small tanks
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OP
OP
if that tank was 36inches wide and a bit higher, then yes. Mind you 1 BGK in a tank is pretty boring. Perhaps add a group of guppies for their activity and movement
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cowgirluntamed
Fish Herder
I have this little saying in my mind a lot that I think I will share. More people need to think this way.
Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD.
This goes into a lot of aspects of life, not just fish keeping but I would say it's very relevant.
Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD.
This goes into a lot of aspects of life, not just fish keeping but I would say it's very relevant.
Ok how about this would this be too small for a Betta or a trio of Guppies provided the water was kept pristine?
Penn-Plax Finding Dory Plastic Betta Tank Kit, 0.5-gallon
I am just trying to figure out what you would consider too small. How would you tell a person asking for help that their tank with 3 guppies is too small and they wasted their money.
Penn-Plax Finding Dory Plastic Betta Tank Kit, 0.5-gallon
I am just trying to figure out what you would consider too small. How would you tell a person asking for help that their tank with 3 guppies is too small and they wasted their money.
OP
OP
yes I like tanks to be at least twice as wide as the biggest fish in them. In your BGK tank the fish is 18inches so the tank should be at double that so the fish can turn around without touching the sides.
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I have never seen the Dory/ Nemo tank before. That's cute, did you just buy it? Who is your favorite, Dory or Nemo?
I think that octopus looks pretty mean, I reckon he would eat the guppies
On a serious note, if the Dory/ Nemo tank only holds 0.5gallons (2litres) then it is a bit small for any fish. Better off spending your money on a 20litre plastic bucket and using that instead.
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Whenever someone is asking for my advise to start their first tank I always say get the biggest tank your money and space can afford. You will have more fun and more success that way. And bigger is always better for the fish but there are some cases that I think are a little overboard when telling people their tank is too small.
When I started on this forum years ago I had a dojo loach in a 30 gallon and people said that was way to small for the loach. They were nice about it but I still say that’s wrong, that fish lived for years and got to his max size til I moved out of state and had to give all my fish away to a good LFS.
Also with regards to bettas. Yes they need a heater and a filter to thrive but they can be fine in a five gallon home. In the wild they live in the stalk base of semi emersed plants that aren’t much bigger than a gallon jug of milk. These bodies of water that the fish live in regularly drain out and trap the fish in their tiny puddles and that’s why they evolved their laberynth organ.
And goldfish. I’ve seen members on here who say it’s cruel to keep a goldfish in anything less than 200 gallons. Really? I’m sorry I just don’t agree with that. These fish have been bred for centuries and there are small goldfish breeds that are just fine in 20 gallons. No, I wouldn’t put a koi in anything less than a 1000 gallon pond but shubunkin or moorhead can be quite happy in a small tank so long as it is filtered and maintained.
Yes, when keeping fish we should always do our best to mimic as close as we can their natural environment. But in all honesty, any size tank is “too small” in that regard. I have had a clown pleco in a 55 gallon for three years. They are supposed to get to be about 4-5 inches and this one is still just 2 inches long. I also have two viper shrimp that I got together three years ago and one is a 4 inch brut while the other is still less than 2 inches.
Of course there are cases where it’s cruel to keep a fish in a tank that is too small for it like that poor fish in the earlier video but keeping guppies in a ten gallon or a common pleco in 100? That’s not cruel, it’s just not as nice as keeping them in 200 gallons.
Just my 2 cents. I love this hobby but much of the information that I read from the mags, books and internet articles comes from what I like to call expert amateurs. Hobbyist who aren’t ichthyologists or biologists but just people who have spent many years doing this through their own trial and error. I take their advise because I do think they know what they are talking about. How could they not? I think we should just give people the information about the proper tank size for their fish and let them make a decision.
When I started on this forum years ago I had a dojo loach in a 30 gallon and people said that was way to small for the loach. They were nice about it but I still say that’s wrong, that fish lived for years and got to his max size til I moved out of state and had to give all my fish away to a good LFS.
Also with regards to bettas. Yes they need a heater and a filter to thrive but they can be fine in a five gallon home. In the wild they live in the stalk base of semi emersed plants that aren’t much bigger than a gallon jug of milk. These bodies of water that the fish live in regularly drain out and trap the fish in their tiny puddles and that’s why they evolved their laberynth organ.
And goldfish. I’ve seen members on here who say it’s cruel to keep a goldfish in anything less than 200 gallons. Really? I’m sorry I just don’t agree with that. These fish have been bred for centuries and there are small goldfish breeds that are just fine in 20 gallons. No, I wouldn’t put a koi in anything less than a 1000 gallon pond but shubunkin or moorhead can be quite happy in a small tank so long as it is filtered and maintained.
Yes, when keeping fish we should always do our best to mimic as close as we can their natural environment. But in all honesty, any size tank is “too small” in that regard. I have had a clown pleco in a 55 gallon for three years. They are supposed to get to be about 4-5 inches and this one is still just 2 inches long. I also have two viper shrimp that I got together three years ago and one is a 4 inch brut while the other is still less than 2 inches.
Of course there are cases where it’s cruel to keep a fish in a tank that is too small for it like that poor fish in the earlier video but keeping guppies in a ten gallon or a common pleco in 100? That’s not cruel, it’s just not as nice as keeping them in 200 gallons.
Just my 2 cents. I love this hobby but much of the information that I read from the mags, books and internet articles comes from what I like to call expert amateurs. Hobbyist who aren’t ichthyologists or biologists but just people who have spent many years doing this through their own trial and error. I take their advise because I do think they know what they are talking about. How could they not? I think we should just give people the information about the proper tank size for their fish and let them make a decision.
I must correct some inaccuracies and misunderstandings here in post #15.
No, you have misunderstood what I wrote. Filters cannot deal with everything that is in the water. Re-read what I wrote. I am not going to say it again, it is so obvious.
A fish's expectations are programmed into their DNA. You are not going to change them like this.
False. Fish release pheromones that are read by their own species only, to communicate; food, survival, spawning, danger all trigger various chemical signals. Fish also release allomones which are read by other species; territory, warning, aggression, etc. All of these remain in the water because no filter can remove them. Water changes reduce them. None of these are "harmless" because they build up, and obviously some will stress out other fish which weakens them causing disease.
This is correct about the seasonal changes to some extent, but not accurate that all fish end up in small pools, they do not. And if they do, most of them die. Cardinal tetras are annual fish in their habitats but they can live 10 years in a proper environment aquarium. This is no excuse for inappropriate husbandry in the aquarium.
False. This is simply not the case, period.
Then such people should not be in the hobby if they are not prepared to provide what is required for the fish they want. We were not talking huge tanks, we were talking about providing an adequate sized tank for the fish. This is a fundamental aspect of the hobby.
Wrong. No one can possibly draw such an inference. I could keep a horse in my bedroom, and it would not likely come down with disease. But it would certainly not be reasonably healthy.
No, you have misunderstood what I wrote. Filters cannot deal with everything that is in the water. Re-read what I wrote. I am not going to say it again, it is so obvious.
A fish's expectations are programmed into their DNA. You are not going to change them like this.
False. Fish release pheromones that are read by their own species only, to communicate; food, survival, spawning, danger all trigger various chemical signals. Fish also release allomones which are read by other species; territory, warning, aggression, etc. All of these remain in the water because no filter can remove them. Water changes reduce them. None of these are "harmless" because they build up, and obviously some will stress out other fish which weakens them causing disease.
This is correct about the seasonal changes to some extent, but not accurate that all fish end up in small pools, they do not. And if they do, most of them die. Cardinal tetras are annual fish in their habitats but they can live 10 years in a proper environment aquarium. This is no excuse for inappropriate husbandry in the aquarium.
False. This is simply not the case, period.
Then such people should not be in the hobby if they are not prepared to provide what is required for the fish they want. We were not talking huge tanks, we were talking about providing an adequate sized tank for the fish. This is a fundamental aspect of the hobby.
Wrong. No one can possibly draw such an inference. I could keep a horse in my bedroom, and it would not likely come down with disease. But it would certainly not be reasonably healthy.
OP
OP
You said "sedate fish will respirate more slowly," Did you mean respire because fish can't respirate each other.
Filters containing colonies of beneficial filter bacteria will remove any ammonia & nitrite produced by big, small, slow or active fishes, and if the filter contains carbon, that will absorb pheromones, hormones & allomones. And good old fashioned water changes and gravel cleans will remove rotting organic matter (fish poop) from the substrate and ammonia, nitrite & nitrates, and pheromones, hormones & allomones from the tank water.
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Domesticated animals develop genetic variations that differ from their wild counterparts after only 10 generations of captive breeding. Guppies have been bred for over 50 years and look nothing like their wild counterparts. Any expectations that were programmed into Guppies was lost or changed last century. Domestic Guppies do not look like or behave like wild Guppies because their DNA has changed from hybridisation and inbreeding over the last 50+ years. Domestic Guppies eat and breed, food is what they expect from their owners.
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Domesticated fishes use visual clues to feed and when one fish heads to the surface the others see that happen and join in. This is clearly seen when our fish swim up to the glass when they see us walking by. They are waiting for food. They are not going to release pheromones into the water saying food when they can see us quite clearly through the glass. I highly doubt any common domesticated fish would produce food pheromones in an aquarium. Wild caught fishes probably do but not domestic Guppies.
There are not normally any dangers in our aquariums, unless you drop a goldfish into an Oscar tank. And as for territorial disputes, fish use various body displays to warn other fishes to stay away. Corals and plants release chemicals to say go away, but fish usually just chase each other away.
Fish have a very good sense of smell and if a fish is releasing chemicals into the water a predator can smell it and potentially track the fish down and eat it.
And any hormones, pheromones, etc will be diluted out by water changes, so unless you leave a tank for months without water changes, saying these things will harm fish is simply over exaggeration.
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I didn't say ALL fish end up in shallow pools. I said "Unless wild fish manage to remain in a large deep waterbody like a river, they do end up in small confined puddles of water..." And yes most get eaten by predators or they dry up and die due to lack of water.
I'm unsure why you mention inappropriate husbandry when nobody mentioned that and this is about tank size/ water volume.
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When was the last time you went to the beach or looked in a river? I can assure you most waterways around cities and towns and even in remote areas, are polluted with human rubbish and waste and numerous chemicals. I surveyed waterways around Western Australia for 20years and the crap I found in rivers that were 100km from the nearest town was incredible. I found bodies and body parts (human and animal), plastic products, cars and car parts, agricultural chemicals, boxes, bags, clothing, you name it, I found it in the water and on the banks. And the oceans are no better. The local beach near me is 20km from the nearest town (80km from the nearest city) and the seawater is brown from pollution and there is no fish or other lifeforms in the rock pools around here. And I have not seen many if any life forms in rock pools along the coast for more than 10years.
Pretty much every waterway humans have access to, will be polluted to some degree.
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Colin_T said: ↑
Yes it is better to have a nice large tank for fish, but as mentioned in my original post, not everyone has the finances to afford a big tank, nor does everyone have room for a big tank. And not everyone wants a big tank.
Byron said:
Then such people should not be in the hobby if they are not prepared to provide what is required for the fish they want. We were not talking huge tanks, we were talking about providing an adequate sized tank for the fish. This is a fundamental aspect of the hobby.
A comment like that makes you sound like a rich arrogant person who thinks unless you have money you can't keep fish.
How big was the first fish tank you bought and how much money did you have to spend on it?
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If you had a horse living in your bedroom, besides calling the ASPCA and getting you some counselling, it would develop health issues (including heart disease) because it would not be able to exercise, its crap would contaminate the room, rodents and flies would breed and infect the horse, and it would get fat and founder and eventually it would be shot.
Also it would break the bed when breeding and maybe even hit its head on the roof, depending on if it was doing missionary or horsie style.
A 1 inch Guppy in a 12 inch square tank has a lot more room than a horse in a standard bedroom. And I can infer that if a fish is breeding and not getting sick then it is reasonably healthy because sick animals do not breed.
Filters containing colonies of beneficial filter bacteria will remove any ammonia & nitrite produced by big, small, slow or active fishes, and if the filter contains carbon, that will absorb pheromones, hormones & allomones. And good old fashioned water changes and gravel cleans will remove rotting organic matter (fish poop) from the substrate and ammonia, nitrite & nitrates, and pheromones, hormones & allomones from the tank water.
--------------------
Domesticated animals develop genetic variations that differ from their wild counterparts after only 10 generations of captive breeding. Guppies have been bred for over 50 years and look nothing like their wild counterparts. Any expectations that were programmed into Guppies was lost or changed last century. Domestic Guppies do not look like or behave like wild Guppies because their DNA has changed from hybridisation and inbreeding over the last 50+ years. Domestic Guppies eat and breed, food is what they expect from their owners.
--------------------
Domesticated fishes use visual clues to feed and when one fish heads to the surface the others see that happen and join in. This is clearly seen when our fish swim up to the glass when they see us walking by. They are waiting for food. They are not going to release pheromones into the water saying food when they can see us quite clearly through the glass. I highly doubt any common domesticated fish would produce food pheromones in an aquarium. Wild caught fishes probably do but not domestic Guppies.
There are not normally any dangers in our aquariums, unless you drop a goldfish into an Oscar tank. And as for territorial disputes, fish use various body displays to warn other fishes to stay away. Corals and plants release chemicals to say go away, but fish usually just chase each other away.
Fish have a very good sense of smell and if a fish is releasing chemicals into the water a predator can smell it and potentially track the fish down and eat it.
And any hormones, pheromones, etc will be diluted out by water changes, so unless you leave a tank for months without water changes, saying these things will harm fish is simply over exaggeration.
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I didn't say ALL fish end up in shallow pools. I said "Unless wild fish manage to remain in a large deep waterbody like a river, they do end up in small confined puddles of water..." And yes most get eaten by predators or they dry up and die due to lack of water.
I'm unsure why you mention inappropriate husbandry when nobody mentioned that and this is about tank size/ water volume.
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When was the last time you went to the beach or looked in a river? I can assure you most waterways around cities and towns and even in remote areas, are polluted with human rubbish and waste and numerous chemicals. I surveyed waterways around Western Australia for 20years and the crap I found in rivers that were 100km from the nearest town was incredible. I found bodies and body parts (human and animal), plastic products, cars and car parts, agricultural chemicals, boxes, bags, clothing, you name it, I found it in the water and on the banks. And the oceans are no better. The local beach near me is 20km from the nearest town (80km from the nearest city) and the seawater is brown from pollution and there is no fish or other lifeforms in the rock pools around here. And I have not seen many if any life forms in rock pools along the coast for more than 10years.
Pretty much every waterway humans have access to, will be polluted to some degree.
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Colin_T said: ↑
Yes it is better to have a nice large tank for fish, but as mentioned in my original post, not everyone has the finances to afford a big tank, nor does everyone have room for a big tank. And not everyone wants a big tank.
Byron said:
Then such people should not be in the hobby if they are not prepared to provide what is required for the fish they want. We were not talking huge tanks, we were talking about providing an adequate sized tank for the fish. This is a fundamental aspect of the hobby.
A comment like that makes you sound like a rich arrogant person who thinks unless you have money you can't keep fish.
How big was the first fish tank you bought and how much money did you have to spend on it?
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If you had a horse living in your bedroom, besides calling the ASPCA and getting you some counselling, it would develop health issues (including heart disease) because it would not be able to exercise, its crap would contaminate the room, rodents and flies would breed and infect the horse, and it would get fat and founder and eventually it would be shot.
Also it would break the bed when breeding and maybe even hit its head on the roof, depending on if it was doing missionary or horsie style.
A 1 inch Guppy in a 12 inch square tank has a lot more room than a horse in a standard bedroom. And I can infer that if a fish is breeding and not getting sick then it is reasonably healthy because sick animals do not breed.
Respiration will be slower with sedate fish, and larger fish, than with more active fish and smaller fish. The rate of respiration is what I am talking about. It has to do with the fish's physiology and metabolism, not filters.
Filters even with carbon will not do all that needs to be done, which only fresh water can accomplish. And nature provides this.
Fish are not domesticated. As for the rest of this, I would like to see you argue it with an ichthyologist. You are not going to change a fish's DNA by tank breeding.
The rest of your comments on pheromones and allomones is not accurate. I won't argue scientific fact, it is a waste of time.
Keeping a fish in too small a tank is inappropriate husbandry. I would have thought that obvious to most of us.
And I stand by my comment, which is shared by all experienced members on this forum, that if you cannot provide reasonable care for fish you should not have them. It has nothing to do with wealth [that was unbelievable...].
This is not true. Many, many animals (and plants) will breed under extreme stress, and stress may even be a factor in triggering breeding, in some cases. It makes perfect evolutionary sense; if you're going to die, you might was well take the opportunity to spread your genes around as much as possible first, in the hopes that at least some of your offspring will make it through the crisis.
P.S; I have an extremely limited budget; nearly all my tanks are second hand and very tatty; I just don't, ever, keep fish that I don't have room for. It's not difficult, and I honestly don't think any reasonable argument can be put forward in defence of it.
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AbbeysDad
Fish Gatherer
Not really.
I think the trouble is that fish just don't get the respect they deserve. Even though I myself have been in the hobby many years, I'm sad when I lose a fish, but nothing like the grief I'd have if our dog passed - she's like another child to us!
Too many people get into the hobby not realizing the responsibility and requirements of fishkeeping. And this not only includes understanding the nitrogen cycle and filter/tank maintenance, but extends to the correct numbers and/or potential sizes of fish for the size tank they have.
All points and counter points aside, confining too many fish or too large a fish in too small a tank is just plain cruel. There really should be no debate on this among serious hobbyists.
OP
OP
Fluttermoth, birds, dogs, cats & primates (including people) don't breed when under stress, neither do rodents. Do you have any examples of animals that do breed when under extreme stress?
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Byron, Guppies are domesticated because they have been bred in captivity for generations and are used by humans for entertainment. And the captive bred ones have different dna to wild guppies because their ancestors where hybridised with another poeciliid species.
Dogs have different dna to wolves yet they evolved from wolves. Guppies have been bred for so many generations and they have evolved too.
And you didn't answer my question about how big your first tank was.
How big was the first fish tank you bought and how much money did you have to spend on it?
Where you 12 years old and used all your savings to buy the biggest tank you could afford, or did you have a job and plenty of spare cash to buy a huge complete setup with all the extras?
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Byron, Guppies are domesticated because they have been bred in captivity for generations and are used by humans for entertainment. And the captive bred ones have different dna to wild guppies because their ancestors where hybridised with another poeciliid species.
Dogs have different dna to wolves yet they evolved from wolves. Guppies have been bred for so many generations and they have evolved too.
And you didn't answer my question about how big your first tank was.
How big was the first fish tank you bought and how much money did you have to spend on it?
Where you 12 years old and used all your savings to buy the biggest tank you could afford, or did you have a job and plenty of spare cash to buy a huge complete setup with all the extras?
I agree. Its not a debate - its an argument and serving no useful purpose.
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