Flashing

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One last question before i leave you in peace. Say by the weekend it is no better/it is worse and i decide to go down the salt and high temp line, do i just put the full quantity of salt in with the water change or do i gradually add it over the course of 48 hours? I could imagine all in one go could discomfort the fish - the same way some people 'burn' if they go in a particularly salty ocean...

Thank you for the fast, well informed and coherent responses. These fish dont half worry me! By keeping them in a tank which is by no means close to their natural habitat i worry about them so much. When we keep them happy they reward us with attention and by looking great...

I followed Dr. Monks' advice so I will use that, as it certainly worked for me with no problems I could see. Do a major water change (50%), raising the temperature some with warmer water, plus turn up the heaters. Over a day perhaps the temp will get up to the 30C. I keep my tanks around 24-25C normally, so I raised the temp by around 3 degrees with the water change and let the heaters do the remainder.

Add the salt gradually; it has to be completely dissolved in water (never add salt crystals). I did this by adding a teaspoon of salt to a jar of water, shake until completely dissolved, then pour it in. I used hot water so it also raised the temp a tad, and the salt dissolves better. Spread this out over several hours, say half a day. I couldn't weigh the salt, so I used Neale's calculation that a level teaspoon of aquarium salt is approximately 6 grams. You want 2 grams per liter, so 1 level teaspoon is 3 liters of tank water. Remember to calculate the tank volume taking into consideration the displacement by substrate, wood, etc.

Once you have the salt in and heat raised, leave it for a week. Do the regular partial water change and add salt only for the amount of water replaced. Keep this for another week. Then you can turn the heater back down, let the tank cool naturally, and do another normal water change which will remove some of the salt. The future water changes will eventually remove all of the salt.
 
I followed Dr. Monks' advice so I will use that, as it certainly worked for me with no problems I could see. Do a major water change (50%), raising the temperature some with warmer water, plus turn up the heaters. Over a day perhaps the temp will get up to the 30C. I keep my tanks around 24-25C normally, so I raised the temp by around 3 degrees with the water change and let the heaters do the remainder.

Add the salt gradually; it has to be completely dissolved in water (never add salt crystals). I did this by adding a teaspoon of salt to a jar of water, shake until completely dissolved, then pour it in. I used hot water so it also raised the temp a tad, and the salt dissolves better. Spread this out over several hours, say half a day. I couldn't weigh the salt, so I used Neale's calculation that a level teaspoon of aquarium salt is approximately 6 grams. You want 2 grams per liter, so 1 level teaspoon is 3 liters of tank water. Remember to calculate the tank volume taking into consideration the displacement by substrate, wood, etc.

Once you have the salt in and heat raised, leave it for a week. Do the regular partial water change and add salt only for the amount of water replaced. Keep this for another week. Then you can turn the heater back down, let the tank cool naturally, and do another normal water change which will remove some of the salt. The future water changes will eventually remove all of the salt.

Thank you for the imformative answer. As i said ill do another good water change tomorrow and then when ut gets to saturday of still no improvements i shall start treating from there.

Thank you once again, and also for your cander in not making me feel like an idiot!

Fingers crossed for me please :) I'll post on here on saturday and then subsequent weeks so that if anybody else has something similar then they can use it as a guide :)
 
I followed Dr. Monks' advice so I will use that, as it certainly worked for me with no problems I could see. Do a major water change (50%), raising the temperature some with warmer water, plus turn up the heaters. Over a day perhaps the temp will get up to the 30C. I keep my tanks around 24-25C normally, so I raised the temp by around 3 degrees with the water change and let the heaters do the remainder.

Add the salt gradually; it has to be completely dissolved in water (never add salt crystals). I did this by adding a teaspoon of salt to a jar of water, shake until completely dissolved, then pour it in. I used hot water so it also raised the temp a tad, and the salt dissolves better. Spread this out over several hours, say half a day. I couldn't weigh the salt, so I used Neale's calculation that a level teaspoon of aquarium salt is approximately 6 grams. You want 2 grams per liter, so 1 level teaspoon is 3 liters of tank water. Remember to calculate the tank volume taking into consideration the displacement by substrate, wood, etc.

Once you have the salt in and heat raised, leave it for a week. Do the regular partial water change and add salt only for the amount of water replaced. Keep this for another week. Then you can turn the heater back down, let the tank cool naturally, and do another normal water change which will remove some of the salt. The future water changes will eventually remove all of the salt.

Ive had a brainwave. I just tested my tank KH and its at 4 degrees using a JBL LH test where you add drops to a quantity of tank water until the colour changes.. Which means there isnt going to be much pH buffering and the fluctuations can definitely mess with the fish although im still a little confused as to why the pH is being read so high? But to be honest im going to ignore the pH for now. If ive got a low KH then chances are the pH is fluctuating which is bad for the fishies. Im going to start mixing ro with conditioned tap water (14 degrees KH)50/50 which if my maths is correct should take it to around 9 degrees roughly after a few weeks worth of changes. This should buffer it nicely and both cherry barbs and sterbai will be happy.

If the pH is fluctuating then this could iritate the barbs gills (cherry barbs are notoriously difficult to spot gill issues as the skin is translucent so healthy gills still give them rosy cheeks), so my theory is that then when they eating if a bit of food brushes the irritation that would make them flash which is why i see the significant increase at feeding time.

Especially as i have removed limestone, done big water changes and Indian Almond leaves are in the tank then i bet theres been enough fluctuation to discomfort them.

So my plan is to do weekly 50% water changes with 50/50 RO (which with the minerals is at 6 degrees, so the solution of them both should be around 9-10 which i shall test to make sure it is this value) as this should raise the kH gradually.

Im only going to add salt and heat if the symptoms get worse (ie all flashing regularly, or spots appear)
 
I read through this thread and saw no mention of pH fluctuations. The only mention of pH has it at 7.5. A KH of 4 degrees is not high certainly, but is going to provide some pH buffering. You should do a series of pH tests over a few days to ascertain just what is or isn't occurring. You want the pH of the source water (I assume RO at present), and the tank. Test the tank water at the same time each day you test; there is a normal diurnal fluctuation. You could test twice daily, once in the early morning (meaning, when the tank light has come on), and once in the evening (when tank light is about to go off). This will give you the diurnal fluctuation. Done over a few days you will see how consistent it is.

I would expect from the data that your pH will be acidic (below 7). The limestone rock would raise it, which may explain the 7.5 reading. The above tests will hopefully sort this out.
 
I read through this thread and saw no mention of pH fluctuations. The only mention of pH has it at 7.5. A KH of 4 degrees is not high certainly, but is going to provide some pH buffering. You should do a series of pH tests over a few days to ascertain just what is or isn't occurring. You want the pH of the source water (I assume RO at present), and the tank. Test the tank water at the same time each day you test; there is a normal diurnal fluctuation. You could test twice daily, once in the early morning (meaning, when the tank light has come on), and once in the evening (when tank light is about to go off). This will give you the diurnal fluctuation. Done over a few days you will see how consistent it is.

I would expect from the data that your pH will be acidic (below 7). The limestone rock would raise it, which may explain the 7.5 reading. The above tests will hopefully sort this out.

Sorry byron i have a habit of getting carried away when i think ive figured it out. Ill stick to the plan you helped me devise only with these measurements to be taken everyday. I wont start mixing my water until im 100% sure its causing the issues :( sorry for not just listening to you.

I shall just follow the initial advice. Atleast i have i have a plan to follow now, and contingencies.

Thank you for your patience with me
 
I read through this thread and saw no mention of pH fluctuations. The only mention of pH has it at 7.5. A KH of 4 degrees is not high certainly, but is going to provide some pH buffering. You should do a series of pH tests over a few days to ascertain just what is or isn't occurring. You want the pH of the source water (I assume RO at present), and the tank. Test the tank water at the same time each day you test; there is a normal diurnal fluctuation. You could test twice daily, once in the early morning (meaning, when the tank light has come on), and once in the evening (when tank light is about to go off). This will give you the diurnal fluctuation. Done over a few days you will see how consistent it is.

I would expect from the data that your pH will be acidic (below 7). The limestone rock would raise it, which may explain the 7.5 reading. The above tests will hopefully sort this out.

Ok so update time. Big 60% water change on wednesday. KH is at 5.

pH measurements have been consistent, but confusing.

So in the morning my high range pH test (API master test kit) has been 7.4. No higher. Its bang on the same colour.

Just after the lights have gone off at night it is nearer to the 7.8 colour.

That isnt the confusing bit. The confusing bit is that the standard API pH test has never moved from the 7.6 colour blue - even for the test showing 7.4 on high range. I know if the pH is higher than 7.6 then it will still be the same colour. Same way if its lower than 7.4 on the high range then itll stay the same colour.

Testing the source water pH shows that the test does work and isnt just a dodgy bottle.

Im wondering why my pH is still higher than the source water? Ive done 3 50% changes since saturday last.

I have 3 rocks in my tank which look like normal rock... Im confident theyre inert - im friends with the manager at my LFS and hes insistent they only stock rockware that wont react with the water. I trust him on this - he gives good advice. I dont trust his staff one bit but i really trust him

Other things in tank: substrate is JBL sansibar red sand. Its marketed as not affecting pH or hardness

This cave ornament thing: Rosewood Cave Complex Aquarium Ornament, Small https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00ZRX3PL6/?tag=

A lump of driftwood.

Its currently not as heavily planted as id like. 2 ozelot swords, 2 anubias nanas, a single bacopa which has been pruned and replanted 7 times... So its more like a bunch of bacopa... Some pretty large water fern (dont know the name) and just under 1 third of the surface is covered by amazon frogbit.


My only other thought of the higher pH could be if theres phosphates? I had to replace my fiter 6 weeks ago and one of the foam pads is constructed from a pad in my old filter which wasnt very clean and i havent cleaned the filter yet since running because i was paranoid about my tank cycling.

I rinse the pads every few weeks.

As to the fish health:

Still active and feeding and are all their usual selves. Great colour on all them. No whitespot. Ive only seen the one fish flash but that was an isolated occasion/potentially knocking algae off a leaf (nibble nibble nibble flash nibble nibble etc. All on the same leaf)

The one fish that flashes still flashes after i feed him flake! Ive tested other foods. Had 3 days with no flashing. Feed a tiny pinch of flake and he flashes.

As flake is relatively inexpensive and the stuff i use is 9 months old im going to try some new stuff. Any recommendations?

At this point im not concerned about parasites/ich. I think something in the water (probably whats raising the pH) has irritated that fish's gills. And as flake breals up into such small bits im wondering if some gets in his gills and annoys him?

As to other fish flashing previously - ive only ever seen them do it AFTER the other fish has. My cherry barbs imitate every thing. They copy the cories when they rustle for food. If one cory darts to the surface for air then all of the cherry barbs copy the cory - they swim the exact same line, dart at exactly the same speed etc. They never do it unless a cpry has just done it... So i wonder if the others had imitated the flashing?

Or it could be a territorial thing? The one who flashes most is 100% the top dog. Beautiful deep red colour, by far the biggest (a 2 inch male cherry barb is quite the spectacle), he flairs his fins a lot at the other males too... So maybe hes doing it in a similar way cichlids do?
 
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To add, with todays water change ill clear out the filter and give it a proper clean in tank water to make sure theres no organics/detritus hanging around in it. I know not to clean it too hard etc :)
 
On the pH. A rise in pH during daylight (= tank light on period) is normal, especially with plants. A few decimal places is fine, I have this too. It occurs in nature as well.

As for being higher than the source, what is the source water pH (remember to out-gas the CO2 on tap water)?

The rock...in post # 19 I called it "limestone rock," was that just my guess, or is it limestone? If the latter, it will raise pH, GH and KH though probably not a great deal.

What makes you think there are high phosphates? A dirty filter would tend to do the opposite, the organics would breakdown producing CO2, lowering pH. Usually not by a lot in my experience, but it can make a difference.

Flashing. I wouldn't worry from what you've described. It is not a behaviourial thing. I set out the possible causes earlier (I think). Food (unless it gets stuck in the gills) isn't related, but that does bring up another issue. Dried food open for 9 months is getting old. I keep my foods in the freezer once opened, because I buy larger containers; I take out a bit now and then into a smaller container (same brand/type so I don't get confused ????).

I use Omega One and New Life Spectrum prepared (dry) foods. Neither of these have "meals" in them so they are nutritionally healthier (so I'm advised).

My upper fish get NLS flake, Omega One Veggie flake and shrimp flake. I alternate each day so never the same food for three days. The substrate fish get Omega One shrimp pellets and Veggie Rounds. My third sinking food varies.

Byron.
 
Source water is 7.2 when left for 24 hours with an airstone.


What made me think phosphates? Clutching at straws haha. No idea why the pH in my tank is higher but to be honest its stable so im not going to worry.

The sterbai are happy and breeding, and i saw the alpha cherry barb breed with the lady today too.


I think i may have found the root cause of irritation (if there was any) this evening...


I used to have a blue led strip and if i filled the tank up slightly higher than nornally it would be partially submerged. Noticed today that it had white fluffy mould on it... Potential root cause?

I also bought new flake this morning and thought i should seal and freeze most of it. Got omega one and spiralinum or something??

Glad that i did something right! I think the fact its been over 2 weeks with this 'flashing' with no other symptoms makes me think it could just be my fish... Some quick googling seems its quite common with cherry barbs? Flashing with no other symptoms... How bizarre. Ill monitor it closely.

Oh and on the pH point... I took read8ngs at the end of the day (8 hours of lights). Id done the water change this morning. So my end of day reading was between 7.4 and 7.6 using the normal API pH test which is the lowest ive recorded in the tank despite being the end of the day. This now gives me something to monitor :) itll be interesting to see if it goes down over night like normal, but if it goes back to what my previous morning after tests have been then theres something raising it to a plateau of 7.6ish


Thanks for your help as always. And thank you for stopping me from medicating!!
 
Not sure about the white fluff on the LED. But I would not have LED lights in the water (I know some are made for this, still not a good idea to me). Also, blue light is likely to encourage algae.

Monitor the pH, post results. The rise is not sufficient to be troublesome, but still could be the rock.
 
Yeh ive binned the lights. Ive never used them really anyway! Ok cool i wont post at the first sign of a change. Probably on friday :) that way ill have noticed any trends.
 
PH has been staying constantly around 7.4-7.6. So i out gassed my source water by leaving in a bucket - in all honesty i hadnt done it for a while. The pH matched the tank :)

Fish are still doing v. Well. My concern has gone :) still the odd flash but no other symptoms...

Gonna give it another 2 weeks before increasing the cherry barb numbers :)

Thanks for the advice @Byron
I may never know the cause, but thanks for pushing me away from panic medication..
 
PH has been staying constantly around 7.4-7.6. So i out gassed my source water by leaving in a bucket - in all honesty i hadnt done it for a while. The pH matched the tank :)

Fish are still doing v. Well. My concern has gone :) still the odd flash but no other symptoms...

Gonna give it another 2 weeks before increasing the cherry barb numbers :)

Thanks for the advice @Byron
I may never know the cause, but thanks for pushing me away from panic medication..

Sounding pretty good. Clean water and patience are still the preferred methods in many situations.:fish:
 
Sometimes fish just flash.

Sometimes I think they do it to kick stuff off the bottom.
 
Just incase anybody manages to find this thread when searching the issue is SOLVED.

solution:
Lots of water changes and patience. I really think something was up as now they never flash. I may never know what it is but next time something similar happens I'll just follow the same method...


It meant the cherry barb numbers could be increased, but the seller accidentally sent me a juvenile thicklip gourami rather than the barbs but hey ho
 

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