Help Reading This Ph And Loss Of Fish After Water Changes

[Byron]

But the tap that was tested yesterday both at home and at LFS that read 6.4 HAD been sitting out for 24 hours so CO2 should not have been the issue?!   And I don't think the municipal authority has anything to do with adding something since I'm a private well...?  Looking back in my fish journals the ph that I read today at 7.6 is right where I was after my tank had cycled.  So I'm baffled by this.
 

 
I would be too.  If all these tests were accurate, it would seem that your well water pH is changing and fairly significantly, which I would not expect from the ground water.  I really would be careful doing the tests, if instead of 3 drops of regent you should happen to only get 2, or get 4, it can be inaccurate.
 
Is the water being processed or treated at all before/when it enters the house?  You need to consider every possible.

 

[StevenF]

 
Treated Tap (1 Gallon pitcher with .1ml prime, .1ml flourish, .5ml gravel cleaner):
PH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5.0
 
.....How in the heck has my PH changed from a 6.4 to a 7.6 w/out doing anything differently other than a different day?!?!? 
 
And is it normal to have Nitrates show up in tap...
and not go away after treated with Prime?

 
For nitrates the recommendation is to keep the level below 20ppm.  It is not unusual to have some show up in the water.  Our friends in UK seem to have a lot of problems with nitrates in the tap.  Up to 40ppm in fact.  There are only 2 ways to remove ammonia from an aquarium, remove it and pour it down the drain, or let plants consume it.   Nitrates even at 40ppm will not kill fish but could eventually shorten the life span of the fish and make it susceptible to disease.  Also as I mentioned below nitrates of zero is not good either because it can prevent plants from using up other nutrients.  I fact I would consider a nitrate reading of 5ppm ideal.
 
In pure water low PH readings are typically caused by gases in the water such as CO2, SO2, HNO3, HNO2, Cl2.  Normally these will transfer to the air or react with something in the water such as calcium and magnesium creating a salt.  by letting a bucket site the gases will slowly transfer to the air.  So to see the PH go from 6 to 6.4 to 7.6 is not unusual.  At 7.6  we are probably looking at the true gas free reading of your water PH.  7.6 is safe for use in an aquarium.  note Ammonia NH3 is a gas but unlike the ones I listed above it tends to push the PH up.
 
However we are not seeing ammonia.  Strange.  Either the person at the store did the test wrong or all the ammonia has evaporated.  Did they use the same test kit your have or was it a different one.  Could you describe how they did it or what the product was that they used?  That might help.  From my experience Ammonia  doesn't evaporate from tap water this fast.  So either they got a false positive, did the test wrong or something really strange is going on in your water.  
 
When the water company arrives give them a printed copy of this thread and explain your concerns and ask for printed up lab report.  Don't accept a verbal report.

 

[thrujenseyes]

 
However we are not seeing ammonia.  Strange.  Either the person at the store did the test wrong or all the ammonia has evaporated.  Did they use the same test kit your have or was it a different one.  Could you describe how they did it or what the product was that they used?  That might help.  From my experience Ammonia  doesn't evaporate from tap water this fast.  So either they got a false positive, did the test wrong or something really strange is going on in your water.  
 
When the water company arrives give them a printed copy of this thread and explain your concerns and ask for printed up lab report.  Don't accept a verbal report.
 

The guy at LFS came up the same as me on the PH which was 6.4 (from yesterdays water that sat our for 24 hours).
However when he told me there was Ammonia I was shocked and asked to see the reading.  His test was not the same as mine (API Freshwater test kit).  He used the strips which confused me.  As did his very fast talk (it was pretty busy in there).  He showed me where the ammonia read on the strip and it was very low but showing up.
 
And Byron I am SUPER careful when testing and I write everything down to make sure.  I always keep my little test kit booklet out so I'm making sure I do each test correctly.  Because I know they are not all the same steps.
Also Byron, there is an extra step our water goes thru before coming thru the tap.  I'm assuming it's a conditioner (big giant blue bullet looking thing about 5ft tall.  I can only imagine that it's softening hard water as wells usually are hard?!  From what I remember in past homes.  I was always married prior and had someone taking care of water stuff before.  Now I'm in my own little home and have to do this stuff myself so I'm unsure of many things...
So I will pay much attention to the guy when he comes out to tend to these issues and "the blue bullet" in the basement. 
 
And Steven, that is great advice on asking for a printed up lab report as spoken information is rough to remember and not always correct.  Also great to know about the nitrates!  Makes me feel better.

 

[Byron]

Also Byron, there is an extra step our water goes thru before coming thru the tap.  I'm assuming it's a conditioner (big giant blue bullet looking thing about 5ft tall.  I can only imagine that it's softening hard water as wells usually are hard?!  From what I remember in past homes.  I was always married prior and had someone taking care of water stuff before.  Now I'm in my own little home and have to do this stuff myself so I'm unsure of many things...
So I will pay much attention to the guy when he comes out to tend to these issues and "the blue bullet" in the basement.
 

 
OK, we may be getting somewhere.  You need to find out exactly how/what the "blue bullet" contraption does.  This could easily be adding salts or any number of substances (depending what the natural well water contains) that will harm fish.  The death of your Endlers following every water change would certainly suggest this, as the "substance" would be strongest then.

 

[thrujenseyes]

OK, we may be getting somewhere.  You need to find out exactly how/what the "blue bullet" contraption does.  This could easily be adding salts or any number of substances (depending what the natural well water contains) that will harm fish.  The death of your Endlers following every water change would certainly suggest this, as the "substance" would be strongest then.
 

I vaguely remember years ago someone coming out and emptying it and refilling with rocks and such and explaining that I have a "Grundfos System" and it runs once a week (I think...and I'm not suppose to use water while its running).
I didn't have the fish tank back then (and we never drink our tap water) so I wasn't all that concerned and the info kinda went in one ear and quickly out the other.
 
I will pay close attention this time around.

 

[StevenF]

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[StevenF]

 
The guy at LFS came up the same as me on the PH which was 6.4 (from yesterdays water that sat our for 24 hours).
However when he told me there was Ammonia I was shocked and asked to see the reading.  His test was not the same as mine (API Freshwater test kit).  He used the strips which confused me.  As did his very fast talk (it was pretty busy in there).  He showed me where the ammonia read on the strip and it was very low but showing up.

I I started this hobby using test strips.  Later when I joined this forum I read of people saying they were inaccurate.  So I started comparing the results with solutions of known concentrations and other test methods.  I found the tetra 6 in 1test strips are accurate if used correctly.
 
However for the ammonia test strips I recently purchased them for a project that didn't involve fish.  I found they were much harder to read and you had to read them immediately after exposure to water.  If you didn't they would give you a false positive.  That is likely what happened at the store and explains the discrepancy with your test results.

 

[thrujenseyes]

 
 

I just wanted to update what I learned as of last night...
 
I went thru all of my paperwork on house stuff and put all of my "water invoices" together and in order.  I had made notes on them since I no longer rely on someone else to know what the heck they're for.
 
Apparently the year before I bought this house 08' the well pump went bad and they put in a Grundfos system with a variable speed pump (apparently pretty good stuff as it was 2,600.00.
 
I called them for an annual service 09' and they "replenished Unit" ...which must be the "blue bullet" with 30lb of calcite mineral and chlorine.
 
11' Dump and Replace.  Chlorinated.
 
13' Added 50lbs PH Booster and Chlorinated.
 
14' Replaced 202 Storage Tank (a holding tank to relieve pressure from the well pump) different tank ...not "blue bullet" with a Flexcon Steel Well Tank.
 
So....
This is what the tanks in basement do and it was quite helpful and informative to go over this stuff.  How the hell does my mind completely forget all of this?!?
 
Anyway, I will call for Annual Service ...which is overdo but I will remember to make great notes and ask many questions and get a water report.
 
If anyone has suggestions on questions PLEASE let me know so I'm sure to ask the right things!
 
Thank you very much!!!

 
 

He did it right in front of me, but like I said...I was very confused as I've never used test strips. But if that is what's recommended I will get them!
 
Also, please see my last post as I did some digging into my water.  Thanks a million!

 

[Byron]

On the water contraption, calcite is a form of calcium carbonate, so this should increase GH/KH/pH.  When it is "replaced" or serviced, it might cause a spike in these.  Chlorine we know about, a good conditioner will deal with that though levels may be high.  The "pH booster" is a real danger for fish.
 
Obviously from the fluctuating test results we know things are not consistent.  I cannot guess at solutions, but I will say that I would not use water run through this unit for fish.  If you could bypass this somehow, and use water direct fro the well, it might be safer once you know exactly what is in it.
 
The soft water fish discussed earlier in this thread will not last long with this water.  They are not only soft water fish but highly sensitive to any chemicals.  Endlers might be the best option after all, once you have the water sorted out.  As I mentioned previously, the fish did seem to have problems with water at each water change so something is in it.
 
Byron.

 

[thrujenseyes]

On the water contraption, calcite is a form of calcium carbonate, so this should increase GH/KH/pH.  When it is "replaced" or serviced, it might cause a spike in these.  Chlorine we know about, a good conditioner will deal with that though levels may be high.  The "pH booster" is a real danger for fish.
 
Obviously from the fluctuating test results we know things are not consistent.  I cannot guess at solutions, but I will say that I would not use water run through this unit for fish.  If you could bypass this somehow, and use water direct fro the well, it might be safer once you know exactly what is in it.
 
The soft water fish discussed earlier in this thread will not last long with this water.  They are not only soft water fish but highly sensitive to any chemicals.  Endlers might be the best option after all, once you have the water sorted out.  As I mentioned previously, the fish did seem to have problems with water at each water change so something is in it.
 
Byron.

 
I set up my water testing for Monday Sept 12th.  I'll write up all my questions until then.
 
So a PH Booster is bad for fish....do you think it's gone by now?  that was three years ago.  Wonder if they forgo that step if I'll be ok?  All things I must ask them.  
Also will be sure to ask if I can bypass the filtration and get direct from well.  
I will have the well alone tested and also after it's treated and get reports of both.
 
I will also ask my next door neighbor where his tank water comes from as I know he keeps a few different tanks in his house and he's had the same fish for many years.
 
I feel pretty good about getting this info but pretty bad about solutions.  
 
Until my water is squared away I really have no choice but to use RO or distilled...
so, what do I need to add mineral wise to make this safe for my tank?  
6 gallon, endlers and 1 amano shrimp and 1 nerite snail and a TON of live plants (that flourish)
 
Thanks a million...as always I really appreciate the support!

 

[Byron]

The shell option Steven mentioned may work for you.  If this were me, I would simply get a small bag of aragonite sand (intended to use as an aquarium substrate, it releases calcium and magnesium which raised GH, KH and pH).  I wouldn't use it as the substrate, though you could mix some in with the substrate, or place it in a nylon bag like I outlined earlier.  I've used this method myself and it works.  It takes very, very little.
 
I have no idea what the "pH booster" is/was...but if this is some chemical solution it will likely be directly harmful to fish.  It might be soda ash (sodium carbonate); I have this in my municipal water, added to increase pH (but no effect on GH or KH), and it dissipates out fairly quickly.  It might be lime (calcium hydroxide).

 

[thrujenseyes]

The shell option Steven mentioned may work for you.  If this were me, I would simply get a small bag of aragonite sand (intended to use as an aquarium substrate, it releases calcium and magnesium which raised GH, KH and pH).  I wouldn't use it as the substrate, though you could mix some in with the substrate, or place it in a nylon bag like I outlined earlier.  I've used this method myself and it works.  It takes very, very little.
 
I have no idea what the "pH booster" is/was...but if this is some chemical solution it will likely be directly harmful to fish.  It might be soda ash (sodium carbonate); I have this in my municipal water, added to increase pH (but no effect on GH or KH), and it dissipates out fairly quickly.  It might be lime (calcium hydroxide).

 
Excellent!  Will do.  So I will use RO and or Distilled in the meanwhile and add either a shell or some aragonite sand.  I will also use some Seachem Flourish for my plants....correct?

 

[Byron]

It is impossible for anyone to answer this question but with RO you will probably need an additive and Flourish Comprehensive Supplement is the complete basic liquid fertiliser.  I have 8 planted tanks in my fishroom, and two get nothing and the others vary.  Yet I have the same lighting, water, fish load and even plant species.

 

[StevenF]

 
So a PH Booster is bad for fish....do you think it's gone by now?  that was three years ago.  Wonder if they forgo that step if I'll be ok?  All things I must ask them. 
Also will be sure to ask if I can bypass the filtration and get direct from well. 
I will have the well alone tested and also after it's treated and get reports of both.
 
I will also ask my next door neighbor where his tank water comes from as I know he keeps a few different tanks in his house and he's had the same fish for many years.
 
I feel pretty good about getting this info but pretty bad about solutions. 
 
Until my water is squared away I really have no choice but to use RO or distilled...
so, what do I need to add mineral wise to make this safe for my tank? 
6 gallon, endlers and 1 amano shrimp and 1 nerite snail and a TON of live plants (that flourish)

We don't know what the ph booster is at this time.  I would not assume it is harmful.  And yes it may be gone by now which might explain your low PH readings.  you probably can tap the well directly but at this tine we don't know what the well water is like.  It might be just as bad or worse than what you already put in the tank.
 
When they come to do the service ask them what the ph booster is.we don't want the brand name.  We want to know what the ingredients are.  Same for anything else they put in the water.
 
Like I said earlier I use RO water I fertilize with Sachem flourish compressive and have snail shells in the tank.  My fish and shrimp and plants are doing fine.  Ph is always close to 7.

 

[thrujenseyes]

It is impossible for anyone to answer this question but with RO you will probably need an additive and Flourish Comprehensive Supplement is the complete basic liquid fertiliser.  I have 8 planted tanks in my fishroom, and two get nothing and the others vary.  Yet I have the same lighting, water, fish load and even plant species.

Ok great.  I have Seachem Flourish Excel but looks like I need "Comprehensive" which I will get.
 
I see that Steven also told me a while back (and now) that's a good one.
 
Much appreciated, as always.  And I'm writing all these things down, so I know what to ask when water people come out!

 

 
 
 

We don't know what the ph booster is at this time.  I would not assume it is harmful.  And yes it may be gone by now which might explain your low PH readings.  you probably can tap the well directly but at this tine we don't know what the well water is like.  It might be just as bad or worse than what you already put in the tank.
 
When they come to do the service ask them what the ph booster is.we don't want the brand name.  We want to know what the ingredients are.  Same for anything else they put in the water.
 
Like I said earlier I use RO water I fertilize with Sachem flourish compressive and have snail shells in the tank.  My fish and shrimp and plants are doing fine.  Ph is always close to 7.
 

Ok, the ingredients.  I will find out!
 
I will also get the Comprehensive ( I have Seachem Flourish Excel but suppose it must be lacking in something more that I will need...I'll look up ingredient list).
 
Thanks again!