Freshwater Flounder?

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The relative proportions of the elements sodium, chlorine, magnesium etc in seawater depends on how you measure them, by weight or by concentration. By concentration, which is what actually matters from a biological perspective, sodium and chlorine are by far the most abundant elements (after hydrogen and oxygen of course), with magnesium, sulphur, potassium, and calcium being way, way less abundant than those two. All the other stuff, carbon, strontium, iodine, etc are present in seawater in tiny amounts.

Now, if you measure things by weight, the order becomes different because elements have different weights themselves, so potentially a rare but heavy element can be a larger proportion of the weight of seawater than its concentration (i.e., sheer abundance) might suggest. So chlorine, which is numerically less common in seawater than sodium, actually accounts for almost twice the weight of seawater than sodium does. This is because although chlorine is less common than sodium in the seawater, chlorine has almost twice the atomic weight.

In other words, when talking about what's "most important" in seawater you need to decide if you're talking about the weight of the elements or the concentration of those elements.

As to be bigger question of is salt required in a freshwater aquarium. Absolutely not. This is unambiguous. Just like carbon, it's something from the past that aquarists buy because advertisers tell them. It's cheap and promises a lot, so people buy the stuff. Just like carbon. It costs next to nothing to make and can be sold at a whacking great mark-up, meaning there's lots of profit. Just like carbon.

If you're asking does it do any harm, that's a difficult question to answer. Freshwater fish can often tolerate a bit of salt without any problems at all. Many major fish groups -- livebearers, cichlids, and killis for example -- are descended from marine fish and have some of the "marine hardware" still inside their bodies. Guppies can be adapted to twice normal seawater salinity, for example, and a variety of tilapia and Central American cichlids will breed quite happily in normal seawater. Even things like catfish and barbs have considerable salt tolerance in the wild and live in brackish waters, and there are even a few brackish water tetras (e.g., x-ray tetra) and gouramis (e.g., giant gourami).

But once you start looking at fishes that have become specialised to very narrow sets of water parameters, things get different. The classic example is Malawi Bloat, a problem with (surprise) Rift Valley cichlids where the owners have used sea salt in an attempt to harden the water. The result is organ damage and eventually death.

Adding tiny amounts of salt (the "teaspoon per 5 gallon" sorts of things) probably don't make any difference either way for most regular community fish. It may slightly offset the harm caused by nitrate accumulation in the water, but that would be better fixed using water changes and fast-growing plants. Tiny amounts of salt don't have any effect on fungus or whitespot, and treating those things is much safer and more reliable in most cases with standard medications. Any small benefits accrued by using salt are, in my opinion, outweighed by the potential damage caused to those fish intolerant of salt. Certainly fishes adapted to blackwater conditions as well as Rift Valley cichlids will not do well with the addition of salt and can potentially be harmed by it.

Cheers, Neale
 
I haven't seen any facts from the person I was arguing with.

Here it is. Dr. Wellfish's aquarium salt.

Helps by improving the gill function and reducing stress.

During stress and disease, healthy gill function (osmoregulation) is disturbed. This can lead to the loss of electrolytes through the gills (sometimes called osmotic shock). This reduces the intake of oxygen and release of carbon dioxide from the fish. Aquarium salt reduces electrolyte loss and promotes healthy gill function.

There straight from the box, which is sold in pet stores across the US. It's not an old technique or myth. It's a fact. Used everywhere. I worked at petsmart last year and every day we had to had cups of this salt to the sump pumps for the freshwater fish. Trust me you to don't know what your talking about, it's a common method of reducing stress from fish and keeping them healthy. You have the right to your opinions, wrong or not.
 
Actually they are.. Of all chain stores, petsmart has the healthiest fish. I've worked at petsmart, and petco among other fish stores. Including the "Aquarium Center" Ranked 2nd on the east coast.

THe Aquarium center, not a chain store used salt as well, and had just as healthy fish as petsmart, petco however was rancid, and ironically, they didn't use salt. Again I don't know where your from, but if your from Maryland and the east coast, I'm right, deal with it.
 
I haven't seen any facts from the person I was arguing with.
I'm not sure anyone advocating giving fish the same environment in the aquarium as they enjoy in the wild needs to prove their case. Keeping Rift Valley cichlids in hard, alkaline water or blackwater fish in soft, acid water is probably a pretty safe approach. That said, there are *some* fish that seem to need different conditions in the aquarium to those they enjoy in the wild. Bumblebee gobies for example inhabit (in some case) blackwater streams but seem to be easier to keep in brackish water. Mollies are primarily freshwater fish in the wild, but again, do well in brackish water. What still needs to be demonstrated is whether or not adding salt as a matter of course helps with definitely freshwater things like neons and angelfish. There's no evidence I'm aware of that it does.
Here it is. Dr. Wellfish's aquarium salt.
Dr. Wellfish -- bless his little cotton socks -- is in this game for the money. He sells activated carbon as well, something that is even less useful than salt. Look, candy bar companies and soda manufacturers will tell you their products are a useful part of a balanced diet. Few nutritionists would agree. People selling things have a vested interest in making those things sound useful to you.
Helps by improving the gill function and reducing stress.
Pretty vague things. Ever seen those adverts from the 1890s where people were selling magnetic hats and cocaine-laced baby food? Invariably they said things like "improves circulation" and "reduces stress". Snake-oil claims don't change, and provided people are ignorant of basic science (or even common sense for that matter) then people will sell this stuff.
During stress and disease, healthy gill function (osmoregulation) is disturbed. This can lead to the loss of electrolytes through the gills (sometimes called osmotic shock). This reduces the intake of oxygen and release of carbon dioxide from the fish. Aquarium salt reduces electrolyte loss and promotes healthy gill function.
As I've said elsewhere, as part of a therapy, salt may have value. It certainly can be used as a "drug". Sick people are put on saline drips, but that doesn't mean we should be drinking seawater every day. Besides, if you have a sick fish, then whether it lives or dies will have nothing to do with electrolytes. Clean water, proper diet, correct water chemistry -- these are the things that help, plus proper medication where appropriate.
There straight from the box, which is sold in pet stores across the US. It's not an old technique or myth. It's a fact. Used everywhere. I worked at petsmart last year and every day we had to had cups of this salt to the sump pumps for the freshwater fish. Trust me you to don't know what your talking about, it's a common method of reducing stress from fish and keeping them healthy. You have the right to your opinions, wrong or not.
Again, in specific cases over the short term adding salt may have value. In aquarium shops, where a certain loss of fish is acceptable and no fish is in stock for very long, adding salt may give benefits. It has a marginally useful effect on the spread of parasites and fungus. But compared with UV filtration, quarantining, etc adding salt will be a trivial activity. It may help profitability a small amount, but at the cost of stressing livestock in the long term. But since the fish will hopefully be sold in a few weeks, this doesn't matter as the fish won't have a chance to be sickened by the salt. In the home aquarium, where even a neon tetra can expect to live for 4 years, and angelfish for 10-12 years, long-term exposure to salt can be a stress factor. At tiny doses, probably not a major factor, but still worth considering.

The reason shops across the US (and the UK) sell aquarium salt is because it is cheap to make, carries a whacking great profit margin, but plays on the tendency of people to buy cheap solutions to problems instead of expensive ones. People could have much better water quality and less disease by spending $300 on a bigger filter and a UV sterliser, but instead opt for the $3 box of salt that says it will deliver exactly the same benefits. If salt really was a wonder drug vets would recommend it all the time, but they don't. Public aquaria don't add salt to their tanks. No professional fishkeeping writer recommends it as a matter of course. Scientists working in labs don't add salt to freshwater tanks, and neither do fish farmers raising strictly freshwater fish. Wild fish don't swim into estuaries when they are feeling sick, and where freshwater fish do inhabit brackish waters they are invariably less successful there than they are in freshwater habitats.

Feel free to buy and use salt. At best, it's doing nothing, and worst harming your fish by a small amount that deaths probably come from other causes anyway. But me, I consider tonic salt simply one of the classic "snake oils" of the hobby.

Cheers, Neale
 
"Dr. Wellfish -- bless his little cotton socks -- is in this game for the money. He sells activated carbon as well, something that is even less useful than salt. Look, candy bar companies and soda manufacturers will tell you their products are a useful part of a balanced diet. Few nutritionists would agree. People selling things have a vested interest in making those things sound useful to you."

What socks? your just confusing. Ok I'll put it this way, and I'm leaving it at this because you guys apparently don't want to learn anything new about fish care. But here in the section of america that I live in, salt is a healthy addition to a freshwater tank in small levels, and our fish seem to enjoy it and thrive more when it's added as apposed to not being added. Maybe it's different in the rest of the world, but here on the east coast of the USA they like it and gain many benefits from it being added to a tank. Enjoy your possibly faulty fishkeeping.
 
The socks are a figure of speech. Difficult to translate, but it's sort of affectionate but patronising at the same time.

As for what the East Coast thinks, all I can say is the the East Coast fishkeeping magazine I write for, Tropical Fish Hobbyist in New Jersey, certainly does not recommend adding salt to freshwater aquaria as a standard addititive.

And suggesting I'm not interested in learning is silly. Look, I have a first class honours degree in marine zoology; a PhD; I've been a marine biologist and palaeontologist; written over a dozen scientific papers and a couple of academic books; I write for TFH, PFK, and a bunch of other fishkeeping magazines and web sites; and of course I have my own book out now on brackish water fish. Over twenty plus years of fishkeeping I've kept just about every brackish water fish and continually read scientific papers on brackish water fish. So I do try and keep up on the subject.

Cheers, Neale

"Dr. Wellfish -- bless his little cotton socks -- is in this game for the money. He sells activated carbon as well, something that is even less useful than salt. Look, candy bar companies and soda manufacturers will tell you their products are a useful part of a balanced diet. Few nutritionists would agree. People selling things have a vested interest in making those things sound useful to you."
What socks? your just confusing. Ok I'll put it this way, and I'm leaving it at this because you guys apparently don't want to learn anything new about fish care. But here in the section of america that I live in, salt is a healthy addition to a freshwater tank in small levels, and our fish seem to enjoy it and thrive more when it's added as apposed to not being added. Maybe it's different in the rest of the world, but here on the east coast of the USA they like it and gain many benefits from it being added to a tank. Enjoy your possibly faulty fishkeeping.
 
"Dr. Wellfish -- bless his little cotton socks -- is in this game for the money. He sells activated carbon as well, something that is even less useful than salt. Look, candy bar companies and soda manufacturers will tell you their products are a useful part of a balanced diet. Few nutritionists would agree. People selling things have a vested interest in making those things sound useful to you."

What socks? your just confusing. Ok I'll put it this way, and I'm leaving it at this because you guys apparently don't want to learn anything new about fish care. But here in the section of america that I live in, salt is a healthy addition to a freshwater tank in small levels, and our fish seem to enjoy it and thrive more when it's added as apposed to not being added. Maybe it's different in the rest of the world, but here on the east coast of the USA they like it and gain many benefits from it being added to a tank. Enjoy your possibly faulty fishkeeping.
I don't see how you can by-pass Nmonks whole post to say "What socks? your just confusing." .How pathetic...Then you go onto say "here on the east coast of the USA they like it and gain many benefits from it being added to a tank.".Do you think you are different to everyone in the world, that you control the whole of the east coast fishkeepers opinion on salts in aquariums because you were clever enough to read some writing on a box...

Neale certainly explained it to the finest detail to prove to you that salt is pointless in being added to freshwater aquariums, still if you actually read it you would know that you were wrong.I'm amazed by your knowledge Neale!
 
Nmonks is one of the most, if not the most, formally educated aquarist on Tropical Fish Forums. I have yet to see any statements he makes of any consequence concerning aquatics not backed up by scientific studies. You could learn a lot from him, I have, and am sure I will continue to do so. You should be more appreciative that someone with his knowledge will take the time to explain why you are wrong. I personally would have no problem having someone of Neale's level of knowledge correcting me if, and when, I am wrong.

But here in the section of america that I live in, salt is a healthy addition to a freshwater tank in small levels, and our fish seem to enjoy it and thrive more when it's added as apposed to not being added. Maybe it's different in the rest of the world, but here on the east coast of the USA they like it and gain many benefits from it being added to a tank. Enjoy your possibly faulty fishkeeping.

I breed angels for fun and a little profit, and the only thing that gets salt added to it is the bbs hatchery. Steve Rybiki, owner of Angels Plus, http://www.angelsplus.com/ is in upstate New York, East Coast. He breeds fish for breeders who are developing their own breeding program, all the fish he sells are breeder quality. He doesn't add salt to his tanks, neither do most breeders I know of. I don't have a huge setup, 20 some tanks. I deal with breeders who have anywhere from a few to 300 tanks. When a breeder with 300 tanks who has been breeding since the '60's doesn't advocate the use of salt, it is something you have to listen to.

I know an angel breeder who was in Maryland, I haven't contacted him in a few years. I think I'll drop him a litte note, just to ask about salt & angels.
 
I find it difficult to see how anyone can read this thread without spending the entire day laughing to themselves. Just to point out to OrganizedChaos69 (of which the second part seems to fit best), that despite the fact that the only evidence you can provide other than 'well I think it makes the fish better so there' (and I've never used it and I've had no problems, so there) is that funnily enough it's reccomended by the manufacturer. Well, duh. Who on earth sells a product with a blurb saying 'well, it has no proper effects worth mentioning, so it's up to you whether you want to waste £3 on something you might as well put on your chips'. I've been assured, for example, by Hagen, one of the biggest companies, that goldfish grow to an average of 9cm. That's from their chief vet, apparently. And of course, it's got to be true, even though any idiot can prove them wrong, because Hagen said it. The advert for some electro-stimulation thing of acupunture points on your wrist which apparently helps weighloss had the odd addition of 'could' in the description, along with 'along with exercise and a calorie controlled diet'. Again, a wrong claim, but the advert makes it sound true.
 
I think someone is floundering about on the east coast, I always add salt to fish when its cooked not to much, don’t much like the taste of too many electrolytes and I don’t want to get osmotic shock, I recommend this to everyone!
Back on topic the flounders may consider themselves freshwater but they don’t know what they are missing, add salt as per Dr Sickfish’s instructions and they will thank you for it.
 
Some information that I have recovered about salts from some of my books:

Sea salt contains these elements (milligrams per liter)
Element MpL Abrev.
Chlorine 18980 Cl
Sodium 18980 Na
Magnesium 10561 Mg
Sulphur 884 S
Calcium 400 Ca
Potassium 380 K
Bromine 65 Br
Carbon 28 C
Strontium 13 Sr
Boron 4.6 B
Silicon 3.8 Si
Flourine 1.4 F
Nitrogen 0.78 N
Aluminum 0.5 Al
Rubidium 0.2 Ru
Lithium 0.1 Li
Phosphorus 0.1 P
Barium 0.05 Ba
Iodine 0.05 I
Zinc 0.05 Zn
Arsenic 0.01 As
Manganese 0.02 Mn
Copper 0.0001 Cu
Lead 0.0005 Pb
Selenium 0.0004 Se
The list goes on but I don't want to type that all out. :lol:

Aquarium salts is a compound of Sodium (Na) and Chlorine (Cl).
They form small cubic cystals. These cystals form by ionic bonding of the sodium and chlorine ions.

Flounder are actually brackish fish and must have salt after 3 to 5 months of birth. From what I read they can happily survive in marine salt water of a SG of 1.020.

You may now pick all over my thread if you feel nessessary :p
 
Flounder are actually brackish fish and must have salt after 3 to 5 months of birth. From what I read they can happily survive in marine salt water of a SG of 1.020.

You may now pick all over my thread if you feel nessessary :p
The only thing I would point out, is the posts made at the top of the thread by Fella and nmonks, in which it is explained there are a few species of Flounder that live their entire life in FW and as such do not require salt, though whether keeping them in low end brackish environments (SG 1.003 to 1.005)would cause any harm, I am not sure.
 

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