Need advice on tiger barbs

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Bandalyn

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Hello,

I've recently gotten a new 30g tank and have been trying to keep tiger barbs but they all die within a few days.

My water levels are safe and only the tiger barbs are dying. I've had the tank for about 6 weeks now and I can't seem to keep them alive.

I also have 1 rainbow shark and one dwarf gourami in the tank and both are doing fine.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
 
Welcome to TFF. :hi:

There are a couple of possibilities, but we will need more info.

How long has this "new" tank been running? Did you cycle it, and if yes, how?

What are the numbers for the "safe" water levels? You need to know the parameters which are the GH (general or total hardness), pH and temperature. The GH of your source water (tap presumably) is what we/you need. The conditions, meaning ammonia, nitrite, nitrate...if you tested can you post the numbers?

While waiting for the above...Tiger Barbs will not work with gourami, and the Rainbow shark might be a problem too. So you should not get any more TB, once we have found the likely issue and fixed that.
 
Hi and welcome to the forum :)

Besides what Byron has said, if you can post a picture of the fish, it might help.

If you don't have test kits to check the water, take a sample of aquarium water to the local pet shop and ask them to test it. Write down the results when they do the test and post them here. The results should be something like: Ammonia 0.25; Nitrite 0.5; Nitrate 25; pH 7.6; GH 150ppm (or might be dgh).
 
If you don't have test kits to check the water, take a sample of aquarium water to the local pet shop and ask them to test it. Write down the results when they do the test and post them here. The results should be something like: Ammonia 0.25; Nitrite 0.5; Nitrate 25; pH 7.6; GH 150ppm (or might be dgh).

Just to clarify...Colin doesn't mean these exact numbers are what you must have, he was just giving an example of the tests...at least I hope so. ;)
 
Hi,

Thanks for responding. I'm still pretty new at this and this tank has been a disaster!

I've had the tank for about 6 weeks. My rainbow shark was attacking my tetras and I had to get him out quick so I got this new won.

I cycled it for 2 weeks before putting the other fish in. I used a water conditioner they suggested at the store bit I don't remember what it was. I also used microb lift special blend.

I tested the water before adding the fish and everything was fine. I don't have those numbers anymore. The tiger barbs all died within a few days.

I restored the water and the nitrites were very high (0.5). Ammonia was 0.5. I did a 25 % water change and added aquarium salts. Shortly after this one of the dwarf gouramis died and I moved the other one to another tank.

I tested the water every few days until the nitrites went down. I also took a water sample to the pet store and they said it was fine. I then added 3 tiger barbs and they did within a few days.

I don't have the results of the water sample from the shop or the one I did before buying the barbs but I retested the water today.

Latest water sample:

pH: 7.6. Tap water pH: 6.6

High range pH: 7.8. Tap water: 7.4

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 0

Ammonia: 0.25

GH: 150. Tap water GH: 150

Temp 76-78 degrees Fahrenheit.

Thanks for your help! ☺

Brandi
 
Hi and welcome to the forum :)

Besides what Byron has said, if you can post a picture of the fish, it might help.

Unfortunately I don't have any pictures. They all died . But they were Glofish® tiger barbs if that helps. I also couldn't see and damage to the fins, discoloration or bloating but I definitely could have missed it.
 
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I would say it was probably water quality. Ammonia or nitrite will both kill fish very quickly especially ammonia in alkaline water (pH above 7.0). This is the most common cause of death in aquarium fish, and for a lot of them to die suddenly would suggest a water quality issue.

If you have an ammonia reading, reduce feeding to once every second day and do a 75% water change and complete gravel clean each day until you no longer have an ammonia or nitrite reading. :)
 
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Two possible causes for the TB dying come to mind now that we have your data. It might have been related to cycling; I should have asked how many barbs were added together, as this can cause a sudden rise in ammonia and/or nitrite, and newly acquired fish would be under severe stress from the fact of being newly added so they tend to succumb first in such a situation. However, your info on the rainbow shark leads me to think that this is the problem. If it attacked tetras, it will almost certainly attack similar shoaling fish like barbs. The Rainbow is generally milder than the close relative the Red Tail Shark which can be downright vicious and for some unknown reason often takes a real dislike to vertically-striped fish like TB. Perhaps your Rainbow is not a very sociable fish. Given the tetra issue, I would remove the shark, back to the store if at all possible, as a fish that shows such tendencies is not ever going to change, it is part of its behavioural make-up. The gourami being a sedate single fish is not likely to inflame the shark like a group of more active fish will do.

[EDIT: Colin posted as I was typing, and he also notes the "mini-cycle" issue, but I still think the shark is involved. But it could also be both.]

While I'm here, to the other test numbers, no problems there. GH at 150 I assume is in mg/l or ppm (these two are the same) which equates to 8 dGH, moderately soft. Fine for fish species that prefer softer water, such as those who have so far acquired/tried. Avoid all livebearers as there is insufficient mineral in this water for their health long-term.

On the pH, the change is likely due to dissolved CO2 in the tap water. When testing tap water pH you need to ensure any CO2 is gassed out; easy way is to let a glass of tap water sit 24 hours and then test pH. I would expect it to be higher, closer to the tank pH. Although, if you have calcareous substances like gravel made of a calcareous rock, or rock the same, this could raise the pH. Do the CO2 out-gas test of the tap water and see if it is closer to the 7.6, and that will tell you/us which.

Also on pH, only use one test for consistency. As you have seen, they vary. In your case, the normal range pH test is the one to stay with. Another thing, when testing tank water for pH, you do not need to out-gas, but you should always test tank water at the same time of day. The pH will vary diurnally, being lowest (more acidic) in the early morning after darkness, and highest in the late day. This is normal and not an issue, but if you are monitoring pH you want to have a more reliable accuracy day to day, and testing at the same time of day achieves this. And all tests should be prior to a water change rather than after so you get a better idea of what is occurring in the aquarium.
 
Hi and thank again! I wish I came here 2 months ago you guys really know your stuff.

You were right about the pH. I did do a water change a few days ago. I retested after letting the tap water sit in a cup. My tank pH is now 7.2 and the tap water was 7.0.

I did suspect the rainbow shark as well however I can't return Barka (rainbow shark). I've had him for 9 months so I don't think they would take him lol.

The aggression started 2 months ago. He had grown and by roommate was actually the one who told me about the chasing. I assumed it was more due to over crowding in the tank. The tetra tank is only 20 g. He usually stays to himself unless another fish swims to close to his cave. Then he chases them away.

I thought the first group of TB died due to improper cycling and adding too many fish too fast. I added 6 TB. I had an injury at work shortly after adding them to the tank. I couldn't walk and had to stay with a friend for the night. When I got home they where dead. I tested the water and this is when the nitrates were high. This was a little over month ago.

After that I did water changes and re did the microb lift bacteria. I also used aquarium salts. This was all recommend by the pet store.

Since doing the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates had been zero for over a week. So I put 3 tiger barbs in and all dead in 5 days. I watched their behaviors more closely. Barka chased then for a few minutes but then settled down in his spot. The tiger barbs chased each other more. But I work 8-16 your shifts so I can't watch them all the time. He may be chasing them when when I'm gone.

Also, I probably should have mentions that this is not my first attempt at keeping tiger barbs. I put 2 tiger barbs in with my tetras when I first got them. They died in a few days. I got 2 more and the same thing happened. I gave up and just got tetras instead. They did fine. Still alive after a year and a half.

Also, I got a new thermometer. The temp in my tank was dropping at night to 72-74. I turned the heater up and now its staying at 78.

So I'm wondering if the tiger barb is more sensitive to water conditions than tetras.

Are they killing each other? Or am I completely missing something?
 
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Also , I had 2 dwarf gouramis it the tank. One died. He became bloated and discolored. He was lying at the bottom of the tank a lot and then finally died. I removed the other one from the tank and kept him by himself and the same thing happened to him. I never saw any of the other fish bothering them. I'm not going to get anymore of them but I was wondering if it could be related to the problem with the barbs.

Thanks,
Brandi
 
I have very little experience with disease issues and won't guess as it can make things even worse. Diagnosing fish ailments is extremely involved, and it is safer to diagnose this or that if you have had experience with this or that.

The sudden death of Tiger Barbs can be due to extreme water parameter differences, ammonia/nitrite mini-cycling, aggression from other fish, or inherent disease. Netting and bagging fish is extremely stressful, the highest stress for fish as it is the "escape predator" physiological response. So this means any other unsuitable factor can be exacerbated. You mention aquarium salt; this impacts fish more than many understand, and a sudden introduction of the already-severely stressed TB into a tank with salt, plus an aggressive Rainbow Shark, plus the fact that this is a shoaling species that must have 8 minimum in the group...you can see this is just a series of negatives.

On the salt, if used for specific treatment of a problem, it can be safe for most but not necessarily all freshwater fish. Water changes will remove it, assuming you completely dissolved it in water and then poured it into the tank. Never add salt crystals to a tank with fish, fish can be burned by salt.

TB are shoaling, and eight is the minimum number, though 12-15 is better. This spreads the natural aggression around. A group of 12-15 in a 30 gallon tank, alone, is minimum requirement. So I would forget this species. It should also never be combined with any sedate (like the gourami) fish, or those with long fins. It is a notorious fin nipper.

The Rainbow Shark should be removed, that is up to you. It it obviously not going to get along. Perhaps the store will just take it to help you? Some stores will if they understand the issue. Though if the store has been mis-advising all along, they are not likely to realize things.

Dwarf gourami can carry a disease known as iridovirus, which is not treatable. Not everyone agrees that it is confined to this one species if the gourami is carrying it (which can be latent). This species should only be acquired from the breeder, or a store who can verify the breeder source of the fish. Any dwarf gourami from SE Asia exporters should be avoided. I'm not saying this killed the one gourami, it was more likely all the other things.
 
I defiantly think the pet store has been miss advising. I've spoken to several people in 3 different stores. They told me a minimum of 3 for the tiger barbs.

As for the dwarf gourami. I'm not going to try that species again. And the pet store won't take the rainbow shark. I don't remember were I got him but I did ask a salesperson at one point.

Do you know any other fish that could be kept with the rainbow shark? I think I'm stuck with him. Even if I have to house him alone.
 
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The tiger barbs were fighting in the bag. I also worried about adding too many fish again and messing up the parameters. I did want to have a semi aggressive tank but I think I'll stick to tetras and danios for now.

Thanks for the advice! You are awesome.
 
If you are getting tiger barbs from the same shop, and they keep dying within a few days of going into your tank, there could be a major difference in water chemistry between the shop and your tank.
eg: the shop might have the fish in soft acid water and your tank could have hard alkaline water, or something along those lines.

It's also highly probable that there was some ammonia in the water, possibly from the new fish being introduced, or the filters not having finished cycling. And in alkaline water (your tank water has a pH of 7.6), any ammonia would be very toxic.

It is possibly a combination of these factors, and even more. Byron mentioned stress from being caught and bagged up at the shop. I have had fish die in the bag on the way home, simply because the shop employee that caught the fish, chased them around for a few minutes before catching them. Even if being chased doesn't kill them directly, the fish become stressed and if they go into a tank with different water chemistry (pH, GH, etc), or into a tank with ammonia, the combined stress kills them.

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Tiger barbs don't naturally fight to kill each other. They are an active schooling fish that naturally occur in groups of hundreds to thousands and they need companions to feel safe and secure. If they are in small groups (less than 10), they can stress out and there can be dominance issues with the biggest male bullying smaller males. But they don't normally try to kill each other.

They will also chase each other around a tank and as mentioned by Byron, that is not a problem when they are in big groups because any aggression is spread out over all the barbs in the group. But if you only have a couple of barbs, it can appear as tho one is attacking the other/s.

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Tiger barbs can be sensitive to chemicals in the water. If you have concerns you can add Activated carbon to the filter and that will absorb chemicals from the aquarium water. It will also absorb plant fertilisers and fish medications, so should not be used if fertilising plants or treating fish with chemicals.

An option is to have a container of tap water and dechlorinate it, then add a small filter with carbon to the container. Leave the carbon filter on the container of water for 24-48 hours and then use that water to do water changes on the tank. Any chemicals in the tap water will be removed by the carbon and it should minimise or prevent the chance of the fish dying from certain chemicals in the tank. You will also be able to fertilise plants and or use medications if you need to.

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re: the bloated discoloured dwarf gourami.
Dwarf Gouramis (Trichogaster lalius) have 2 main issues. The Iriodvirus and Tuberculosis (TB). All gouramis and Bettas can have one or both of these diseases, and the diseases can be spread to any fish that is exposed to the disease organisms.

The Iridoviruvs is a stress virus that damages internal organs and causes sores on the body that develop into major infections and kills the fish. Keeping the fish in optimum health and in ideal water conditions helps reduce the chance of this disease occurring, but when the fish get old or stressed, the virus can flare up and kill the fish.

Tuberculosis is a bacterial infection that slowly grows in or on the fish's internal organs. After a period of time, (6-12 months, sometimes longer), the bacteria cause an organ to rupture or fail and the fish dies from internal organ failure. The most common signs of TB include: fish suddenly bloat up, stop eating, breath heavily at the surface or near a filter outlet, do stringy white poop, and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms.
There is no cure for TB in fish.

Any fish can carry TB or the Iridovirus for months and there is no way of telling if they have the disease until it affects them. And because there is no cure for them, the best thing to do is avoid keeping fishes that are known to carry these diseases. As mentioned by Byron, if you can find someone locally who is breeding dwarf gouramis, then their fish should be free of the disease. But any dwarf gourami from Asia could carry one or both of these diseases. This is because a lot of the breeders in Asia have these diseases in their ponds, and their fish are infected. And a lot of the exporters in Asia have the diseases in their holding facilities, so even if the fish were clean at the breeders, they can become infected at the exporters.

If you want small gouramis there are plenty of different types to choose from, just avoid the common dwarf gourami (Trichogaster lalius) or any of its colour forms, and you should be fine. If you really want to keep this species, then keep them in a species only tank so the only fish in their tank are the dwarf gouramis.

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On a side note, the Iridovirus does not affect people. However, TB can infect people if they have cuts or sores on their skin and they get contaminated water on them. Your fish might not have either of these diseases but you should err on the side of caution and wash your hands and arms with warm soapy water after working in the tank. And if you have any cuts or scratches on your skin, do not get tank water on them, and wear a pr of rubber gloves to prevent aquarium water getting on your skin.

If you get any sores on your hands or arms that don't heal within a couple of weeks, talk to your doctor and tell them you keep fish and have concerns about TB because one of your fish might have died from that. The doctor should take a swap of the sore and send it off to be cultured. Wait for the results before taking any medication because if it is a TB infection, only certain anti-biotics will treat it, and you need to know exactly what strain of TB it is.

While you wait for the results from the swab, you can apply raw honey directly to the sores and put a Band-Aid on it. Rinse the area twice daily and reapply the honey and Band-Aid and see if that helps. Honey can heal a lot of minor infections and whilst it might not help with TB, it can help with some other infections.

Having said all this, most healthy people never develop TB infections from working in their home aquariums. I had TB in my tanks for years and never had an issue. People that are most at risk of developing localised fish TB infections in their skin, are people with immune deficiency disorders, HIV, Hepatitis, Diabetes, Heart Disease, etc.

Just wash your hands and arms with warm soapy water after working in the tank and avoid getting aquarium water on damaged skin, and you should be fine :)
 

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