeah not really algae though it looks like it is.
 
I wonder what organics I may have in the tank, for I switch out the filter floss at least every other week, and then my NO3 levels are actually low for a planted tank, I did API tests and it showed around 5ppm on it. NH4 of course is zero and so is the NO2.... and that is after 4 days of running so that water was normal time for a water change here but I have not yet....
I have every other week been sucking out on the bottom getting what I can out of there for the organics left in there from food and stuff, but really, I feed the fish maybe once a day, sometimes I skip a day here and there.
 
I guess the first step is again to get the light off the tank again. raise it up a foot or something to see if this resides, but now that the algae is in there, I need a way to get rid of it. To be honest, this one tank I am ready to set up the spare 55 gallon and get that cycling and putting the fish in there and tearing down the 75 gallon to start over.
 
Edit: Now that I think of it, I should try to dose the NO3 then. It seems from some digging that low NO3 seems to help this stuff grow. Now to figure out how to add NO3.... ghaaaaa I think I was doing too many water changes or the plants sucked up all of it cuz of the lights.
 
What you think ?

 

[Byron]

I wonder what organics I may have in the tank, for I switch out the filter floss at least every other week, and then my NO3 levels are actually low for a planted tank, I did API tests and it showed around 5ppm on it. NH4 of course is zero and so is the NO2.... and that is after 4 days of running so that water was normal time for a water change here but I have not yet....
I have every other week been sucking out on the bottom getting what I can out of there for the organics left in there from food and stuff, but really, I feed the fish maybe once a day, sometimes I skip a day here and there.
 

 
Nitrate sounds fine, it is exactly what mine is in my planted tanks.  I had bad cyanobacteria twice, in the same tank, never in the other six.    
 

Edit: Now that I think of it, I should try to dose the NO3 then. It seems from some digging that low NO3 seems to help this stuff grow. Now to figure out how to add NO3.... ghaaaaa I think I was doing too many water changes or the plants sucked up all of it cuz of the lights.
 

 
I once had cyanobacteria appear due to the filter having gone too long.  The second time it was due to the increased organics in the substrate.  I solved it by really cleaning into the substrate during the weekly water changes, and rinsing the filter regularly; every week I would suck out as much as I could, and after several weeks (three months or so), it was suddenly gone.  I also reduced the light on this tank by an hour, because this tank is the shallowest of the three with dual T8 tubes so more light was getting in, and so far it has not come back, and it has now been two years.  I have fairly hefty fish loads in most tanks, and that of course is the source of the organics.  Yet nitrate remains between 0 and 5 ppm.  Higher nitrate could indicate increased organics obviously, but as you can see this is not in itself the cause.
 
There are several "myths" on the cause of cyanobacteria, from low water flow, low nitrate, high nitrate, low CO2, high light...each of these may be relevant at the time, but none are the sole cause.  Organics and nothing more causes cyanobacteria, and you obviously need light.  If the light is too strong, this will induce cyano; I did have it briefly in a 10g tank that sat in front of a west-facing window.  I was experimenting with no filter and no artificial light.  Everything was fine, except of course I couldn't control the light, and cyano appeared on the tank wall next to the window.  Obviously there were organics in the tank, and the light in excess spurred the cyano.
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

 

I wonder what organics I may have in the tank, for I switch out the filter floss at least every other week, and then my NO3 levels are actually low for a planted tank, I did API tests and it showed around 5ppm on it. NH4 of course is zero and so is the NO2.... and that is after 4 days of running so that water was normal time for a water change here but I have not yet....
I have every other week been sucking out on the bottom getting what I can out of there for the organics left in there from food and stuff, but really, I feed the fish maybe once a day, sometimes I skip a day here and there.
 

 
Nitrate sounds fine, it is exactly what mine is in my planted tanks.  I had bad cyanobacteria twice, in the same tank, never in the other six.    
 
Edit: Now that I think of it, I should try to dose the NO3 then. It seems from some digging that low NO3 seems to help this stuff grow. Now to figure out how to add NO3.... ghaaaaa I think I was doing too many water changes or the plants sucked up all of it cuz of the lights.
 

 
I once had cyanobacteria appear due to the filter having gone too long.  The second time it was due to the increased organics in the substrate.  I solved it by really cleaning into the substrate during the weekly water changes, and rinsing the filter regularly; every week I would suck out as much as I could, and after several weeks (three months or so), it was suddenly gone.  I also reduced the light on this tank by an hour, because this tank is the shallowest of the three with dual T8 tubes so more light was getting in, and so far it has not come back, and it has now been two years.  I have fairly hefty fish loads in most tanks, and that of course is the source of the organics.  Yet nitrate remains between 0 and 5 ppm.  Higher nitrate could indicate increased organics obviously, but as you can see this is not in itself the cause.
 
There are several "myths" on the cause of cyanobacteria, from low water flow, low nitrate, high nitrate, low CO2, high light...each of these may be relevant at the time, but none are the sole cause.  Organics and nothing more causes cyanobacteria, and you obviously need light.  If the light is too strong, this will induce cyano; I did have it briefly in a 10g tank that sat in front of a west-facing window.  I was experimenting with no filter and no artificial light.  Everything was fine, except of course I couldn't control the light, and cyano appeared on the tank wall next to the window.  Obviously there were organics in the tank, and the light in excess spurred the cyano.
 
Byron.
 


Hrm, maybe now I think about it the light might be the cause of it. I did lower it back down from where it was hanging back to sitting back on the top of the tank. I did not change the amount of time of course it was on, but the height of course changed. I think that is about the time this stuff started to take hold.
 
The reason why I put it back onto the top, is at the time it seemed easier. I jacked up my tanks... that was a real chore with a already established tank..could not really empty it all out, plus the sand and plants, lets not forget the livestock....raised it about 10 inches, to get it around 24 inches off the ground so I could move the sump under the stand. Well due to the location of the chain hanging down, its hard to reach up because the duct for the heat is right there on the ceiling so I have to kinda twist in a way and reach in a way that is not normal.
 
I have sense raised the chain up a bit... just never lifted the light off. So what I will do is get that going later tomorrow after work.
 
I can now confirm you are right, each tank has its own personality. One can go weeks without a water change and be fine, yet some just cant seem to stay stable enough to do much of anything.

 

[Byron]

One can go weeks without a water change and be fine, yet some just cant seem to stay stable enough to do much of anything.
 

 
I need to comment on this.  Going without water changes does detrimentally affect an aquarium, assuming there are fish present.  There are substances in the water that cannot be seen, cannot be tested for, and can only be removed by water changes.  Things may seem stable, but they are far from it, and the health of the fish is slowly being impacted.

 

[watertown28]

 

One can go weeks without a water change and be fine, yet some just cant seem to stay stable enough to do much of anything.
 

 
I need to comment on this.  Going without water changes does detrimentally affect an aquarium, assuming there are fish present.  There are substances in the water that cannot be seen, cannot be tested for, and can only be removed by water changes.  Things may seem stable, but they are far from it, and the health of the fish is slowly being impacted.
 

Well what I am going to do is a nice clean of the tank. I have raised the lights off the top of the tank now about a foot and see what that does.

 

[watertown28]

Cleaned again with a 40% WC, algae seems to be clearing up, at least not coming back. I did a huge trim on my amazon sword, any leaves with holes, dead, transparent, parts missing all gone. The mystery plant which I have yet figured out what it is, all the messed up leaves, including yellowing leaves are gone. It was a big trim so we will see if they bounce back. I would assume that having issue leaves does no good for the plants anyways.
 
I have also added a smaller powerhead to keep the circulation going.
 
Hey, so I was reading something about having a split up time frame on lights being on/off. Cant recall the exact term, but the jist of it is that you have lights on 4 hours, off 3 hours, then back on 4 hours, then off. Granted, I understand this is not optimal for bulb life, but then again, they are cheap enough to replace anyways. Any thoughts on that?