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Halie201

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I have a 90g I finally moved from my mom's house & I'm trying to finish stocking and was just looking for suggestions. Current stock:

1 blood parrot cichlid
3 clown loaches (had 5 but two died over the past year under my brothers care) & will be adding 2-3 more. Please don't start your comment off by telling me that they get huge and will need more tank as they mature.. I already know
1 common pleco.. which I'm considering returning bc of my lack of knowledge when I first bought him as baby.. had no idea how large they get and amount of waste they produce. Lol - newb life

I was considering a red tail shark, a handful of angelfish mayyybe a gourami? and then some schooling dither fish. I like color and want to fill some of this empty space! I'd rather stay away from the more aggressive fish (most cichlids). Been there, done that- not a huge fan. Does what I said seem acceptable? If not, what do you all suggest? ☺
 
Can you post the dimensions of the tank and the hardness and pH of your water, please? We don't like to recommend species without knowing those.

I'm afraid you can't just ask people not to comment if they spot potential issues. If your tank isn't big enough for a particular species of fish, then don't keep them. As your tank isn't big enough for the clown loach, you should look at rehoming the ones you have rather than buying more. Clown loach are very prone to stunting, and it will do a lot of damage to their long term health.
 
Can you post the dimensions of the tank and the hardness and pH of your water, please? We don't like to recommend species without knowing those.

I'm afraid you can't just ask people not to comment if they spot potential issues. If your tank isn't big enough for a particular species of fish, then don't keep them. As your tank isn't big enough for the clown loach, you should look at rehoming the ones you have rather than buying more. Clown loach are very prone to stunting, and it will do a lot of damage to their long term health.

90G, not 100% on dimensions at the moment. Don't have a tape measure.
Hardness is ~6gh
Ph us right around 7.3
Temp is 80°f

I'm simply saying it is a potential issue that i'm already awake of so no need to state so. I am aware of the fact that they could eventually outgrow this tank. Although some say that 90g is fine but is the absolute minimum for clowns. I know they grow fairly quickly in the first year and then slow down. As of now, they have tons of room. I will move the clowns if need be in the future. None of their growths have been stunted - as they have all grown very well.
 
Going to simply correct all this.
could eventually outgrow this tank
He will. not could.
90g is fine but is the absolute minimum for clowns
We had a guy recently (in the last month) come here and his 90g had some Ridiculously Huge fish in their including clown loaches, 90g isn't even big. They need like a 120G easy. Plus. They school so, minimum amount of them is six.
tons of room
what are the dimensions?
I will move the clowns if need be in the future. None of their growths have been stunted - as they have all grown very well.
I guess the point that fluttermoth, a moderator, threw at you didn't get through. They will either HAVE to be rehomed or HAVE to be in a 120g tank minimum. One guy (good friend) on my other forum, has a 220 for just clown loaches, he has like 7 or so in there. They still look big.
And if you say they keep growing, like they should, doesn't that even to you prove the point more that they need a bigger tank?
 
I agree with previous members here. Perhaps I can put a slightly different perspective on it. And I will also comment on the "considerations" mentioned in post #1 as there are serious issues looming there.

First on the three clowns...unless a 6-foot tank is probable and very soon, I would recommend re-homing the loaches. They need a 6-foot tank minimum; fish develop two ways, internally and externally. They need sufficient space, not just the physical space but the water conditions that occur due to the space. You can read more here if you don't want to accept my advice.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/chromobotia-macracanthus/

Second thing on the clowns...adding more to them may not be the best thing; aside from there not being sufficient space, this has another aspect and that is the hierarchy within the shoal. Clown loaches, like all the botine-type loach species, are highly social animals that develop a definite pecking order within the group early on. Adding more to the group often ends in disaster with dead fish. While this might be more successful in a 6+ foot tank, the confines of the 4-foot (I assume) 90g makes this very risky, and the fish will be the losers. If this was a larger tank, I would likely leave the three after this time. Fish within a shoal dying off over a couple years creates a very different set of circumstances compared to putting together a group of young fish in a new tank.

Moving to the considerations. The existing blood parrot cichlid is a major factor here. This is not a natural species, but a man-made hybrid from two species. As often occurs with hybrids, it has genetic issues that affect its care. For one thing, though a fairly large cichlid (attaining 8 inches) it is much more docile than most others and should not be combined with other cichlids. As for other non-cichlid species, this is not easy either. Smaller fish like the tetras would likely get eaten. Larger fish that are very peaceful might work.

The Red Tail Shark...no, please, absolutely not. This fish is solitary, and usually takes an extreme dislike to other substrate fish in the loach group. They also often have a real dislike to vertically banded fish, making it even worse. If you re-home the loaches, a single RTS might be a consideration, but upper fish would have to be carefully thought out, and shouldn't include angelfish or gourami which are too sedate.

Turning to the angelfish and gourami, and commenting solely on these without considering the blood parrot: gourami and cichlids do not combine well because they are so much alike. Males are territorial, the degree depending upon the species and the individual fish. You could have a nice shoal of angelfish if it were not for the blood parrot. Or a nice shoal of gourami, same. But please don't do this unless you deal first with the blood parrot, and the clown loaches. Adding to problems makes things more difficult.

Byron.
 
Going to simply correct all this.

He will. not could.


We had a guy recently (in the last month) come here and his 90g had some Ridiculously Huge fish in their including clown loaches, 90g isn't even big. They need like a 120G easy. Plus. They school so, minimum amount of them is six.

what are the dimensions?

I guess the point that fluttermoth, a moderator, threw at you didn't get through. They will either HAVE to be rehomed or HAVE to be in a 120g tank minimum. One guy (good friend) on my other forum, has a 220 for just clown loaches, he has like 7 or so in there. They still look big.
And if you say they keep growing, like they should, doesn't that even to you prove the point more that they need a bigger tank?

Alright, they WILL outgrow this tank.. in years to come. As of right now, the largest is about 3 1/2" long. It took him 3 years to grow 2".. So I feel that they will be fine for a while until I will rehome them OR get a larger tank for them. I bought the 90G FOR the clowns, because I wanted them so bad. They were only about 1" maybe 1 1/2" when I got them.

Mine are no where near ridiculously huge.. and won't be for some time, I'm willing to bet. While 90g may not be the mother ship of fish tanks, it was large enough for me at the time and what I could afford only being 18. I provided the best environment possible for the clowns, as they were meant to be my centerpiece. I am also aware they should be in a school. Hence why I had 5 to begin with and they were very happy and active.

Again, I don't have a tape measure on hand but if I had to guess, it's probably about 4 1/2' long if that helps.

I can clearly see they are a moderator. I'm assuming you're pointing this out to me again to be sure I realize this person has a lot more knowledge on this.. I'm aware. His/her point very much did through to me. Again, VERY aware that they will need a bigger home at some point in the future. But right now, they have 90g and about 4 1/2' in length to grow into. I will keep their best interest in mind. Thanks.
 
So to answer your main question; no don't add on to your stocking issue you already have.
 
I agree with previous members here. Perhaps I can put a slightly different perspective on it. And I will also comment on the "considerations" mentioned in post #1 as there are serious issues looming there.

First on the three clowns...unless a 6-foot tank is probable and very soon, I would recommend re-homing the loaches. They need a 6-foot tank minimum; fish develop two ways, internally and externally. They need sufficient space, not just the physical space but the water conditions that occur due to the space. You can read more here if you don't want to accept my advice.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/chromobotia-macracanthus/

Second thing on the clowns...adding more to them may not be the best thing; aside from there not being sufficient space, this has another aspect and that is the hierarchy within the shoal. Clown loaches, like all the botine-type loach species, are highly social animals that develop a definite pecking order within the group early on. Adding more to the group often ends in disaster with dead fish. While this might be more successful in a 6+ foot tank, the confines of the 4-foot (I assume) 90g makes this very risky, and the fish will be the losers. If this was a larger tank, I would likely leave the three after this time. Fish within a shoal dying off over a couple years creates a very different set of circumstances compared to putting together a group of young fish in a new tank.

Moving to the considerations. The existing blood parrot cichlid is a major factor here. This is not a natural species, but a man-made hybrid from two species. As often occurs with hybrids, it has genetic issues that affect its care. For one thing, though a fairly large cichlid (attaining 8 inches) it is much more docile than most others and should not be combined with other cichlids. As for other non-cichlid species, this is not easy either. Smaller fish like the tetras would likely get eaten. Larger fish that are very peaceful might work.

The Red Tail Shark...no, please, absolutely not. This fish is solitary, and usually takes an extreme dislike to other substrate fish in the loach group. They also often have a real dislike to vertically banded fish, making it even worse. If you re-home the loaches, a single RTS might be a consideration, but upper fish would have to be carefully thought out, and shouldn't include angelfish or gourami which are too sedate.


Turning to the angelfish and gourami, and commenting solely on these without considering the blood parrot: gourami and cichlids do not combine well because they are so much alike. Males are territorial, the degree depending upon the species and the individual fish. You could have a nice shoal of angelfish if it were not for the blood parrot. Or a nice shoal of gourami, same. But please don't do this unless you deal first with the blood parrot, and the clown loaches. Adding to problems makes things more difficult.



Byron.

I will consider re-homing them. But as of right now, I can't see where the space they have is harmful.. It states on that page that younger groups can be kept in smaller aquaria if several water changes are made.. which they are. It states that their growth slows considerably once they hit 5", which they still have not hit in the nearly 3 years i've had them. I believe you when it comes to the two ways they develop. It is a very good point that I did not consider when getting the fish.

The hierarchy comment is also another point that I did not consider when adding more. So, thank you for that. This is still a learning experience for me. I started with a tall 29g housing goldfish and koi fish and later a large oscar with only a small HOB filter if that tells you anything. I've come a long way and still have a long way to go.


I know BPs are a man-made breed. I am aware of some of the genetic issues it has, but mine has thrived very well. He is plump, seems healthy and eats very well, considering. I wasn't planning on going with more cichlids other than maybe the angel fish, with reading that they are typically fairly docile.

I may just be reading and watching the wrong videos here but.. I've read/seen many tanks with all of the above fish (except the BP) together living in harmony. Given, they were usually planted tanks and the tanks all housed a school of clowns alongside angels, gouramis AND RTS and many more species. Not just one tank or read, but several. So I was under the assumption that they would be alright together given the right circumstances. I even did cross-reading on tank mates for these fish and most sites stated that they could live together- but sometimes depending on the temperament of the individual fish.

So with all this being said, what would you suggest for stock WITHOUT re-homing the clowns- for now?
 
So with all this being said, what would you suggest for stock WITHOUT re-homing the clowns- for now?
Nothing, you have plenty of burden on yours shoulders as is.

I will consider re-homing them. But as of right now, I can't see where the space they have is harmful..
Read our posts again, maybe 3x lol.
kept in smaller aquaria if several water changes are made.. which they are
Here is a Prime example of what you just said...
Ok so I can keep an Oscar in a 10 gallon tank right, as long as I do five water changes a day, and have nine filters hooked to the tank. sweet yea ill go with that.
Are you about the fish being happy or you? because it sounds like your taking the choice on the right.
 
Nothing, you have plenty of burden on yours shoulders as is.


Read our posts again, maybe 3x lol.

Here is a Prime example of what you just said...
Ok so I can keep an Oscar in a 10 gallon tank right, as long as I do five water changes a day, and have nine filters hooked to the tank. sweet yea ill go with that.
Are you about the fish being happy or you? because it sounds like your taking the choice on the right.


Man, you really are rude aren't you? Should have read your lil bio first. :|

Your example is extremely exaggerated. That site CLEARLY states young clowns CAN BE KEPT in smaller IF sufficient water changes are made. I could see if I was housing these clowns in a 46g tank where your "prime" example would be more "prime". I got this tank and set it up FOR the clowns. THEIR Ph, THEIR temp, THEIR substrate, etc. So clearly I was thinking of them.. AND myself because I wanted them more than anything else. Isn't there someone out there in a crappier situation than mine that you can go make feel stupid for? jeeeeesus christ

So my huge burden is that I have fish that I will have to re-home?.. And the BP is man made so he obviously just sucks all the way around. What else?
 
If I may step in here...some of us are continually offering help to people who bluntly refuse it, and sometimes we may jump the gun rather than sit back and go slower. I remember a friend of mine, a marine biologist, a couple years back telling me she had left forums because she was tired of always having to justify herself when members literally told her she didn't know what she was talking about. I get that frequently on here; more than once I have nearly left this forum because I get fed up, but then I calm myself and try again. So, with that in mind...I'll do my best to comment on your responses to my earlier points.

I will consider re-homing them. But as of right now, I can't see where the space they have is harmful.. It states on that page that younger groups can be kept in smaller aquaria if several water changes are made.. which they are. It states that their growth slows considerably once they hit 5", which they still have not hit in the nearly 3 years i've had them. I believe you when it comes to the two ways they develop. It is a very good point that I did not consider when getting the fish.

The hierarchy comment is also another point that I did not consider when adding more. So, thank you for that. This is still a learning experience for me. I started with a tall 29g housing goldfish and koi fish and later a large oscar with only a small HOB filter if that tells you anything. I've come a long way and still have a long way to go.

I missed the small size previously, my fault, sorry about that. You have time to organize, but if a 6-foot tank is not likely, I would move to re-home the clowns now for their benefit. Fish are much more capable of acclimating to a new environment the younger they are. But you're fine for the present. Water changes don't need to be over the top; you have the space, and a weekly partial WC of 50-60% of the tank volume (at one go is better than multiple smaller changes) is "normal" by my thinking for every aquarium assuming it is not overstocked or stocked with problems.

And we never stop learning, or if we do, we should leave the hobby, as this is not fair to the fish we keep.:fish:

I may just be reading and watching the wrong videos here but.. I've read/seen many tanks with all of the above fish (except the BP) together living in harmony. Given, they were usually planted tanks and the tanks all housed a school of clowns alongside angels, gouramis AND RTS and many more species. Not just one tank or read, but several. So I was under the assumption that they would be alright together given the right circumstances. I even did cross-reading on tank mates for these fish and most sites stated that they could live together- but sometimes depending on the temperament of the individual fish.

This is one of the major problems with this hobby...misinformation being seen/accepted as accurate when it is anything but correct. Anyone can post videos, or set up a website, and become "expert." I always look at the credentials. Seriously Fish is probably the best of its kind, because it is owned and administered by biologists and ichthyologists. But there are many, many sites not worth the viewing. The same can be said of fish stores; some are owned and staffed by hobbyists who research, but many are run by people just there for the salary.

When it comes to how a fish species will likely behave, there is a normal behaviour for the species. We should always expect the norm, and never experiment in the hopes it may work. It might sort of work, but more often than not it will not work because we are simply expecting the fish to be "different" to suit our needs. We should rather always aim to provide the species with what it needs, and go from there. Freshwater fish are living creatures that have evolved over thousands of years to function best in very specific environments; this is in their DNA, and you and I are not going to alter this. Read the two citations in my signature block, they are both pertinent here. We sometimes wrongly assume that the fish are fine because they seem "OK," but there is a whole world of difference between surviving and thriving. I aim for the latter, in my aquaria and my advice.

So with all this being said, what would you suggest for stock WITHOUT re-homing the clowns- for now?

This is not easy to answer. I would first off forget any substrate fish; let the clowns own the substrate. Provided you have lots of places for them to hide, they will be happier alone. Chunks of wood like the Malaysian Driftwood is ideal for this; it often has crevices and tunnels. Loaches like to select their own home, where they will "sleep." Having choices settles them faster and better. They also like to chase each other, sort of playing tag in a sense, and I have seen my Botia kubotai and Ambastaia sidthimunki having some incredible relays swimming in one end and out somewhere else. This is how we can tell the fish are probably "OK," when they exhibit natural behaviours.

With the Blood Parrot, I would look at many of the medium to larger characins (tetras), making sure they are peaceful and not prone to feisty or aggressive tendencies. Bleeding Hearts (Hyphessobrycon erythrostigma) should be nice here; my only reservation is that I have heard they sometimes fin nip sedate fish like angelfish, though I did not see that when I had mine, but to be fair I usually mention it. Congo Tetra (Phenacogrammus interruptus) should work. Both of these in a group of 10-12 minimum.

Avoid all barbs and danios; these are active swimmers which can unsettle sedate fish, and many of the barbs can easily fin nip.

Byron.
 
If I may step in here...some of us are continually offering help to people who bluntly refuse it, and sometimes we may jump the gun rather than sit back and go slower. I remember a friend of mine, a marine biologist, a couple years back telling me she had left forums because she was tired of always having to justify herself when members literally told her she didn't know what she was talking about. I get that frequently on here; more than once I have nearly left this forum because I get fed up, but then I calm myself and try again. So, with that in mind...I'll do my best to comment on your responses to my earlier points.



I missed the small size previously, my fault, sorry about that. You have time to organize, but if a 6-foot tank is not likely, I would move to re-home the clowns now for their benefit. Fish are much more capable of acclimating to a new environment the younger they are. But you're fine for the present. Water changes don't need to be over the top; you have the space, and a weekly partial WC of 50-60% of the tank volume (at one go is better than multiple smaller changes) is "normal" by my thinking for every aquarium assuming it is not overstocked or stocked with problems.

And we never stop learning, or if we do, we should leave the hobby, as this is not fair to the fish we keep.:fish:



This is one of the major problems with this hobby...misinformation being seen/accepted as accurate when it is anything but correct. Anyone can post videos, or set up a website, and become "expert." I always look at the credentials. Seriously Fish is probably the best of its kind, because it is owned and administered by biologists and ichthyologists. But there are many, many sites not worth the viewing. The same can be said of fish stores; some are owned and staffed by hobbyists who research, but many are run by people just there for the salary.

When it comes to how a fish species will likely behave, there is a normal behaviour for the species. We should always expect the norm, and never experiment in the hopes it may work. It might sort of work, but more often than not it will not work because we are simply expecting the fish to be "different" to suit our needs. We should rather always aim to provide the species with what it needs, and go from there. Freshwater fish are living creatures that have evolved over thousands of years to function best in very specific environments; this is in their DNA, and you and I are not going to alter this. Read the two citations in my signature block, they are both pertinent here. We sometimes wrongly assume that the fish are fine because they seem "OK," but there is a whole world of difference between surviving and thriving. I aim for the latter, in my aquaria and my advice.



This is not easy to answer. I would first off forget any substrate fish; let the clowns own the substrate. Provided you have lots of places for them to hide, they will be happier alone. Chunks of wood like the Malaysian Driftwood is ideal for this; it often has crevices and tunnels. Loaches like to select their own home, where they will "sleep." Having choices settles them faster and better. They also like to chase each other, sort of playing tag in a sense, and I have seen my Botia kubotai and Ambastaia sidthimunki having some incredible relays swimming in one end and out somewhere else. This is how we can tell the fish are probably "OK," when they exhibit natural behaviours.

With the Blood Parrot, I would look at many of the medium to larger characins (tetras), making sure they are peaceful and not prone to feisty or aggressive tendencies. Bleeding Hearts (Hyphessobrycon erythrostigma) should be nice here; my only reservation is that I have heard they sometimes fin nip sedate fish like angelfish, though I did not see that when I had mine, but to be fair I usually mention it. Congo Tetra (Phenacogrammus interruptus) should work. Both of these in a group of 10-12 minimum.

Avoid all barbs and danios; these are active swimmers which can unsettle sedate fish, and many of the barbs can easily fin nip.

Byron.
The only thing I'm refusing to do FOR NOW is re-home my clowns. I really do love them and hate to see them go.. But will in due time or simply get a larger tank if space/money permits me to do so. I just had a baby and currently don't make any money at the moment so my funds are limited for now. I want to say thank you for commenting in a more polite and informative matter. I truly am hearing everything out. But I am, indeed, refusing to listen to the fact that the clowns need re-homeing right now. Maybe it's just because I'm a stubborn woman, lol. Anyway so moving on..

I typically do a 50% wc weekly all at one go so that's one thing in doing right, here. I do have one decent sized driftwood in the tank for them, but they typically stay around a tall coral-like decoration that has many in&out holes. They typically sleep here as well. I was going to try avoiding barbs & danios as I had read they tend to be a bit on the nippy size. I have heard of bleeding hearts but never looked into them. I will do that. If I could re-home the BP (which would be much easier for me for several reasons), do you feel my options would be more open? If so, what do you feel then, could be appropriate for stock?
 
The only thing I'm refusing to do FOR NOW is re-home my clowns. I really do love them and hate to see them go.. But will in due time or simply get a larger tank if space/money permits me to do so. I just had a baby and currently don't make any money at the moment so my funds are limited for now. I want to say thank you for commenting in a more polite and informative matter. I truly am hearing everything out. But I am, indeed, refusing to listen to the fact that the clowns need re-homeing right now. Maybe it's just because I'm a stubborn woman, lol. Anyway so moving on..

I typically do a 50% wc weekly all at one go so that's one thing in doing right, here. I do have one decent sized driftwood in the tank for them, but they typically stay around a tall coral-like decoration that has many in&out holes. They typically sleep here as well. I was going to try avoiding barbs & danios as I had read they tend to be a bit on the nippy size. I have heard of bleeding hearts but never looked into them. I will do that. If I could re-home the BP (which would be much easier for me for several reasons), do you feel my options would be more open? If so, what do you feel then, could be appropriate for stock?

Without the BP you have almost unlimited options. I am personally not a fan of really large fish so I tend to go with smaller fish and lots of them. But "smaller" fish can mean anthing from 5-6 inches down to an inch or two. I don't think really small fish, under 1 inch, look very well in large tanks, they rather get lost.

You could reconsider angelfish, a group of say five or six. Clown loaches are sometimes suggested for angelfish, but really this is not that good an idea, but there is no major reason, so it is one of those possibles. I could suggest several characins with angelfish, sort of slightly smaller versions of the Bleeding Heart--Rosy Tetra, Ornate or Roberti Tetra, Red Phantom Tetra, etc. None of these are nippers, but there are other closely related species that would terrorize angelfish.

Or gourami, another fish you earlier mentioned. This is a tank crying out for a group of Pearl Gourami, one of the most stunning of the medium gourami, very peaceful (for gourami), and easy to find tankmates. The tetras I suggest for angelfish are the disk-shaped, not linear, because mature angelfish will view linear fish as likely food. Pearl Gourami do not have this facet, so there are lovely rasbora species as well as other tetras. Rummynose tetra for example, cardinal tetra, etc. The GH at 6 which I will take to be 6 degrees (= 107 ppm, or 107 mg/l equavilent) is perfect here. Avoid all livebearers, they need harder water. But you have most of the fish from South America and SE Asia which is a lot indeed.

Byron.
 
Here are a few photos of my 90g in various times of its life, as South American, Amazonian, and now general riverscape.
 

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Here are a few photos of my 90g in various times of its life, as South American, Amazonian, and now general riverscape.

Those tanks are beautiful! I have always loved planted tanks but never got into them because I was scared it was too much. I was just really getting into the hobby and it seemed to add more confusion than anything and I didn't want to make it harder on myself. I know there are a lot of benefits with planted tanks.. Though I'm not sure if the clowns would dig up plants if I decided to give it a go?

So, other than angels and gourami, what other slightly bigger fish do you think would look flashy in the tank with the clowns? Now i'm just looking for options outside of those two. I went with those because I was most familiar with them but if my options are open, I'm open for more suggestions on different communities. I do like both pairs of fish you stated tho (angels/bleeding hearts or gourami/tetras). I, too, prefer to have more smaller fish than a few bigger ones. I think it looks better and i love colors & personality so schooling fish are cool with me. You are obviously very knowledgeable so I'll likely kill you with questions. Pardon in advance.
 

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