Goodeid Crossbreeding

[guppymonkey]

I was just curious to know how closely related the goodeids are and which can crossbreed. I know a lot of people are against hybrids (and I hope this topic doesn't get sent to the hybrid forum) but I was just wondering. I have a Characadon lateralis male and all of my females died during the birthing processs. I saved some of the young but they are much too young to put with my adult male. I decided to add in a couple female Xenotoca eiseni to keep my male active and he is trying to mate with them. I don't think they are close enough to actually produce offspring but I was curious if anyone knows which other species of goodeids are closely related enough to produce offspring.

 

[nmonks]

Yes, some goodeids are known to hybridise. It's been done in labs and in home aquaria. I'm not going to list the ones I know of here for fear of encouraging irresponsible aquarists from trying to re-create these experiments.

Please, don't do it. Hybrids are a danger, not a goal, in livebearer breeding. It is difficult enough getting goodeids and other "rare" livebearers from tropical fish shops. It would so much worse if we had to look out for hybrids dumped on the shops as well.

Cheers, Neale

 

[guppymonkey]

I am not saying that I am going to try but I truly don't see what the difference is between hybridizing goodeids and how the domestic breeds of livebearerers (such as guppies, mollies, platies and swordtails) are for the most part hybrids and I don't see many people complaining about them. As long as a viable number of wild type goodeids are maintained how is it harming to breed domestic breeds of them? Now I know I will get some hardcore keepers yelling at me and I am not encouraging hybridization of goodeid species but I don't see a difference. If there were some hybrids that turned out to be more classic beauties than their wild counterparts it could encourage goodeid keeping.

 

[nmonks]

There's a big difference between goodeids and, say, platies.

When you buy goodeids, you buy a species. The people who are going to keep these fish are only after pure-bred species. If you breed a Xenotoca x Ameca hybrid and then dump the offspring on your LFS what will the LFS sell them as? He can't sell nondescript hybrids, so he'll mark them down as whatever they're closest to. So someone comes along, thinks the shop has Ameca splendens, buys them, but ends up with hybrids. That person crossbreeds the hybrids with some true A. splendens, and gets fish that are 3/4 A. splendens and 1/4 X. eiseni. And so it goes on, with the resulting fish looking more and more like A. splendens, but still having genes from X. eiseni. In effect, an "invisible" threat to the pure-bred strains aquarists are interested in.

Think I'm being paranoid? This is EXACTLY what happened with Endler guppies within a few years. All -- repeat, ALL -- the commercially sold stock in generic fish shops are hybrids between Endlers and regular guppies. Getting pure Endlers is now very difficult except from specialist suppliers.

Platies are hybrids of at least two species, mollies probably 4 species, and for fancy swordtails, goodness knows how many subspecies and species went into them. They're all a mess and of no interest at all to someone after "wild-type" fish. But they're showy and colourful and sell well, and the LFS doesn't need to mark them up as species. The people who buy mollies and platies don't care.

Please understand this isn't yelling. I can understand why the experiment sounds interesting. It's been done in labs and works. But unless you will destroy the young rather than sell them to a LFS, producing those hybrids will be detrimental to the hobby.

Cheers, Neale

 

[guppymonkey]

I don't see how hybrids can be a detriment to the hobby as a whole. To the wild fish keeping enthusiast it could hurt but not to the general hobby. If someone breeds a more colorful goodeid that the general hobbyist found attractive (I am talking about the person who just wants to buy fish that have "color") then that could only help fish keeping. Most goodeids are hard to find and rarely found in pet stores, on occasion yes but not very often. Most stores don't want to carry "ugly" fish and would rather buy some fish that are bright colorful fish. Also most pet stores don't use scientific names and use common names (often making up colorful names). Any hybrid goodeid would most likely have such a name thrown on it (if indeed you could find a pet store to take them). Or the breeder could sell them online as hybrid (which I have seen occasionally).

I can see what you are saying about a threat to pure strains but any species bred in captivity is going to have problems. The genetic variety is very limited in many species because only a limited number of individuals were taken from the wild. Therefore the entire captive population is under threat because of the limited genetic diversity within the population. I know many breeders of endangered goodeids who have a breeding colony that comes originally from a pair or from 6 individuals to begin with. And these individuals came from the same parents. This will eventually lead to major inbreeding problems. (Such as what has happened with Cheetah populations) So if an individual was breed with a different species it could potentially add to the genetic diversity of a population. The only way to control and truly save a population would be to totally control all breeding as is done with some endangered species but not that I know of with most fish species.

This argument is totally hypothetical of course. I am not planning to breed and sell any hybrids. Although it would be interesting to investigate the effects I am not condoning or planning any of this.

 

[nmonks]

Hello guppymonkey --

The problem is that the first generation of hybrids would be not that colourful. What would you do with them? Dump them in the LFS, and someone else gets them. Can they be trusted not to sell them on, or breed them with other species?

You're right about genetic bottlenecks. People keeping these fish seriously tend to bring in new fish each time they see them in the shops, to add new genes to the colony. I certainly do that with my halfbeaks. With endangered species, there are usually networks of people who swap fish for the same effect.

There just isn't a compelling reason to hybridise these fish. There isn't a demand for them, and there's no scientific reason to try it out either.

Cheers, Neale

 

[guppymonkey]

I think there is an easy solution to getting rid of any less than desireable offspring. Keep a larger predatory fish! I know many people who breed livebearers as food fish that they can get for predatory fish and avoid the diseases and parasites that feeder fish often carry in pet stores. Obviously you could not expect all breeders to do this. There would probably be a market in fish keeping for any "ugly" hybrids, after all people buy parrot cichlids and flowerhorns.

 

[helterskelter]

Neale is right please do not cross breed species, as a rule if their in the same genus or have a similar body shape avoid, I always only keep one species per tank.

These fish are very rare in the hobby and were working to keeping the species and location data related to each gouge of fish we keeping and crosses could destroy the data we have. If we ever get the natural water back into good condition for some to be released then we do not was stray genes getting into the natural fish.

Just to say though Xenotoca and Characadon would not cross as far as i know, ones a lake fish and the other is a desert fish. genetically very different

 

[guppymonkey]

There is basically no chance of any release of endangered species back into the wild. For one its not cost effective and its hard to get any funding for fish. For another reason there is no reason to believe that the conditions in Central America will improve anytime soon to allow for cleanup of their water systems. Any wild populations are probably very far removed genetically from captive populations by now with the hundreds of generations between them (in many cases).

 

[helterskelter]

It's a long way but work being done in the "fish ark mexico" www.fisharkmexico.org almost all livebearers are currently being keped from known locations and dates.

If the day comes where all the carp and polluation is sorted then hopefully they will recover on their own.

But you never know if the day comes where we can help i would love to try.......

 

[guppymonkey]

Sorry I seemed harsh in that last post but even if captive populations are released wouldn't they have a major influence on any remaining wild populations? Captive bred fish are going to probably be larger than their wild counterparts and might have differing breeding behavior after generations in captivity. In captivity without the competition involved in breeding the breeding behavior itself will be influenced. I am not sure how possible it would be to aclimate fish to get them ready to be reintroduced to the wild the way they do with primates and other animals that are reintroduced. Anyways that is a different topic than hybridization. I don't think there would be much of a possibility of hybridized goodeids being introduced to waters that contain wild populations. Maybe some idiot would throw some into his local stream in Florida or some other mild area where they could survive in the wild but that wouldn't have an effect on the remaining few in central america.

 

[helterskelter]

It's not that harsh, but it's a good thing to talk about on a side note. Captive fish should never be resotcked into water where their are still native fish.

The to know extinct Goodeids Characodon garmani, Skiffia francesae have not been seen seen for over 30 years in the wild and their water studied on many occasions.

(As a extra side note: Characodon garmani was named from 1 female fish that was found, and no other fish has ever been found.)

Skiffia francesae is though being breed in the hobby buy a few people and has been so for the last 30 years, should they be restocked if the habbitat is clear of polluation and carp?

I personally would like to see something done. As long as it's deamed that the nateral population is no longer there ofcourse.
I dont think inbreeding is a major problem with most rare livebearers, and collection's from many breeding could be introduced to allow some out breeding to happen.

 

[guppymonkey]

The damage done from inbreeding would all depend on how many unrelated individuals the population started off with. I am not sure how many Skiffia francesae were originally collected from the wild but I have heard of some collections starting from as little as 6 individuals. In cases like that it would probably alter the species but save it at the same time by outbreeding with a closely related species and then slowly breeding back to as close to the original species as possible. Thats the only viable excuse for hybridizing the goodeids that I could think of. Any other reason is really just an excuse to play around with genetics just for fun.

 

[helterskelter]

Jim Langhammer is the sole reason these fish are sill with us today, I dont know what numbers he stared off with, but their such a stunning fish and i had a single pair to try my self, but should of know better as i know with 1 pair it's almost impossible to get them started.

But here in the uk there are 3-4 populations going, so maybe one day Fish Ark Mexico could do something.

 

[helterskelter]

The damage done from inbreeding would all depend on how many unrelated individuals the population started off with. I am not sure how many Skiffia francesae were originally collected from the wild but I have heard of some collections starting from as little as 6 individuals. In cases like that it would probably alter the species but save it at the same time by outbreeding with a closely related species and then slowly breeding back to as close to the original species as possible. Thats the only viable excuse for hybridizing the goodeids that I could think of. Any other reason is really just an excuse to play around with genetics just for fun.

Cross breeding with other species it increse numbers would destroy the lineage. I would never suggest crossing. some of these fish are from very small locations and have been fine breeidng together for many 100's of years.

Take Characodon lateralis, the red from Los Berros is a very rare fish only 1 in 100 males are red, but in the hobby their all red and if they not the rubbish fish.
Their true colour is a olive green and their stunning fish.
The spirng where their from is small (photo's in link below)
http/www.goodeiden.de/html/fundort20.html

The out flow of the spring dry's up about half a mile from the start so these are very limated and have nowhere to go.
If they can surive many 100's of years in these small locations with little harm then 30 years in the hobby between many people is a good start.