Not enough time for a fishless cycle

Nelly

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Hi,

I am new to fish keeping and am taking it up because my 4 year old is fascinated by fish and wanted to get some for his birthday (which is next week). When I spoke to the person in the shop, they said a tank should be set up at least 24 hours before the fish go in but now I've read that it should be cycled before the fish go in and that would take 4-8 weeks.

Since my son's birthday is next week, I don't have time to do a full fishless cycle before getting the fish but would it be worth setting it up as soon as possible so it's part way through the cycle or would that be worse for the fish than going into an un-cycled tank? If it's relevant, we're getting 3 mollies in a 58L tank and are intending to plant live plants into the tank as well.

Thank you in advance for any help and advice you can give me!
Nel
 
Hi,

I am new to fish keeping and am taking it up because my 4 year old is fascinated by fish and wanted to get some for his birthday (which is next week). When I spoke to the person in the shop, they said a tank should be set up at least 24 hours before the fish go in but now I've read that it should be cycled before the fish go in and that would take 4-8 weeks.

Since my son's birthday is next week, I don't have time to do a full fishless cycle before getting the fish but would it be worth setting it up as soon as possible so it's part way through the cycle or would that be worse for the fish than going into an un-cycled tank? If it's relevant, we're getting 3 mollies in a 58L tank and are intending to plant live plants into the tank as well.

Thank you in advance for any help and advice you can give me!
Nel
i think if you put the live plants in and add some ammonia that will speed the cycle up
 
Hi Nel and welcome to the forum :)

As a general rule it is better for the fish if you cycle the filters before adding fish. This means the fish are not subjected to harmful substances like ammonia and nitrite. However, if you are willing to test the water and do regular water changes, you can have fish in the tank while it cycles.

You get the aquarium and take it home. Don't have anything heavy in the tank while you are transporting it home. Put the aquarium on a blanket while it's in the car to help cushion the base. When you get the tank home rinse it out with tap water and then put it on a piece of polystyrene foam and have that on a hard flat level surface.

Go and buy a couple of new buckets and use a permanent marker to write "FISH ONLY" on the buckets. Use those buckets for the fish tank and nothing else.

Wash the gravel in a clean bucket of water. Take the bucket outside onto the lawn. Have a couple of inches of gravel in the bottom of a 10-20 litre bucket. Use a garden hose to squirt the gravel in the bucket. When the bucket is about half full of water, tip the water out and squirt more water in. Do this 4 or 5 times for each lot of gravel you clean. When the gravel is clean, put it in the aquarium.

After the gravel has been added to the tank, you can put some ornaments in and fill it about 3/4 full with tap water. Add a dechlorinating agent (water conditioner) to remove the chlorine/ chloramine from the tap water. Then set up the filter and heater. You can also add any live plants now and then top up the tank so it is an inch or two below the top and turn the light on.

You can contact your water supply company via telephone or website, to find out if they add chlorine or chloramine. Most water conditioners recommend using a double dose for chloramine.

-------------------
When you are talking to the water company, you can ask them what the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and pH of your water is. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).

Depending on what the GH of your water is, will determine what fish you should keep.

Angelfish, most tetras, barbs, Bettas, gouramis, rasbora, Corydoras and small species of suckermouth catfish all occur in soft water (GH below 150ppm) and a pH below 7.0.

Livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), rainbowfish and goldfish occur in medium hard water with a GH around 200-250ppm and a pH above 7.0.

If you have very hard water (GH above 300ppm) then look at African Rift Lake cichlids, or use distilled or reverse osmosis water to reduce the GH and keep fishes from softer water.

Your tank is not really big enough for mollies and platies or guppies would be a better choice. Platies are generally healthier than guppies and have bright colours than female guppies, so might be a better choice for your child. Try to get all male or all female platies so there is less stress from males trying to breed with females.

Male platies, guppies, swordtails and mollies have a long straight anal (bottom) fin. Females have a fan or triangle shaped anal fin.

Having said this, find out what the pH, GH and KH are before choosing any fish.

-------------------
After the tank has been set up, let it run for at least a couple of days, preferably a week. Then get some fish. You should also buy a bottle of liquid filter bacteria supplement. It is beneficial filter bacteria in a bottle and you add it to the tank on a regular basis to help get the filter cycled quicker. I recommend adding a double dose every day for a week, then pour the remaining contents into the tank. Try to add the bacteria near the filter so it gets drawn into the filter where it belongs.
Add the bacteria supplement after you add the fish. The bacteria need the ammonia produced by the fish, to grow.

Regarding the filter, there are several types available including air operated and power filters. Air operated filters require and air pump to pump air into the water and this causes bubbles to rise up thru a tube in the filter. Water gets drawn up with the bubbles. Air pumps can be noisy and a lot of people don't like them because of that. But they are cheaper than power filters and do work.

Power filters have an electric motor sealed in a plastic resin to protect the components and stop them going zap. They have a plastic case that contains filter media like sponges, and the water flows through the media and is pumped around the tank. They are generally quiet although they do produce a slight splashing noise if the outlet is above the water level in the tank. Power filters cost a bit more and usually produce a strong current in the tank, but most are good filters.

If you get a power filter, get one that does not contain filter pads or cartridges that need changing every month. Find a filter that has sponge, maybe ceramic beads and carbon. You don't need the carbon or ceramic beads and I prefer to just have sponges. But most companies put carbon and ceramic beads in their filters. You can normally buy extra sponges for most power filters.

-------------------
HAVING FISH IN THE TANK WHILE IT CYCLES.
If you want to do a fish in cycle, add 3 or 4 fish and feed them 2-3 times a week. Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate 4-8 hours after feeding. You should also monitor the ammonia and nitrite levels and do a 75% water change any day you have an ammonia or nitrite reading above 0ppm.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

After the filter has cycled (usually between 4-6 weeks), you can feed the fish each day and do a 75% water change and gravel clean once a week.

If you have some live plants in the tank, they will help keep the water cleaner and keep the ammonia levels lower so there is less stress on the fish. Floating plants are the best for removing ammonia and Water Sprite (Ceratopteris thalictroides/ cornuta) is a good plant to start with. It floats on the surface, grows rapidly and can be planted in the gravel.

When you add the bottled filter bacteria, add it after you do a water change.

-------------------
CLEANING THE FILTER
If you get a power filter or an air operated sponge filter do not clean it for the first 6-8 weeks, otherwise you can wash out the good filter bacteria and slow the cycling process. After that period, you can clean the filter once a month, or more often if it gets dirty quickly.

To clean a sponge or power filter, squeeze/ wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn.

Rinse the filter case and motor under tap water.

Wash the impellor assembly (magnet with 3 or 4 plastic blades on one end) under tap water. Be careful when removing impellors because some have a ceramic shaft that goes through the middle of them and this can break if you are rough with them. Most will also have a rubber grommet on each end of the impellor shaft and some have a plastic washer under the rubber grommet. Don't lose these parts. You can wipe them with a tissue or paper towel, or rinse them under tap water. If you rinse under tap water, put the items in a sieve and put that under the tap water so the parts don't get washed down the drain.

Reassemble the filter and get it running.

If you are confused about different filters, find out what is available at the pet shop and post their names and details on here and we can recommend a filter for the tank.

The shop should also be able to show you how to take the filter apart and put it back together.
 
Last edited:
Hi Nel and welcome to the forum :)

As a general rule it is better for the fish if you cycle the filters before adding fish. This means the fish are not subjected to harmful substances like ammonia and nitrite. However, if you are willing to test the water and do regular water changes, you can have fish in the tank while it cycles.

You get the aquarium and take it home. Don't have anything heavy in the tank while you are transporting it home. Put the aquarium on a blanket while it's in the car to help cushion the base. When you get the tank home rinse it out with tap water and then put it on a piece of polystyrene foam and have that on a hard flat level surface.

Go and buy a couple of new buckets and use a permanent marker to write "FISH ONLY" on the buckets. Use those buckets for the fish tank and nothing else.

Wash the gravel in a clean bucket of water. Take the bucket outside onto the lawn. Have a couple of inches of gravel in the bottom of a 10-20 litre bucket. Use a garden hose to squirt the gravel in the bucket. When the bucket is about half full of water, tip the water out and squirt more water in. Do this 4 or 5 times for each lot of gravel you clean. When the gravel is clean, put it in the aquarium.

After the gravel has been added to the tank, you can put some ornaments in and fill it about 3/4 full with tap water. Add a dechlorinating agent (water conditioner) to remove the chlorine/ chloramine from the tap water. Then set up the filter and heater. You can also add any live plants now and then top up the tank so it is an inch or two below the top and turn the light on.

You can contact your water supply company via telephone or website, to find out if they add chlorine or chloramine. Most water conditioners recommend using a double dose for chloramine.

-------------------
When you are talking to the water company, you can ask them what the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and pH of your water is. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).

Depending on what the GH of your water is, will determine what fish you should keep.

Angelfish, most tetras, barbs, Bettas, gouramis, rasbora, Corydoras and small species of suckermouth catfish all occur in soft water (GH below 150ppm) and a pH below 7.0.

Livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), rainbowfish and goldfish occur in medium hard water with a GH around 200-250ppm and a pH above 7.0.

If you have very hard water (GH above 300ppm) then look at African Rift Lake cichlids, or use distilled or reverse osmosis water to reduce the GH and keep fishes from softer water.

Your tank is not really big enough for mollies and platies or guppies would be a better choice. Platies are generally healthier than guppies and have bright colours than female guppies, so might be a better choice for your child. Try to get all male or all female platies so there is less stress from males trying to breed with females.

Male platies, guppies, swordtails and mollies have a long straight anal (bottom) fin. Females have a fan or triangle shaped anal fin.

Having said this, find out what the pH, GH and KH are before choosing any fish.

-------------------
After the tank has been set up, let it run for at least a couple of days, preferably a week. Then get some fish. You should also buy a bottle of liquid filter bacteria supplement. It is beneficial filter bacteria in a bottle and you add it to the tank on a regular basis to help get the filter cycled quicker. I recommend adding a double dose every day for a week, then pour the remaining contents into the tank. Try to add the bacteria near the filter so it gets drawn into the filter where it belongs.

regarding the filter, there are several types available including air operated and power filters. Air operated filters require and air pump to pump air into the water and this causes bubbles to rise up thru a tube in the filter. Water gets drawn up with the bubbles. Air pumps can be noisy and a lot of people don't like them because of that. But they are cheaper than power filters and do work.

Power filters have an electric motor sealed in a plastic resin to protect the components and stop them going zap. They have a plastic case that contains filter media like sponges, and the water flows through the media and is pumped around the tank. They are generally quiet although they do produce a slight splashing noise if the outlet is above the water level in the tank. Power filters cost a bit more and usually produce a strong current in the tank, but most are good filters.

If you get a power filter, get one that does not contain filter pads or cartridges that need changing every month. Find a filter that has sponge, maybe ceramic beads and carbon. You don't need the carbon or ceramic beads and I prefer to just have sponges. But most companies put carbon and ceramic beads in their filters. You can normally buy extra sponges for most power filters.

-------------------
HAVING FISH IN THE TANK WHILE IT CYCLES.
If you want to do a fish in cycle, add 3 or 4 fish and feed them 2-3 times a week. Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate 4-8 hours after feeding. You should also monitor the ammonia and nitrite levels and do a 75% water change any day you have an ammonia or nitrite reading above 0ppm.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

After the filter has cycled (usually between 4-6 weeks), you can feed the fish each day and do a 75% water change and gravel clean once a week.

If you have some live plants in the tank, they will help keep the water cleaner and keep the ammonia levels lower so there is less stress on the fish. Floating plants are the best for removing ammonia and Water Sprite (Ceratopteris thalictroides/ cornuta) is a good plant to start with. It floats on the surface, grows rapidly and can be planted in the gravel.

When you add the bottled filter bacteria, add it after you do a water change.

-------------------
CLEANING THE FILTER
If you get a power filter or an air operated sponge filter do not clean it for the first 6-8 weeks, otherwise you can wash out the good filter bacteria and slow the cycling process. After that period, you can clean the filter once a month, or more often if it gets dirty quickly.

To clean a sponge or power filter, squeeze/ wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn.

Rinse the filter case and motor under tap water.

Wash the impellor assembly (magnet with 3 or 4 plastic blades on one end) under tap water. Be careful when removing impellors because some have a ceramic shaft that goes through the middle of them and this can break if you are rough with them. Most will also have a rubber grommet on each end of the impellor shaft and some have a plastic washer under the rubber grommet. Don't lose these parts. You can wipe them with a tissue or paper towel, or rinse them under tap water. If you rinse under tap water, put the items in a sieve and put that under the tap water so the parts don't get washed down the drain.

Reassemble the filter and get it running.

If you are confused about different filters, find out what is available at the pet shop and post their names and details on here and we can recommend a filter for the tank.

The shop should also be able to show you how to take the filter apart and put it back together.
Wow! Thank you for all of the useful tips. We were looking at mollies because the shop suggested three of them would be fine in that size of tank and (apparently) they would be ok living in a two or three (which was more what my son wanted than a shoal of fish which, for example guppies would need to be in, but I defer to your (obviously far more extensive) knowledge! I'll find out about our water quality today and we'll get it set up tomorrow - then at least it'll have a week before the fish go in. Would platies be ok in a two or three?

I'm sure I will make mistakes (unfortunately an inevitability when learning anything) but I will do my best. Thank you for the advice and information!
 
Common livebearers like mollies, guppies, platies and swordtails live in groups of males or females. There is a pecking order with a dominant male or dominant female have a close group of friends and the group bully subordinate fish to stop them moving up the pecking order. This means you can keep 2, 3 or 4 of these fish in a tank and they are usually fine together. Sometimes two fish will argue and fight and if it continues for more than a couple of days, then one of the fish should be removed.

Normal mollies can reach 4-5 inches long and sailfin mollies can get even bigger. These fish need a tank that is at least 3 feet long.

Platies grow to about 2 inches and are much more suited to the smaller tank. I would get 3 or 4 female or male platies (not both sexes). They come in a huge range of colours, are reasonably tough, and 4 of them will fit in your tank.
 
Great, I will have a look at those. The water company website says that the water in our area is moderately hard (66mg/L calcium, 176mg/L calcium carbonate, which, if I remember any chemistry at all, indicates it should have a slightly higher pH) so that should be ok for Platies/mollies/guppies?

Also, the person in the shop suggested balloon mollies which, apparently are slightly smaller but from doing some reading, it seems like they're the equivalent of buying an over-bred dog, which I am not keen to do. Is that accurate?
 
Great, I will have a look at those. The water company website says that the water in our area is moderately hard (66mg/L calcium, 176mg/L calcium carbonate, which, if I remember any chemistry at all, indicates it should have a slightly higher pH) so that should be ok for Platies/mollies/guppies?

Also, the person in the shop suggested balloon mollies which, apparently are slightly smaller but from doing some reading, it seems like they're the equivalent of buying an over-bred dog, which I am not keen to do. Is that accurate?
Hi yes that’s a great description of balloon fish line bred for their appearance rather than the animal health. I’d go for platys in this tank smaller than mollies and a bit more chilled out I think the colours on platys are better too.

Wills
 
(66mg/L calcium, 176mg/L calcium carbonate
Is that for general hardness (GH) or carbonate hardness (KH)?

there is a calculator/ converter at the bottom of the forum page that lets you convert different things.

------------------
Balloon mollies should be avoided at all cost and so should all balloon fish. These are man made atrocities where the fish have produced mutant offspring that are deformed and shorter in the body. The breeders then inbreed the fish to make it even shorter.

The balloon fish's internal organs have been squished up and this puts pressure on all the organs including the heart and digestive tract.

Balloon fish generally die from internal complications and at a much younger age than their normal shaped relatives.

Nobody should buy balloon fish.
 
Fill your tank with water, put in a huge amount of plant, when it starts growing, add fish (a few at a time).
 
A tank never "cycles" it is always cycling, what you need to do is to set up your tank and get it to a point where it can sustain life. The best indication of that is once plants start to grow the tank can support life, a little at a time.
 
The water company website says that the water in our area is moderately hard (66mg/L calcium, 176mg/L calcium carbonate,
Water company words always make water sound harder than it really is.
Your hardness is 176 ppm (ppm is the same as mg/l calcium carbonate) = 10 dH. Fish profiles use one or other of those units.

This is middling hardness, neither soft nor hard. It is too soft for mollies, for example. But there are many small shoaling fish which would be suitable.


You could do a plant cycle rather than a fishless cycle. This involves planting fast growing plants then waiting a couple of weeks till you are sure the plants are growing rather than about to die, then getting fish - but not all the fish, at once, a few at a time. it is useful to take a photo of the tank as soon as it's been planted so you have something to compare the plants to. Plants take up ammonia faster than bacteria and they don't turn it into nitrite or nitrate. I once quarantined fish in a small tank with no bacteria, just elodea stems left to float and water sprite taken form my main tank.
Plants like elodea, limnophila, floating plants such as water sprite are all fast growers. Other members will have more suggestions for both plants and fish.
 
I've never had time for a fishless cycle, never bought ammonia and only ever crashed one new tank, 40 years ago. I would get plants in, unrinsed, as they are a good source of the bacteria you need. And here is where the old school advice gets weak. You can then have one or two small fish. That's all. And in spite of the urge to feed (it's fun), you feed once a day, very little. Take a day in the week and don't feed at all.
Change maybe 25% twice a week, using dechlorinated water so you don't slow the growth of the bacteria. That phase is a solid month. You can get a test kit if you want - they are expensive but many people like to watch the numbers. They change nothing, and you would be doing the exact same water change, light stocking and light feeding of a tank with plants without one. My last test kit expired sometime last century and I haven't missed it - I've probably started 20 tanks since then.
After a month, you can slowly build up your group. For small tetras in a 30L, I would go 2, a month, 2 3 weeks, 2, and stop.
Change pet stores. The person there was probably sincere, but it's a minimum wage job in most countries, and there is no incentive to learn. You sell fish one week and phones the next, and what you say depends on what the boss trains you to say.
Using mollies is a trick from the 1950s (I am not joking), as is waiting 24 hours (dechlorinators weren't readily available back then). Like any human pastime, aquariums have a culture and it is senselessly conservative. As you gain experience, if you enjoy this, be a little skeptical of the lore.
Your balloon mollies would probably have died young, and the clerk would be trained to blame the cycle. He or she would probably sincerely believe it. The spinal deformity that shortens the body is scoliosis, and I can tell you from experience with a very small area of my own spine affected - it hurts. Fish have a developed nervous system. It also compresses their intestines, and causes blockages. That and the stress of such a difficult health situation usually does them in quickly in a new tank. It's not what a kid should experience....
All balloon mutation fish have shorter and probably difficult lives. If I were king of the world, their sale would be banned as cruelty breeding.
Tetras would do well in that tank, if they were smaller species. It's not a big aquarium. A lone male Betta splendens could thrive - they have the advantage as air breathing fish from swamps to be more tolerant of ammonia than gill breathers, who get burned by it.
Go to another store and take notes of what fish you think would appeal, then ask about them specifically. There are a lot of people who really know their stuff here who can give you details on the fish that catch your eye. If it all works, those fish will thrive for years, so it's good to start with fish you want for what they are, rather than what someone else wants to sell you.
 
Don't add ammonia if you are doing a fish in cycle because you will kill the fish.

Live plants are great but ammonia is poisonous to fish and all major life on this planet.
Oh i meant to speed up a no fish cycle
If there is fish fish already provide ammonia
 

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