Cycling With Or Without Plants - Debating The Merits Of Each

This site hates me. I have a very detailed reply I created in Word. It has a lot of quotes to from studies and links to them as well as my observations etc. I have tried to copy and paste and the site wont let me post it. I get a message saying there are too many blocks of quotes. It also seems not to like Word formatting and changes it.
 
I simply do not have the energy to try and make a series of posts to get it all in and I can't upload it elsewhere as I have no site of my own.
 
I welcome any suggestions and will can email the Word document to anybody who is more net savvy than me who feels they could get it to post. if you can help, shoot me a PM.
 
I spent several days on finding the research included and composing the dang thing. I hate to lose all that good time and not present some relevant information. I will make one observation from it:
 
"[SIZE=12pt]I did find a few papers on aquatic plants and bacteria but I had to use the terms hydrophytes or macrophytes instead of aquatic plants in the searches."[/SIZE]
 
Hydrophyte- a plant that grows in water or very moist ground; an aquatic plant.
A macrophyte is an aquatic plant that grows in or near water and is either emergent, submergent, or floating.
 
I will also state again for the record that I have cycled many tanks with plants present. I have needed a combination of bacteria and live plants in the tanks to handle the nitrogen cycle. I dosed ammonia and I left the lights on and I had no algae. The reason for this was simple, I used a different ammonia dosing regimin than I would for a fishless cycle with no plants. Like anything else in this hobby, one can't assume that almost anything is universal. The key to cycling with plants present from the start is knowing how to adjust one's ammonia additions to prevent algae.
 
A silent cycle means one does not get readings for ammonia, nitrite and likely nitrate either. What it does not mean is that the cycle is being handled exclusively by plants and there are no nitrifying autotrophs at work. My unposted reply shows why this is the case. :(
 
My understanding of nitrifying bacteria is that they will not be affected by daily fluctuations in ammonia concentration. If they were then this would be a known problem in almost any planted tank. During the fishless cycle I imagine the bacteria will establish a colony according to the average ammonia available over a period of time and by the end of the cycle this population should be well enough established to adapt quickly to any changes. I can't visualise a scenario where there might be disastrous results, can you explain?
I see where your coming from, but bacteria do work a bit differently to this.  Individual bacterium are constantly being grown over/consumed and reproducing in biofilm on the filter media, the more easily food is available to them (higher the ppm ammonia), the faster they will reproduce to make up for the displacement by other species in the biofilm/cell death, the less food available to them (lower ppm), the slower they will reproduce. 
 
The aim of a fishless cycle is certainly to build up an average count of established bacteria that can process exactly 3ppm ammonia, since with sporadic dosages, your never going to get the perfect count for 3ppm. However, you can't have an exact amount of bacteria for an average ppm of ammonia, the bacteria populations will vary depending on the ppm and other factors.
 
The reason these fluctuations in bacteria aren't a problem in established/mature (loosely-defined key words here!) planted tanks is that no established planted tanks will have a massive jump of ammonia concentration to 3ppm,  toxic ammonia is released steadily throughout the day from fish respiration and decomposition.  This fluctuating and very dilute concentration of ammonia isn't toxic to the plants or fish and is readily taken up by the plants in huge preference to nitrates normally supplied by fertiliser or bacteria.  So if there's a small ammonia spike, the plants can essentially leave the nitrates alone until the ammonia is gone.
 
Now, when it comes to non-established planted tanks (the only setting I would consider these tiny daily fluctuations important), unfortunately there are threads upon threads of examples on planted forums of tanks that have on-going problems due to ammonia fluctuations. Ammonia is the #1 suspect when someone has trouble with melting plants and algae, its often seen when scapers set up a new tank with not enough plant mass, or poorly chosen species that don't adapt fast enough to the new set up.
 
The potential disastrous results could be for the newbie, who for example, has a tank full of nice healthy plants at first (out of luck), before performing a full fishless cycle, believing they have attained a filter full of bacteria. They then proceed to add a large stock of fish all at once.  All seems well....until the plants start to suffer any nutrient deficiencies, algae infestation, eaten by fish or if the lights are left off for whatever reason - and all of these could easily happen due to a newbie mistake, or if they just don't bother to learn about plant health. Then they could get an ammonia spike enough to kill fish and/or melt plants, leading to a chain reaction.
 
I have to agree with TwoTankAmin on this. Performing a 'silent cycle' is a huge ask for a beginner or even an intermediate-level fishkeeper.
For a beginner "fishkeeper" maybe, but it really shouldn't be for someone aiming to have a high-tech planted tank!
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 If it is a huge ask - then they shouldn't be going for a planted tank in the first place!
 
A "silent cycle" is actually very easy, its just about choosing the right plants and then keeping them healthy. If you are the new owner of a high-tech planted tank, like the OP with CO2 injection, you are better learning how to keep your plants healthy sooner rather than later anyway, otherwise the plants will become unhealthy ...so what's the point in spending money on plants and injecting CO2, unless you want them to be healthy? 
 
The CO2 increases nutrient demand, so unless they are fertilising, they are very likely to get deficient plants.  That's why I recommended they remove the CO2 unit, and while they are at it they may as well remove the plants as this will give them more bacteria for their ammonia. More bacteria=more robust established colony.  You can leave your plants in a cycling tank if you don't care
 
Incidentally, I find the instructions "fill about 75% of the substrate area with plants, include some fast-growing hardy species, dose fertiliser once a week after a water change, and add only a few fish per week" very simple compared to the fishless cycling article and process!
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  Fishless cycling involves doing lots of water tests and ppm calculations for ammonia - tbh I find that a huge ask for newbies!
 
If you are aiming to have a fully planted tank, then you are going to have to learn to keep plants healthy anyway - why not do it at the start before you run in to trouble with melting plants, deficiencies or algae?
 
For me, what methods best depends where your priorities lie, I just see no value in compromising between the two approaches for a beginner, to do so would be relying on the luck of what plant species they choose, how much nutrients are in their tap water etc, etc...  In other words, I think beginners should cut out as many variables as possible. It makes it easier for them to actually understand what's going on in the tank.

TwoTankAmin said:
This site hates me. I have a very detailed reply I created in Word. It has a lot of quotes to from studies and links to them as well as my observations etc. I have tried to copy and paste and the site wont let me post it. I get a message saying there are too many blocks of quotes. It also seems not to like Word formatting and changes it.
 
I simply do not have the energy to try and make a series of posts to get it all in and I can't upload it elsewhere as I have no site of my own.
 
That's a shame, especially since you know I went through the effort of editing my text to allow the quotes, as you can see above. Have a coffee maybe?  Although unless you directly answer the questions I asked you, or refute any of my points, I wont take your reply seriously.
 
 
What it does not mean is that the cycle is being handled exclusively by plants and there are no nitrifying autotrophs at work.
Well yeah, nobody has ever even implied that in this thread
rolleyes.gif
.
 
Above the line "You can leave your plants in a cycling tank if you don't care" was meant to be finished with "about the health of the plants, or adding a full load of fish at the end of the cycle".
 
Three I could not care less if you take me seriously or not. Your opinion of me has no effect on the science here. but you have gotten me upset enough to make the effort to get the onformation here.
 
But while you are waiting go do some more reading on nitrifying bacteria and a bit on archaea as well. In the world of autotophic nitrifying bacteria the strains basically fall into three road groups: those that dominate in the lowest levels of ammonia, those that dominate in medium levels and those that thrive in the highest levels. Which ones dominate depend upon the general levels of ammonia. In 2005 with the discovery of ammonia oxidizing archaea this effectively became 4 groups because the archaea are able to thrive at the lowest levels of ammonia. Lower than any of the nitrifying bacteria.
 
In aquariums the levels of ammonia are low and what you will find are archaea, low ammonia loving strains of bacteria and a number of medium level ones. There are a few because some will manage to survive in case ammonia levels rise and they can take advantage, but they will be far from dominating or carrying a serious amount of the load Similarly, nitrospira dominate at lower nitrite levels (in tanks) and nitrobacter winogradskyi at higher levels.
 
This is why one is advised not to allow ammonia or nitrite to exceed 5 ppm measured as nitrogen. This will stall a cycle and, as it rises from there, kills the bacteria we want for our tanks. However, the medium and higher level ammonia lovering strains will soon be thriving at these levels. Clearly your understanding of the nitrifying bacteria is a bit deficient. I have spent the past few years reading many research papers and articles on this subject and have quite a few bookmarked. I would be more than happy to send you a couple of dozen links if want?
 
One interesting explanation of the various groupings of AOB by ammonia levels is contained in Cr. Hovanec's patent filing for his One and Only nitrifying bacteria. it is based on his published research but is a bit less technical.
 
At any rate I will end this post and start to work on putting the good stuff in place.
 
[SIZE=12pt]Yes, but they are talking about a completely different scenario.  This scenario has no light, no algae and lots of aeration around terrestrial plant roots.  Please think about the relevance of a study before you link to it.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]There is no light around the roots of aquatic plants that root in nature or substrate either. Land plants have fungi that aquatic plants don’t. And just like some aquatic plants do not root in any form of soil or substrate (notably floaters), so do some terrestrial plants (think orchids). [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Both types also grow in oxygen rich and oxygen poor environments in terms of soil/substrate. I found much research on this but here is one good example:[/SIZE]
 
Oxygen content and soil compaction on root penetration [SIZE=12pt]Gleditsia triacanthos [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]var. inermis seedlings were field planted in compacted and non-compacted soil in both normal oxygen and reduced oxygen soil atmosphere. Entire root systems were excavated and mapped. Compaction caused significantly shallower roots in normal and reduced oxygen areas. Roots in the reduced oxygen area were not significantly shallower than in normal oxygen areas. Root spread was correlated with stem diameter and branch spread. Lateral roots extended three times as far from the trunk as did the branches. [/SIZE]
from http://www.hriresearch.org/Docs/Publications/JEH/JEH_1987/JEH_1987_5_1/JEH%205-1-33-36.pdf
 
[SIZE=12pt]What you will also find is in oxygen poor substrates, aquatic plants move O to the roots. In fact, some of this O is actually released from the roots to oxygenate the substrate which supplies O to the nitrifying bacteria. Looks a lot less like competition and a bit more like “cooperation”. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Functions of macrophytes in constructed wetlands Root Release of Oxygen[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]It is well documented that aquatic macrophytes release oxygen from their roots into the rhizosphere. Oxygen leakage to the rhizosphere is important in constructed wetlands with subsurface flow for aerobic degradation of oxygen-consuming substances and nitrification. Most studies on root, oxygen release have been done using oxygen micro-electrodes to measure radial oxygen losses from individual roots in oxygen-depleted solutions (Armstrong, 1967; Laan et al., 1989). The rates of oxygen release in wetland plants are generally highest in the sub-apical region of roots and decrease with‘ distance from the root apex (Armstrong, 1979).[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Oxygen release from fine laterals at the base of roots can be significant, [/SIZE]
from http://mit.biology.au.dk/~biohbn/cv/pdf_files/Wat_Sci_Tech_29%20(1994)%2071-78.pdf
 
[SIZE=12pt]Obviously, land and submerged plants are not totally identical in all respects, however, most of the processes involved are common to both. The biggest difference is in the need for water. Aquatic plants have no need to conserve water, they are surrounded by it. The result is leaf stomatas are open all the time. Land plants cannot do this as it would result in water loss. But both types of plants must uptake water to survive. Another difference is in the light intensity available for each. Water acts to reduce intensity, so aquatic plants can thrive on less light than land plants which get much more.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]It is not correct to claim aquatic plants get all they need from leaf feeding either. Research abounds on this topic. Similarly, land plants are not limited to root feeding. But they get fewer nutrients vie their leaves naturally than can aquatic plants. There are simply more nutrients and water in water than in air.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Short-time response in root morphology of Vallisneria natans to sediment type and water-column nutrient [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Root weight ratio, root:leaf mass ratio and root:leaf length ratio generally decreased with enhanced nutrient availability in sediment or water. Plant growth was affected by sediment type alone (P < 0.05), rather than water-column nutrient (P > 0.05). However, plant N and P contents were significantly impacted by both sediment type (P ≤ 0.001) and water-column nutrient (P < 0.05). Increase of nutrient availability in sediment or water led to increased plant N (ranged from 2.47 to 4.77 mg g−1) and P concentrations (ranged from 42.8 to 62.0 mg g−1). These results indicate that considerable variation in root morphology of V. natans exists in response to the fertility of the sediment it is rooted in. [/SIZE]
from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304377004001822
 
[SIZE=12pt]But let us look at the major broad processes involved with plant growth etc.:[/SIZE]
 
 
[SIZE=12pt]The three major functions that are basic to plant growth and development are:[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=12pt]Photosynthesis – [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The process of capturing light energy and converting it to sugar energy, in the presence of chlorophyll using carbon dioxide and water.[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=12pt]Respiration – [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The process of metabolizing (burning) sugars to yield energy for growth, reproduction, and other life processes.[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=12pt]Transpiration – [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The loss of water vapor through the stomata of leaves.[/SIZE]
from http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/gardennotes/141.html
 
[SIZE=12pt]The raw material for plant energy to grow etc. comes from the sugar energy created from photosynthesis. At night this is not being created, it is being used up. It is used up even as ammonium is being taken in. Of course, submerged aquatic plants don't really worry about water loss via transpiration.  [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Most processes are similar for terrestrial and aquatic plants. This is why a lot of things can be applied to both and why my comparisons are mostly valid if not completely so.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]your assumption that plants aren't using nutrients at night is simply incorrect, [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]That was not my assumption. I said they only made sugars via photosynthesis during the day and some was stored for use at night. I believe what I said was they did not take up ammonia and nitrite at night.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Actually, upon further research, it turns out I was incorrect. Researching the uptake of nutrients in the dark is like finding a needle in a haystack. However, what I did find indicated that ammonium uptake does not stop, although there is both evidence presented that the uptake rate is unchanged at night and other research showing that it slows at night. But ammonium is not the energy that drives the whole engine, it merely provides the fixed nitrogen that is required to create the proteins that the plant needs to make.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Depending on whose research you read, nitrate uptake does slow or stop at night. The reason for this is how the plants process nitrate into something they can use. They convert it first to nitrite and then to ammonium, the reverse of how the bacteria work. But this “reverse” process requires the input of energy from the plant. During night plants conserve energy so it lasts until morning. So they often do not allocate it, or at least limit it and do not process nitrate or greatly reduce the rate. Of course there are a few exceptions to all this, some plants only take up nitrate, so they must burn energy at night ti use it.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]At any rate here is some of what I did find and links to it:[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Kinetics of nitrate and ammonium uptake by the tropical freshwater macrophyte Pistia stratiotes L.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]The kinetics of nitrogen uptake were examined for a common freshwater macrophyte Pistia stratiotes. Nitrate-nitrogen and ammonium-nitrogen uptake were monitored in response to a wide range of substrate concentrations. Nitrate uptake rates were higher after 24 h of exposure to the nitrate source than immediately after exposure. The rate of uptake of nitrate-nitrogen was greater in the light than in the dark. Nitrate uptake followed a pattern which could be adequately described by the Michaelis—Menten expression. Ammonium-nitrogen uptake response to substrate concentration appeared to be linear. Rates of ammonium-nitrogen uptake were similar in the dark and in the light. For any given dissolved nitrogen concentration, the rate of ammonium-nitrogen uptake was greater than the rate of nitrate-nitrogen uptake.[/SIZE]
from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0044848681900399
 
[SIZE=12pt]The above also supports the leaf root issue. But it is not universal to all aquatic plants. Some are more adapted to using mostly ammonium, others prefer nitrate and some use both. These sort of specific differences are common when investigated one a species by species basis. However, the mechanisms for using these things are similar. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]I was able to find a great deal of research on bacteria and plants on land and how they tend to live in concert more than competing. However, the composition of the plant community as well as the AOB (and other microbes) are flexible. The most notable fact in terms of the AOB is the strains change based on the level of ammonia available. So the strains just shift towards those with the lowest affinity for ammonia the more plants there are. Those AOB are the ones that can survive at the lowest ammonia levels. But in an environment devoid of aquatic plants, the same thing holds true. [/SIZE]
 
Continued Below
 
[SIZE=12pt]Different AOB strains dominate depending on the ammonia levels. And this is all further compounded when one factors in the recently discovered of ammonia oxidizing archaea which tend to be found in the greatest numbers in soil and oceans (salt water). But they are also present in natural fw environs as well. These microbes are able to thrive on the lowest levels of ammonia. In such, they do better than and AOB, even the low ammonia loving ones. But as ammonia levels increase so do the bacteria but not the archaea. As ammonia levels rise the archaea may even decline. So at best the competition with both plants and bacteria present is as much between the strains of bacteria as between the plants and the bacteria.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]This is not so much a case of competition as it is the best adapted species for the conditions being the ones that dominate. Put plants into too much ammonium and they will suffer where the highest ammonia level nitrifying bacteria may handle it. We never see this in tanks as it would kill fish long before the plants. I did find a few papers on aquatic plants and bacteria but I had to use the terms hydrophytes or macrophytes instead of aquatic plants in the searches.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Betaproteobacterial ammonia oxidizers in root zones of aquatic macrophytes[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Abstract:[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Enhanced nitrification and coupled denitrification in macrophyte root zones may contribute to the depletion of nitrogen from the rhizosphere and are both critical processes for agriculture and rhizoremediation. We examined one factor likely to affect these processes: the ammonia oxidizing betaproteobacterial community composition, and whether or not it is influenced by plant species (Eleocharis acicularis, Eleocharis palustris, Typha angustifolia) or sediment characteristics. Genes coding for ammonia monooxygenase (amoA) and 16S rRNA of betaproteobacterial ammonia oxidizers were targeted. The betaproteobacterial ammonia oxidizing community in root surface biofilms was distinct from the surrounding rhizosphere sediment. In contrast, communities in rhizosphere and bulk sediment samples were very similar. Our results showed the occurrence of Nitrosomonas europaea-like bacteria nearly exclusively in the rhizoplane biofilms, while sequences affiliated with the Nitrosomonas oligotropha, Nitrosomonas communis and Nitrosospira-lineages were more frequently detected in the surrounding sediment. Our results further suggest that the presence of N. europaea on macrophyte roots depends on the sampling site rather than on the studied macrophyte species. We propose that the rhizoplane of aquatic macrophytes is a natural habitat for N. europaea. [/SIZE]
from http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/schweiz/fal/2010/00000177/00000004/art00001
 
[SIZE=12pt]Effect of Lake Trophic Status and Rooted Macrophytes on Community Composition and Abundance of Ammonia-Oxidizing Prokaryotes in Freshwater Sediments[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Communities of ammonia-oxidizing archaea (AOA) and bacteria (AOB) in freshwater sediments and those in association with the root system of the macrophyte species Littorella uniflora, Juncus bulbosus, and Myriophyllum alterniflorum were compared for seven oligotrophic to mesotrophic softwater lakes and acidic heathland pools.....[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Archaeal and bacterial ammonia monooxygenase alpha-subunit (amoA) gene diversity increased from oligotrophic to mesotrophic sites; the number of detected operational taxonomic units was positively correlated to ammonia availability and pH and negatively correlated to sediment C/N ratios. AOA communities could be grouped according to lake trophic status and pH; plant species-specific communities were not detected, and no grouping was apparent for AOB communities. Relative abundance, determined by quantitative PCR targeting amoA, was always low for AOB (<0.05% of all prokaryotes) and slightly higher for AOA in unvegetated sediment and AOA in association with M. alterniflorum (0.01 to 2%), while AOA accounted for up to 5% in the rhizospheres of L. uniflora and J. bulbosus. These results indicate that (i) AOA are at least as numerous as AOB in freshwater sediments [/SIZE]
from http://aem.asm.org/content/75/10/3127.full
 
[SIZE=12pt]And here are a couple regarding land plants that seem to be similar. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Linking plant identity and interspecific competition to soil nitrogen cycling through ammonia oxidizer communities [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Both plants and microbes influence soil nutrient cycling. However, the links between plants, microbes and nutrient cycling are poorly understood. In this study, we investigated how plant identity and interspecific competition influence soil nitrogen cycling and attempted to link plant identity and interspecific competition to community structures of bacterial and archaeal ammonia oxidizers........ [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]........nitrogen addition favored part of a Nitrosospira cluster 3b sequence type and suppressed part of a cluster Nitrosospira 3a sequence type of bacterial ammonia oxidizers, while it had no influence on the archaeal ammonia oxidizer community structure. Although multivariate analysis showed that the function and community structure of bacterial ammonia oxidizers were significantly correlated, plant species and interspecific competition did not significantly change the community structure of bacterial and archaeal ammonia oxidizers. These results indicate that plant species and interspecific competition regulate soil nitrogen cycling via a mechanism of other than alteration in the community structure of ammonia oxidizers as investigated by DNA based methods. [/SIZE]
from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038071710003421
 
[SIZE=12pt]Do climate warming and plant species richness affect potential nitrification, basal respiration and ammonia-oxidizing bacteria in experimental grasslands? [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Abstract[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) are key organisms in the N cycle, as they control the first, rate-limiting step of the nitrification process. The question whether current environmental disturbances, such as climate warming and plant diversity losses, select for a particular community structure of AOB and/or influence their activity remains open. The purpose of this research was to study the impact of a 3 °C warming and of plant species richness (S) on microbial activity and diversity in synthesized grasslands, with emphasis on the nitrification process and on the diversity (community structure and richness) of ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB)……..[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Warming did not affect AOB diversity and increased potential nitrification at S = 3 only. Under warmed conditions, higher plant species richness resulted in increased potential nitrification rates. AOB richness increased with plant species richness…….No clear relationship emerged between AOB richness and potential nitrification whatever plant species richness and temperature treatment. Our findings show a link between aboveground and belowground diversity, namely plant species richness, AOB richness and community structure. [/SIZE]
from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038071710002531
 
[SIZE=12pt]What all of this is telling me is that plants and bacteria are not really competing as much as they seem often  to work in concert. While one can argue that the presence of plants may alter the strains/types of ammonia oxidizing organisms involved,  plants do not eliminate or greatly reduce the size of healthy colonies of nitrifying bacteria (or archaea), they merely create conditions where different strains of nitrifiers dominate. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]I would make one last point in this respect. While it is a simple matter for you to say there are no bacteria doing nitrification in high tech planted tanks or for me to say there are. Neither of us has the training or laboratory and equipment it would require to prove our points of view. As a result, we must both rely on the work of the scientists who do have them. The research clearly shows that bacterial colonies of all types related to the nitrogen cycle are present on the plants (especially the roots) we put into tanks. If you want to state this is not the case, then please cite the research that would support this view.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Let me offer the following quote from the work of Dr. Chris Cow (chemistry Ph.D.) whose article on fishless cycling is largely responsible for the rise of this practice in the hobby:[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Sources of Bacteria[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]While it is probable that the bacteria required for the conversion of ammonia and nitrite to nitrate exist at very low levels in most uncycled tanks, it greatly accelerates the process to inoculate the tank with a large dose of healthy bacteria to get things started. Good sources of beneficial bacteria are ranked from best to least: [/SIZE]
  1. [SIZE=12pt]Filter material (floss, sponge, biowheel, etc.) from an established, disease-free tank. [/SIZE]
  2. [SIZE=12pt]Live plants[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (preferably potted, leave the rockwool on until cycling is finished). Crypts or amazon swords are good choices, and not too demanding. [/SIZE]
  3. [SIZE=12pt]Gravel from an established, disease-free tank. (Many lfs [local fish stores] will give this away if asked nicely.) [/SIZE]
  4. [SIZE=12pt]Other ornaments (driftwood, rocks, etc.) from an established tank. [/SIZE]
  5. [SIZE=12pt]Squeezings from a filter sponge (any lfs should be willing to do this...) [/SIZE]
from http://malawicichlids.com/mw01017.htm
 
[SIZE=12pt]Let me make one final observation. We know in water above about a pH of 6.0 that some portion of the ammonia, small as it may be, is in the form of NH3, the food of bacteria and not of plants. Even if the plants are taking in the ammonium portion,  there is still enough NH3 “hanging” around in the water that ammonia oxidizers are going to be able to “grab” some of it. And then there is the whole issue of pruning a tank. This effectively is the removal of plant biomass. This process means that there is a smaller volume/mass/weight of plant need for nitrogen. Suddenly, there very well can be more ammonia being created at this point than the plants may need. Something must be there removing  any excess ammonia when this happens? If not what would happen to the fish?[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]And relative to all this, I would  also ask you the following. There are two similar tanks except one is full of healthy live plants and the other only the healthy live nitrifying bacteria. Both tanks are healthy and thriving. They can both support similar fish load. Now seal off both tanks. Nothing goes in, nothing comes out. You can keep the plants in any level of light you want to specify. Which will all die off first, the plants or the ammonia oxidizing bacteria? [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=9pt]TwoTankAmin, on 18 Dec 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Three I could not care less if you take me seriously or not. Your opinion of me has no effect on the science here. but you have gotten me upset enough to make the effort to get the onformation here.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]That's OK, but you should care what others reading your posts think if you want your advice to be taken seriously.   I don't actually intend to "upset" you, merely to provoke you into acknowledging the various flaws in your argument, to actually try and methodically refute anything I am saying rather than state irrelevant facts, as we are in the scientific section now, and your argument is very weak.  Just one example, you seem to refuse to accept the scientific definition of "competition".[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]The rest of that post is just random background information on bacteria and Archaea. Nothing you say in that post adds any new relevant points to your argument whatsoever, or even attempts to counter mine. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Also its laced with borderline attacks like "but while you are waiting go do some more reading" and "clearly your understanding of the nitrifying bacteria is a bit deficient". This is not how you debate 
rolleyes.gif
[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]There is no light around the roots of aquatic plants that root in nature or substrate either. Land plants have fungi that aquatic plants don’t. And just like some aquatic plants do not root in any form of soil or substrate (notably floaters), so do some terrestrial plants (think orchids).  Both types also grow in oxygen rich and oxygen poor environments in terms of soil/substrate. I found much research on this but here is one good example:[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Doesn't matter, we are discussing the plant leaves taking nutrients from aquarium water, all of what you say here is just more irrelevant information.[/SIZE]
 
 
[SIZE=12pt]What you will also find is in oxygen poor substrates, aquatic plants move O to the roots. In fact, some of this O is actually released from the roots to oxygenate the substrate which supplies O to the nitrifying bacteria. Looks a lot less like competition and a bit more like “cooperation”. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Yes, that would be called "symbiosis" as I have explained already above. Obviously bacteria living on the plants roots and receiving O from the plants in return for nutrients would be considered to be in a "symbiotic relationship" as opposed to a "competitive relationship". The majority of the rest of the bacteria, however, and the only ones relevant to our discussion, are the ones living in the filter and surfaces exposed to the water column.  So there is no point to what you have just said there.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]It is not correct to claim aquatic plants get all they need from leaf feeding either.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Another statement I am seriously surprised to hear from you. Please, provide a quote and link to a any study that states this. Plants ability to uptake all nutrients through he leaves is integral to the EI method. Its very, very well proven by now. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]The rest of the post is more irrelevant information up until:[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]That was not my assumption.  I believe what I said was they did not take up ammonia and nitrite at night.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Well, ammonia and nitrite are nutrients, so  "[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]your assumption that plants aren't using nutrients at night is simply incorrect" is accurate. However, thank you for once acknowledging you were incorrect.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Depending on whose research you read, nitrate uptake does slow or stop at night.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Only ammonia/ammonium uptake is relevant to the discussion. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]The above also supports the leaf root issue. But it is not universal to all aquatic plants[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Indeed, why post any of that?[/SIZE]
 
 [SIZE=12pt]I was able to find a great deal of research on bacteria and plants on land and how they tend to live in concert more than competing. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]No, "symbiosis", but once again irrelevant anyway.[/SIZE]
 
 So at best the competition with both plants and bacteria present is as much between the strains of bacteria as between the plants and the bacteria.
Yes, of course the bacteria are in competition with the other bacteria in the biofilm too, that's obvious and not relevant.
 
[SIZE=12pt]This is not so much a case of competition as it is the best adapted species for the conditions being the ones that dominate. [/SIZE]
No. Its competition.
 
[SIZE=12pt]"What all of this is telling me is that plants and bacteria are not really competing as much as they seem often  to work in concert." [/SIZE]
 
How? How does any of that remotely imply what you are saying at all? Please stop posting irrelevant studies.  If you need to see the definition of "competition" again, please re-read this post.
 
"While it is a simple matter for you to say there are no bacteria doing nitrification in high tech planted tanks or for me to say there are. "
 
How many times do I have to re-state that I am not saying this. Stop accusing me of making an argument I'm not. I have stated multiple times that all I am saying is that plants and bacteria compete for ammonia in the aquarium, and that this fact can effect a fishless cycle, to varying degrees depending on the set-up.
 
"Something must be there removing  any excess ammonia when this happens? If not what would happen to the fish?"
 
In such a scenario, in a mature tank, if there was suddenly not enough plant mass to cover all the ammonia, of course the bacteria would start to reproduce faster to due to the ammonia. I have never once implied anything different would happen. Irrelevant anyway.
 
"Which will all die off first, the plants or the ammonia oxidizing bacteria?"
 
Depends on too many factors for me to bother listing, and is once again, unrelated to our discussion.
 
Three-fingers, thanks for the detailed reply to my questions!
 
This discussion has been very interesting but I fear it has derailed somewhat from the original purpose. The question was whether it is better to fishless cycle with ammonia before adding plants or whether to add plants first.  If I may summarize my interpretation of the salient points so far in an attempt to draw a conclusion:
  • Ammonia encourages algae which is detrimental to plants, therefore it is a bad idea to add ammonia while there are plants in the tank.  Fishless cycling with ammonia is best done in the dark to minimise algae growth.
  • Adding ammonia to a planted tank can damage or kill certain species of plants.  From personal experience, I think I finally understand why my beautiful healthy crop of monosolenium tenerum mysteriously wiped out shortly after completing a fishless cycle.  In retrospect it's now clear to me that I killed the plant with ammonia and I now believe I should have cycled this tank before adding plants.
  • Performing a fishless cycle with plants present may be faster, as the plants help to absorb the ammonia, but may result in problems later due to insufficient bacteria population if plant uptake of ammonia decreases for any number of reasons.
  • Plants and nitrifying bacteria both compete for the same preferred food source (ammonia/um) although they can co-exist in an established ecosystem but only where there are sufficient resources to support both populations.  Under such conditions the plants will uptake resources faster and the bacteria will be forced to reduce their population in balance with the remaining resources.
  • The ideal end goal is to produce an environment that is safe for fish, regardless of how long the cycle takes.  Thus we are not concerned if a population of nitrifying bacteria is built up and then subsequently diminished due to the addition of plants.  This is an acceptable loss to maximise the chances of a healthy environment for fish and plants from the start.
My conclusion based on the arguments presented thus far is that Three-fingers is right and it is inadvisable to add ammonia to a planted tank.  TwoTankAmin, do you still disagree with this conclusion and can you give any more reasons why the benefits of cycling with plants together with ammonia outweigh the listed disadvantages?
 
 
The rest of my post relates only to silent cycling.
 
three-fingers said:
 
What it does not mean is that the cycle is being handled exclusively by plants and there are no nitrifying autotrophs at work.
Well yeah, nobody has ever even implied that in this thread
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If you both agree that we cannot guarantee that plants will be able to fully process all the ammonia produced by livestock, isn't that the equivalent of saying that a silent cycle will not fully cycle the tank?  If bacteria are needed in addition to plants to uptake the excess ammonia, which both of you seem to be implying, then a newly established planted tank will not have those bacteria and therefore not be cycled under the silent method.  Thus a silent cycle is merely an improved but imperfect version of a fish-in cycle.
 
three-fingers said:
Now, when it comes to non-established planted tanks (the only setting I would consider these tiny daily fluctuations important), unfortunately there are threads upon threads of examples on planted forums of tanks that have on-going problems due to ammonia fluctuations. Ammonia is the #1 suspect when someone has trouble with melting plants and algae, its often seen when scapers set up a new tank with not enough plant mass, or poorly chosen species that don't adapt fast enough to the new set up.
Perhaps I have misunderstood, but isn't this a good example of why a silent cycle is too difficult for a beginner to the planted world? If it takes experience to correctly judge the plant mass and balance of light/CO2 and providing enough ferts then I would recommend that a beginner should gain experience in all of these areas before attempting a silent cycle. It still seems to me that judging all of these factors well enough to be confident of causing no harm to fish is a feat of skill that rests in the province of the expert.

I'm all for beginners learning how to keep their plants healthy but that doesn't need to include subjecting live animals to potential mistakes in their learning process.
 
Thanks very much for the reply daizeUK!  I'm so glad you have managed to extract and neatly summarise all the relevant facts from the huge wall of text that is this thread! I was worried that the discussion had deviated from the original topic to the extent that people would get bored reading, or forget the only points I'm trying to make! So thanks for going through the effort, I hope you find the information useful
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isn't that the equivalent of saying that a silent cycle will not fully cycle the tank? 
Well not exactly, as the tank would still "cycle" (if we are taking this to mean growing an average count of established bacteria on the filter), but in some cases the bacteria will never be consuming a significant amount of ammonia compared to the plants. In such cases the bacteria will still establish themselves at an average count, it will just be a very small count!
 
The aim of setting up a tank for a silent cycle is to try and ensure that you have enough plants that they can cover the full amount of ammonia from fish, there is always going to be an insignificant proportion that will make it to the filter bacteria, this would always be the case unless all of the tanks hard surfaces in contact with the water were made of living plant leaves. 
 
Thus a silent cycle is merely an improved but imperfect version of a fish-in cycle.
Essentially, yes! The tank is still cycling with the fish in the tank, but it doesn't matter because the concentration NH3 is so small (if you set-up correctly) that it doesn't effect the livestock at all. Its just enough to establish a relatively tiny average count of bacteria on the filter media - relatively tiny compared what you would achieve with a fishless cycle.
 
Perhaps I have misunderstood, but isn't this a good example of why a silent cycle is too difficult for a beginner to the planted world? If it takes experience to correctly judge the plant mass and balance of light/CO2 and providing enough ferts then I would recommend that a beginner should gain experience in all of these areas before attempting a silent cycle. It still seems to me that judging all of these factors well enough to be confident of causing no harm to fish is a feat of skill that rests in the province of the expert.
Luckily for us, recently developed modern methods make it very easy to "balance" plant mass, light, ferts and CO2.  Well, easy if you read up on the topic before you set up the tank with plants anyway lol!
 
For a beginner to the planted world, achieving recommended plant mass just involves planting ~75% substrate area (to be on the safe side) and including some fast-growers.
 
Its very hard to have too little light with modern aquatic lighting, and most newbies start with far too much light, so the recommendation is generally to start with the lowest power light available to you, and upgrade at a later date if you want faster plant growth. This way the plants will be limited by light and not CO2 or nutrients (which are provided in great excess just to be sure).
 
CO2 is very easy to maintain at ~30ppm as well with modern drop-checkers and pressurised kits, though relatively expensive.
 
Finally, correct EI dosing (using a DIY mix, or off-the-shelf brand) will ensure that the plants always have excess nutrients,.
 
So it's not so much creating a balance of light/CO2/ferts so much as choosing your preferred lighting level and then always overdosing everything else. If you follow the instructions,
 
Low-tech planted tanks are simpler, always using minimum lighting and no CO2, along with unlimited nutrients (unless your going for a specific Walstad-method tank or similar). 
 
 I'm all for beginners learning how to keep their plants healthy but that doesn't need to include subjecting live animals to potential mistakes in their learning process.
Absolutely agree with you here, I would recommend that if someone isn't as interested in having a fully planted tank as they are with the prospect of keeping fish, that they do a fishless cycle for the sake of the fish first, and then gradually plants after the cycle is complete - rather than try a silent cycle 
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three- this is the scientific section of the forum. Its purpose is to bring the science side of things into the discussion. Unless you are a scientist yourself, your words, in the absense of any science to back them up, are simply your words. Now if you have the credentials that is a different story. Do you have a Ph.D. or do you have a Masters in plant biology or a related field? Since I do not, I rely on the work of those who do. I have not done the science myself, have you?
 
So I have made my points and provided the research that tends to support supports my points. You have provided none of this. To that extent this is a uneven playing field. I back what I say with actual science done by people with the training and experience. You offer your opinions and back them with phrase like, "on lots of plant forums".
 
You want to claim that plants basically compete bacteria out of the picture yet you do not provide any science to back this up. Your points you have to eliminated the majority of planted tanks from your assertions since they simply are not applicable. To the contention ctah cycling a planted tank using some ammonia makes ammonia, I say setting up a high tech planted tank for the first time, not adding any ammonia, doing 0 to cycle it will still result in 9/10 first timers doing this to have nasty algae problems. I will say you really have no idea how to pull off a planted tank cycle adding ammonia as most newbies won't either.
 
But you are going to get lucky in this respect. I am slowly doing so, but i am rewriting a number of the articles relating to cycling tanks. The inicitial one is not the sites beginner fishless cycling article. The current article which is nearly done deals with rescuing a fish in cycle gone bad. But the one after that is and advanced cycling article which deals with the more sophisticated and complex situations of which setting up various types of planted tanks and rounding them out with whatever level of bacteria should also be involved is a big part of that. So I will make one more comment on this issue.
 
Before fishless cycling became popular, everybody cycled with fish an tanks were stocked gradually. Fishless cycling offers a few benefits. One of these is it allows one to stock a tank fully when it is completed. A "silent cycle" (a term I dislike and rarely use) in a heavily planted planted tank (with or without pressurized gas and high light levels) does not do this. If I am wrong please show me a respectable planted tank site which tells one to plant a tank up heavily and then fully stock the tank in one go.
 
As of this point I consider this thread to have science on my side and no science on yours. So for me to continue the discussion with you further I will wait for you to provide the same level of science and the the same sort of references as I have. You saying they are not relevant etc, is basically the what people who have nothing to offer in terms of the science say to make their anecdotal evidence and often urban tank myths to support their ideas.
 
Show us that aquatic plants and land plants are so completely different in their biology and processes that they are barely comparable. Show us the science that finds no strains of bacteria and archaea working in concert with plants in almost any ecosystem, even one as imperfect as an aquarium. I have had this same argument with a few folks on fish sites. Your posts so far belong anywhere on this site but in the scientific section.
 
When I see folks state "Ammonia + light = algae" I smile. What it should say is failing to manage these things properly will result in algae or even worse. But here is my little piece of anecdotal evidence to go with your's. I have a bio-farm tank. It has 5 filters on it and has had 5-7 in it for the past 8 or so months. I dose larger amounts of ammonium chloride into this tank every other day. I use Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride. I don't even count the drops I just squeeze the bottle to shoot in a large amount. I used to count drops for dosing a tank to at least 8 ppm, but it was so many drops I became more haphazard once I had a good idea of what was going on. The point is to keep filters cycled. The tank is bare, it holds a bag of crushed coral to keep adequate carbonates in the tank and the pH over 7.0. the tank sits under a window and next to a couple of other tanks with live plants and lighting. So the bio-farm gets lots of ambient light. There is not now and there has never been a speck of algae in this tank since day one, not even diatoms.
 
I also believe that your experience in this respect vs mine are totally different. over the last 13 or so years I have set up and fully stocked combination tanks (containing both plants and added bacteria which were then dosed with some level of ammonia to make them capable of adding a full fish load immediately. When done (that is anywhere from 24 hours to a week or two) received a full fish load and even overstocking a few times. All of the fish did fine, there were no ammonia issues. How many of these type tanks have you done?
 
And for the contention that a first time fish keeper or even one with a few months of planted tank experience can simply jump into the high tech tank world of pressurized co2, high intensity lighting and regular fertilizing routines and have a real degree of control and success is simply naive. There is to much to master to get to this level without adequate experience. As for your idea that in any planted tank that is less than high tech one cycle first and plant. I see no reason for going this route. It will actually take longer, be more complicated and result in time and effort wasted for no good reason.
 
And to make my point- how long do you believe bacteria will thrive, i.e not go into a dormant state in the absence of ammonia? A day, a few days, a week? a month? Untill you know the answer to that, how can you suggest doing a fishless cycle, then stop adding ammonia and plant the tank. How long are you going to allow plants to establish before adding fish which often will uproot recently added plants. And then why don't you answer this.
 
In any new tank with live plants- that is from a few low light plants all the way through heavily planted with all the bells and whistles, how do you know if it is capable of handling a full fish load? At what point can you be certain without any form of testing that the tank can process 100% (or close to it) of all the ammonia the fish to added will create? I have the answer and it is very simple. You dose an appropriate amount of ammonia into the tank and you test in 12 hours and if its not all gone, you test in 12 more. This will tell you instantly where the tank stands in terms of being cycled. And by cycled I include plants taking up ammonia to be a pert of cycling because it reduces the amount of bacteria needed to get to 100% ammonia handling.
 
If the plants and the bacteria already present in a tank are not able to process 3 ppm of ammonia in 24 hours it means the combination of plants and bateria are not adequate for full stocking. And the way to proceed from there is, based on how much ammonia is left after a day, to be adding sufficient ammonia to exceed what the plants can take up so there is some for bacterial reproduction. Nor does this mean to inundate a tank with ammonia, it means to be sure is the some small amount over what the tank processes in 24 hours to encourage the bacteria. One does not complete a fishless cycle in a partially planted tank the same way as they do so in an unplanted tank.
 
There is a further reason I suggest one plant first and then wait a 10-14 days for the plants to settle in. This is the advice so often given to planted tank folks with algae issues to try a blackout. The reason is simple, plants can survive a blackout way better than algae. So if you are completing the cycle in a tank that has been planted first, how much light does one have to provide to allow the plants to do OK short term but to prevent algae from doing so? It is minimal. Plants can do fine with way less or no light for the short term than algae can. Or do you disagree on this point as well? If so, cite the science that says healthy algae out lives healthy plants when the light is gone for a while. But there is a second reason for dimming the lights, the nitrifying bacteria are photosensitive. That is why they colonize best where there is little light. This is a factor missed by most folks who say bacteria like filters as a place to live due just to flow etc. Consider all the filters you can think of today from the interior of old fashioned sponges to the inside of canister and hang ons. And then tell me how many of these are not designed with tinted material or solid colored so that little light penetrates. Turning down the lights for the bacterial portion of "dual" cycles will help to speed up the bacterial colonization part as well as mostly or completely eliminating any algae issues.
 
So I have made my points and provided the research that tends to support supports my points. You have provided none of this.
No you haven't
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. Every point you have tried to make, I have quoted and refuted.  Every single last piece of research you have linked to is irrelevant to our discussion, and I have explained why on a case-by-case basis. Anyone reading can clearly see this.
 
You want to claim that plants basically compete bacteria out of the picture yet you do not provide any science to back this up.
How about all of the links to the definition of "competition"?  Why do you continue to ignore them?
 
As of this point I consider this thread to have science on my side and no science on yours. So for me to continue the discussion with you further I will wait for you to provide the same level of science and the the same sort of references as I have. You saying they are not relevant etc, is basically the what people who have nothing to offer in terms of the science say to make their anecdotal evidence and often urban tank myths to support their ideas.
 
Really, this is laughable. I'm convinced anyone reading this thread will not only accept the scientific definition of "competition" that I have provided multiple references for, but also easily understand my explanations of why the studies you link to aren't relevant to our discussion.  Leaving your whole argument as baseless in fact.
 
I would urge anyone reading any of TwoTankAmins posts here to read the whole thread before making up their mind on the subject, if you do so you will see the multiple logical fallacies in his argument along with lots of totally unrelated "filler" information.
 
I'm not ready to repeat myself to you again tonight, especially when anyone can scroll up and read my points to see how flawed your argument is.
 
As before, if anyone else has any questions, I will happily answer
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You have made no comments in the above post since it still lacks any scientific evidence or studies at all. You have refuted nothing. You have said almost nothing on the subject from the start in terms of science. It is a case of the kings new clothes.
 
 
Short-term competition between crop plants and soil microbes for inorganic N fertilizer
 
Abstract
Agricultural systems that receive high amounts of inorganic nitrogen (N) fertilizer in the form of either ammonium (NH4+), nitrate (NO3-) or a combination thereof are expected to differ in soil N transformation
rates and fates of NH4+ and NO3-. Using 15N tracer techniques this study examines how crop plants and soil microbes vary in their ability to take up and compete for fertilizer N on a short time scale (hours to days). Single plants of barley (Hordeum vulgare L. cv. Morex) were grown on two agricultural soils in microcosms which received either NH4+, NO3- or NH4NO3. Within each fertilizer treatment traces of 15NH4+ and 15NO3 were added separately. During 8 days of fertilization the fate of fertilizer 15N into plants, microbial biomass and inorganic soil N pools as well as changes in gross N transformation rates were investigated. One week after fertilization 45-80% of initially applied 15N was recovered in crop plants compared to only 1-10% in soil microbes, proving that plants were the strongest competitors for fertilizer N. In terms of N uptake soil microbes out-competed plants only during the first 4 h of N application independent of soil and fertilizer N form. Within one day microbial N uptake declined substantially, probably due to carbon limitation. In both soils, plants and soil microbes took up more NO3- than NH4+ independent of initially applied N form. Surprisingly, no inhibitory effect of NH4+ on the uptake and assimilation of nitrate in both, plants and microbes, was observed, probably because fast nitrification rates led to a swift depletion of the ammonium pool. Compared to plant and microbial NH4+ uptake rates, gross nitrification rates were 3-75-fold higher, indicating that nitrifiers were the strongest competitors for NH4+ in both soils. The rapid conversion of NH4+ to NO3- and preferential use of NO3- by soil microbes suggest that in agricultural systems with high inorganic N fertilizer inputs the soil microbial community could adapt to high concentrations of NO3- and shift towards enhanced reliance on NO3 for their N supply.
from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038071709004349
 
Aerobic nitrifying bacteria take in ammonia and nitrite, nitrate removal is handled by anaerobic bacteria. So the parts above relative to the other soil microbes is not hugely relevant here in regards to the consumption of ammoina. Morevover, since the work looked at dumping a big dose of fertilizer into the mix it differes from what happens in tanks where the ammonium levels are lower and tend to be used up in short order. Ammonium is created continuously and at lower levels, So what might one take away from the above?
 
"One week after fertilization 45-80% of initially applied 15N was recovered in crop plants compared to only 1-10% in soil microbes, proving that plants were the strongest competitors for fertilizer N. In terms of N uptake soil microbes out-competed plants only during the first 4 h of N application independent of soil and fertilizer N form."
 
In a lower level of ammonium creation the nitrifying bacteria should behave more like the 4 hour period than the 8 day period. The research looked at adding big doses of N fertilizers into the mix, so it differs from what happens in tanks where the ammonium levels are lower and tend to be used up in short order. Ammonium is created continuously and at lower levels in tanks. Morerover, fertilizing aquarium plants in tanks with fish is not accomplished via adding ammonium. But if the bacteria take up more of the N in the first 4 hours than the plants, how do you argue plants out compete the bacteria? They may do so in terms of the plant demands being much higher than the bacteria demands, but thay may not do so in how fast either takes to supply those demands.
 
"Compared to plant and microbial NH4+ uptake rates, gross nitrification rates were 3-75-fold higher, indicating that nitrifiers were the strongest competitors for NH4+ in both soils."
This speaks for itself.
 
"Within one day microbial N uptake declined substantially, probably due to carbon limitation."
 
And this indicates it is likely co2 competition which limits the bacteria not the ammonium/ammonia. But in those tanks with heavy planting and co2 being added and with the KH (carbonates) being kept up, there should ne no co2 (or carbon limitation.
 
Come on three, I know you are intelligent enough to find some form of independent science to support what you say. Don't merely toss off the science I present, refute it with science of your own as the Scientific Forum rules suggest.
 
1. Scientific Etiquette and Presentation of Arguments. Claims/ideas/theories must be backed up by some semblance of evidence, that includes topics that may be controversial. Evidence has to be cited and direct questions need to be answered in a timely manner or the claims dropped. 'I don't know' is an acceptable answer, or if you need more time to research your idea, please post how long you will need. The forum will give you the time if you ask for it but will not tolerate ignoring direct questions. If a member presents a post that can be 'debunked' based on scientific data or evidence, a spirited 'debunking' is fair. Understand that there are gradations of evidence: evidence cited from a peer-reviewed published study is considered significantly stronger than anecdotal evidence. Using a logical fallacy is not evidence, and only makes your argument look weaker; avoid using logical fallacies altogether. In particular, ad hominem attacks (attacking the person, not the argument) is strictly forbidden and will not be tolerated.
 
 
You have made no comments in the above post since it still lacks any scientific evidence or studies at all. You have refuted nothing. You have said almost nothing on the subject from the start in terms of science. It is a case of the kings new clothes.
Just posting to indicate that I have read your above post, and still find nothing relevant, just a provocatory tone and more irrelevant info as "padding" to your argument.
 
Any critical thinker should be able to follow my argument so I'm not concerned with the above post :).
 
As I have pointed out before, your whole argument is based on a logical fallacy as you still refuse to accept the scientific definition of "competition".
 
Please keep posting, you are only weakening your position in the discussion.
 
So you think there is competition in an aquarium? OK lets take a look at competition. I am going to quote others for this and to keep the space of this post lower I am not going to include the diagrams and photos. Those who wish to see them can follow the reference link.
 
Species Interactions and Competition

By: Jennifer M. Lang (University of Dayton) & M. Eric Benbow (University of Dayton) © 2013 Nature Education 
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Citation: Lang, J. M. & Benbow, M. E. (2013) Species Interactions and Competition. Nature Education Knowledge 4(4):8
 
Introduction Organisms live within an ecological community, which is defined as an assemblage of populations of at least two different species that interact directly and indirectly within a defined geographic area (Agrawal et al. 2007; Ricklefs 2008; Brooker et al. 2009). Species interactions form the basis for many ecosystem properties and processes such as nutrient cycling and food webs. The nature of these interactions can vary depending on the evolutionary context and environmental conditions in which they occur. As a result, ecological interactions between individual organisms and entire species are often difficult to define and measure and are frequently dependent on the scale and context of the interactions (Harrison & Cornell 2008; Ricklefs 2008; Brooker et al. 2009). Nonetheless, there are several classes of interactions among organisms that are found throughout many habitats and ecosystems. Using these classes of interactions as a framework when studying an ecological community allows scientists to describe naturally occurring processes and aids in predicting how human alterations to the natural world may affect ecosystem properties and processes.

At the coarsest level, ecological interactions can be defined as either intra-specific or inter-specific. Intra-specific interactions are those that occur between individuals of the same species, while interactions that occur between two or more species are called inter-specific interactions. However, since most species occur within ecological communities, these interactions can be affected by, and indirectly influence, other species and their interactions. The ones that will be discussed in this article are competition, predation, herbivory and symbiosis. These are not the only types of species interactions, just the most studied — and they are all parts of a larger network of interactions that make up the complex relationships occurring in nature.
Competition Competition is most typically considered the interaction of individuals that vie for a common resource that is in limited supply, but more generally can be defined as the direct or indirect interaction of organisms that leads to a change in fitness when the organisms share the same resource. The outcome usually has negative effects on the weaker competitors. There are three major forms of competition. Two of them, interference competition and exploitation competition, are categorized as real competition. A third form, apparent competition, is not. Interference competition occurs  (Holomuzki et. al 2010) Figure 1.occurring in nature.
 
When an individual directly alters the resource-attaining behavior of other individuals, the interaction is considered interference competition. For example, when a male gorilla prohibits other males from accessing a mate by using physical aggression or displays of aggression, the dominant male is directly altering the mating behavior of other males. This is also an example of an intra-specific interaction. Exploitation competition occurs when individuals interact indirectly as they compete for common resources, like territory, prey or food. Simply put, the use of the resource by one individual will decrease the amount available for other individuals. Whether by interference or exploitation, over time a superior competitor can eliminate an inferior one from the area, resulting in competitive exclusion (Hardin 1960). The outcomes of competition between two species can be predicted using equations, and one of the most well known is the Lotka-Volterra model (Volterra 1926, Lotka 1932). This model relates the population density and carrying capacity of two species to each other and includes their overall effect on each other. The four outcomes of this model are: 1) species A competitively excludes species B; 2) species B competitively excludes species A; 3) either species wins based on population densities; or 4) coexistence occurs. Species can survive together if intra-specific is stronger than inter-specific competition. This means that each species will inhibit their own population growth before they inhibit that of the competitor, leading to coexistence.
 
Another mechanism for avoiding competitive exclusion is to adopt alternative life history and dispersal strategies, which are usually reinforced through natural selection. This mechanism reduces competitive interactions and increases opportunities for new colonization and nutrient acquisition. The success of this is often dependent upon events (such as tide, flood, or fire disturbances) that create opportunities for dispersal and nutrient acquisition. Consider that Plant Species A is more efficient than Plant Species B at nutrient uptake, but Plant B is a better disperser. In this example, the resource under competition is nutrients, but nutrient acquisition is related to availability. If a disturbance opens up new space for colonization, Plant B is expected to arrive first and maintain its presence in the community until Plant A arrives and begins competing with Plant B. Eventually Plant A will outcompete Plant B, perhaps by growing faster because Plant A is more efficient at nutrient acquisition. With an increasing Plant A population, the Plant B population will decline, and given enough time, can be excluded from that area. The exclusion of Plant B can be avoided if a local disturbance (for example, prairie fires) consistently opens new opportunities (space) for colonization. This often happens in nature, and thus disturbance can balance competitive interactions and prevent competitive exclusion by creating patches that will be readily colonized by species with better dispersal strategies (Roxburgh et al. 2004) (Figure 2). The success of the dispersal versus nutrient acquisition trade-off depends, however, on the frequency and spatial proximity (or how close they are) of disturbance events relative to the dispersal rates of individuals of the competing species. Coexistence can be achieved when disturbances occur at a frequency or distance that allows the weaker, but often better dispersing, competitor to be maintained in a habitat. If the disturbance is too frequent the inferior competitor (better disperser) wins, but if the disturbance is rare then the superior competitor slowly outcompetes the inferior competitor, resulting in competitive exclusion. This is known as the intermediate disturbance hypothesis (Horn 1975, Connell 1978).

Apparent competition occurs when two individuals that do not directly compete for resources affect each other indirectly by being prey for the same predator (Hatcher et al. 2006). Consider a hawk (predator, see below) that preys both on squirrels and mice. In this relationship, if the squirrel population increases, then the mouse population may be positively affected since more squirrels will be available as prey for the hawks. However, an increased squirrel population may eventually lead to a higher population of hawks requiring more prey, thus, negatively affecting the mice through increased predation pressure as the squirrel population declines. The opposite effect could also occur through a decrease in food resources for the predator. If the squirrel population decreases, it can indirectly lead to a reduction in the mouse population since they will be the more abundant food source for the hawks. Apparent competition can be difficult to identify in nature, often because of the complexity of indirect interactions that involve multiple species and changing environmental conditions.
Predation and Herbivory
Predation requires one individual, the predator, to kill and eat another individual, the prey (Figure 3). In most examples of this relationship, the predator and prey are both animals; however, protozoans are known to prey on bacteria and other protozoans and some plants are known to trap and digest insects (for example, pitcher plant) (Figure 4). Typically, this interaction occurs between species (inter-specific); but when it occurs within a species (intra-specific) it is cannibalism. Cannibalism is actually quite common in both aquatic and terrestrial food webs (Huss et al. 2010; Greenwood et al. 2010). It often occurs when food resources are scarce, forcing organisms of the same species to feed on each other. Surprisingly, this can actually benefit the species (though not the prey) as a whole by sustaining the population through times of limited resources while simultaneously allowing the scarce resources to rebound through reduced feeding pressure (Huss et al. 2010). The predator-prey relationship can be complex through sophisticated adaptations by both predators and prey, in what has been called an "evolutionary arms race." Typical predatory adaptations are sharp teeth and claws, stingers or poison, quick and agile bodies, camouflage coloration and excellent olfactory, visual or aural acuity. Prey species have evolved a variety of defenses including behavioral, morphological, physiological, mechanical, life-history synchrony and chemical defenses to avoid being preyed upon (Aaron, Farnsworth et al. 1996, 2008)
 
Another interaction that is much like predation is herbivory, which is when an individual feeds on all or part of a photosynthetic organism (plant or algae), possibly killing it (Gurevitch et al. 2006). An important difference between herbivory and predation is that herbivory does not always lead to the death of the individual. Herbivory is often the foundation of food webs since it involves the consumption of primary producers (organisms that convert light energy to chemical energy through photosynthesis). Herbivores are classified based on the part of the plant consumed. Granivores eat seeds; grazers eat grasses and low shrubs; browsers eat leaves from trees or shrubs; and frugivores eat fruits. Plants, like prey, also have evolved adaptations to herbivory. Tolerance is the ability to minimize negative effects resulting from herbivory, while resistance means that plants use defenses to avoid being consumed. Physical (for example, thorns, tough material, sticky substances) and chemical adaptations (for example, irritating toxins on piercing structures, and bad-tasting chemicals in leaves) are two common types of plant defenses (Gurevitch et al. 2006) (Figure 5).
Symbiosis: Mutualism, Commensalism and Parasitism
Symbiosis is an interaction characterized by two or more species living purposefully in direct contact with each other. The term "symbiosis" includes a broad range of species interactions but typically refers to three major types: mutualism, commensalism and parasitism. Mutualism is a symbiotic interaction where both or all individuals benefit from the relationship. Mutualism can be considered obligate or facultative. (Be aware that sometimes the term "symbiosis" is used specifically to mean mutualism.) Species involved in obligate mutualism cannot survive without the relationship, while facultative mutualistic species can survive individually when separated but often not as well (Aaron et al. 1996). For example, leafcutter ants and certain fungi have an obligate mutualistic relationship. The ant larvae eat only one kind of fungi, and the fungi cannot survive without the constant care of the ants. As a result, the colonies activities revolve around cultivating the fungi. They provide it with digested leaf material, can sense if a leaf species is harmful to the fungi, and keep it free from pests (Figure 6). A good example of a facultative mutualistic relationship is found between mycorrhizal fungi and plant roots. It has been suggested that 80% of vascular plants form relationships with mycorrhizal fungi (Deacon 2006). Yet the relationship can turn parasitic when the environment of the fungi is nutrient rich, because the plant no longer provides a benefit (Johnson et al. 1997). Thus, the nature of the interactions between two species is often relative to the abiotic conditions and not always easily identified in nature.
 
Commensalism is an interaction in which one individual benefits while the other is neither helped nor harmed. For example, orchids (examples of epiphytes) found in tropical rainforests grow on the branches of trees in order to access light, but the presence of the orchids does not affect the trees (Figure 7). Commensalism can be difficult to identify because the individual that benefits may have indirect effects on the other individual that are not readily noticeable or detectable. If the orchid from the previous example grew too large and broke off the branch or shaded the tree, then the relationship would become parasitic.
 
Parasitism occurs when one individual, the parasite, benefits from another individual, the host, while harming the host in the process. Parasites feed on host tissue or fluids and can be found within (endoparasites) or outside (ectoparasites) of the host body (Holomuzki et al. 2010). For example, different species of ticks are common ectoparasites on animals and humans. Parasitism is a good example of how species interactions are integrated. Parasites typically do not kill their hosts, but can significantly weaken them; indirectly causing the host to die via illness, effects on metabolism, lower overall health and increased predation potential (Holomuzki et al. 2010). For instance, there is a trematode that parasitizes certain aquatic snails. Infected snails lose some of their characteristic behavior and will remain on the tops of rocks in streams where food is inadequate and even during peaks of waterfowl activity, making them easy prey for the birds (Levri 1999). Further, parasitism of prey species can indirectly alter the interactions of associated predators, other prey of the predators, and their own prey. When a parasite influences the competitive interaction between two species, it is termed parasite-mediated competition (Figure 8). The parasite can infect one or both of the involved species (Hatcher et al. 2006). For example, the malarial parasite Plasmodium azurophilum differentially infects two lizard species found in the Caribbean, Anolis gingivinius and Anolis wattsi. A. gingivinius is a better competitor than A. wattsi but is susceptible to P. azurophilum, while A. wattsi rarely contracts the parasite. These lizards are found coexisting only when the parasite is present, indicating that the parasite lowers the competitive ability of A. gingivinius' (Schall 1992). In this case, the parasite prevents competitive exclusion, therefore maintaining species diversity in this ecosystem.
Summary
The species interactions discussed above are only some of the known interactions that occur in nature and can be difficult to identify because they can directly or indirectly influence other intra-specific and inter-specific interactions. Additionally, the role of abiotic factors adds complexity to species interactions and how we understand them. That is to say, species interactions are part of the framework that forms the complexity of ecological communities. Species interactions are extremely important in shaping community dynamics. It was originally thought that competition was the driving force of community structure, but it is now understood that all of the interactions discussed in this article, along with their indirect effects and the variation of responses within and between species, define communities and ecosystems (Agrawal 2007).
from http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/species-interactions-and-competition-102131429
 
Sorry about being so long winded but I did not want to leave myself open to criticism that I left anything out even if it is not really relevant to this discussion.
 
Now that we have reached a basic understanding about what competition is all about, the one theme that runs trhough the above from start to finish- is this is in nature, in functioning self sustaining ecosystems. And therein lies the rub. An aquarium could not be further from being a real ecosystem. We can go into the woods and study the balance between plants and bacteria, we can do it in ponds, in oceans.
 
An aquarium is not [SIZE=12pt]"an ecological community"[/SIZE], it can not be defined as such. Communities exist naturally, nothing in any fish tank got their in any natural way. From the actual container to almost every single thing in it, they all got there the same way. Human beings put it all there. Most aquariums are not even close to being natural. We put plants native to Asia in tanks with fish from Brazil and water and whatever it contains from our local tap. An aquarium is in no way natural beyond the fact that everything that goes into it that is not man made actually does exist somewhere in nature. The closest we can come in this respect is a biotope and even then it is nowhere near a real natural system unless one can put all of the organisms and resources found in that biotope nature into such a tank ecosystem.
 
And as for the resources in an aquarium, whether you wish to discuss plants, fish, inverts, bacteria etc. Almost all of them are there because of the direct or indirect actions of the human fish keeper. Even the water goes in by artificial means. I would argue that while we as fish keepers usually want colonies of bacteria in our tanks, we exercise little control over getting them intentionally. And when it comes to plants this is especially true.
 
We select the types and number and size of every single plant that goes into a tank. Moreover, we put in many more plants than the resources in a tank can support. Go ahead and set up a tank and cover 75% of the substrate with them. Now sit back and watch your tank. Close the lid and add nothing to that tank at all. Put it in natural sunlight or even use a light to simulate the sun similar to how light would be in nature. How long will the plants live? There is no competition for resources in an aquarium because there are none. We have to add them regularly. If we do not, the plants will die. Looking at this another way, plant a tank slightly, keep fertilizing it and the plants grow and spread. The more nutrients for the plants we make available, the more they spread and grow until finally they have to pruned. None of this is competition, not of it is natural, it is not an ecosystem.
 
The same would apply to the fish we add. If human intervention does not add food, they will starve to death.
 
And lets touch on the nitrifying autotrophs now. Fish keepers want these in our tanks. And we put them there intentionally and encourage them to grow just like we do with live plants. We add bacteria in any number of ways, we almost always get some simply by filling our tanks with our tap water. But we also seed tanks with bacteria carrying items from other tanks or even buy and add them. Again almost none of this is natural except the presence of bacteria in tap water. But it still only gets into a tank because of human action.
 
So it should be obvious to most folks that there is no ecosystem in an aquarium and further, humans do not compete with anything in a tank. Despite not competing, we have total control over what happens in a tank. Even when that control may be accidental rather than intentional. An example is new fish with unseen ich going into a tank. nobody wants to introduce ich, but our actions cause it.
 
Here is an example of natural competition between bacteria and plants in a tank. Set it all up and get it healthy and functioning and then stop interfering. No electricity, no fish food, no plant nutrients. add nothing. Now tell me what the last things to die in that tank will be. I guess they be whatever out competed all the rest. What you will find is the nitrifying bacteria will be some of the last life forms to go.
 
And it is for these reasons that one cannot refer to what goes on in an aquarium as competition. I can cause the bacteria in a planted tank to multiply simply by removing some number of plants because i don't like the way they look. Have the bacteria then out competed the plants or have I changed the balance by interfering?
 
And for all of the above reasons the only way one can discuss actual competition between plants and autotrophic nitrifiers is to look to nature. And when one does, what you see in terms of the interaction between the two species is not competitive exclusion but rather a degree of cooperation and symbiosis. That is why one finds nitrifiers living on and alongside plants in nature and even in tanks. That is why neither species eliminates the other in competition. They share the resources. And they do this in terms of ammonia and ammonium because they exist together when in water (even the water in soil) and because plants normally take up NH4 while the bacteria NH3. this facilitates sharing resources.
 
And it would be very simple to end the discussion here, but there are instances where there is ammonia in water whose pH causes total ammonia to be 100% ammonium. One hears how nitrification ceases. An urban myth. There are strains of bacteria which normally thrive on NH3 which also are present and working in water and soil with a pH of 4.0 or a tad lower. It turns out they have some receptors for NH4. When faced with a no available NH3 environment, they are able to process the ammonium, albeit less efficiently than they can process NH3. But don't take my word for it, read this: Nitrification in a Biofilm at Low pH Values: Role of In Situ Microenvironments and Acid Tolerance http://aem.asm.org/content/72/6/4283.full
 
I would note that in nature, in biology, in an ecosystem many resources are limited which fosters competition between species. In an aquarium the resources present are there soley because we add them. A tank needs constant additions for whatever is in it to survive. If we stop putting things into the tank and removing the bad things, everything dies. Neither he plants, fish or bacteria can up and move to a nearby tank. They can not evolve. They can do nothing to change this. There are no naturally occurring resources in a tank.
 
So if one want to understand the relationships between plants and nitrifying bacteria, one must study these in nature in a functioning ecosystem to understand whether they compete each other into extinction or they manage to coexist. At best you can argue that the actions of the human fish keeper come closest to being competition because what we do determines all that happens in a tank. This might qualify as interference competition, except we are not a part of the system. Whether a tank exists or not, whether it thrives or not has very little to do with natural competition and everything to do with fish keeper behavior.
 
In nature many organisms share resources without eliminating each other. They may affect the population sizes, but that is far from out competing. A tank Is a system where the resources are not limited because they are constantly being renewed by a non-member of that community, not by nature. Like I said, take and established healthy tank with plants and fish and nitrifying bacteria in it and remove the fish and stop adding fertilizer and the last things alive will become the bacteria. The nitrifiers will just go dormant and some can last a very long time before they are all gone and not able to recover. Bottled bacteria can survive in a bottle easily for a year, can any plants do this? Does this mean I can argue that the bacteria can out compete the plants? If i put a live plant into the same dark resourceless bottle with the bacteria, it will die and what results may actually help the bacteria to survive even longer. Is this competition?
 
If you look at the bacteria in nature, they are very often found in the substrate, just as they are in many aquariums. They do well there because there is no light. The ammonia they need also penetrates to some extent. So even as the plants are busy taking up ammonium via their leaves, there is NH3 for the bacteria near the plant roots. And those roots may even be supplying the bacteria with the O they need to function. In the absence of the intervention of man adding nutrients via crop fertlization and other ways to create run offs into natural aquatic ecosystems, the amount of ammonia available for aquatic plants is normally limited. If the plants are taking up all the ammonia, why are there so many nitryfiyng bacteria and archaea in environments where plants are thriving without the interference of man?
 
And even when man adds fertilizers to encourage plant growth in nature, this does not result in the plants eliminating bacteria, it results in more bacteria. And this is true even though the plants can uptake the NH4 at a much faster rate than the bacteria can uptake the NH3.
 
So I will simply toss the competition ball back into your court. All you have to do is show how species competition can happen in a basically man made and sustained artificial
environment. How can any species out compete another when the nutrient resources are not limited. Each will find its own niche and they will coexist. neither will eliminate the other.
 
And none of the above has delved into the nitrogen cycle itself. I have stated that plants are an integral part of the nitrogen cycle along with the bacteria and other organisms. I am happy to read any scientific work that you can provide which shows this not to be the case. I would remind you that there are strrains of AOA and AOB that can exist at ammonia levels too low to support plants. And some of these strains are in our tanks. (Read Tom Barr on this. see the quote from him further down in reference to elodia and ammonia at .5 ppm.)
 
In nature, when man does not artificially introduce nitrate into the environment, where does the nitrate which plants consume originate? If the plants are out competing the bacteria, there should often be very little or no nitrate.
 
Nitrate salts are found naturally on earth as large deposits, particularly of Chile saltpeter, a major source of sodium nitrate.
Nitrites are produced by a number of species of nitrifying bacteria, and the nitrate compounds for gunpowder (see this topic for more) were historically produced, in the absence of mineral nitrate sources, by means of various fermentation processes using urine and dung. Nitrates are found in man-made fertilizers.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrate
 
Eliminate man made ferts and the primary way for many environments to have a supply of nitrate is from bacterial action. If the plants out competed the nitrifying bacteria in such habitats, they, in essence, would be committing suicide. So can you argue that plants do this and provide the science to back it up?
 
But read up on plants and nutrients. Most plants do not subsist on ammonium as their only or even primary source of N, they also use nitrate. Some plants actually rely more on nitrate than ammonium. Read what Ton Barr wrote in 2005 when asked "Is there a preference by the plants for ammonia vs. nitrates?"
It depends on the plant in question.
There is no rule because the plants we keep have not all bene tested, only maybe 20 or so.

Wheat for example prefers NO3.

Generally the issue is less defind by increasing growth ratesas it is fish health and algae blooms.

I find it very hypocritical for folks to suggest NH4 dosing, high fish loading etc and then in the same breath tell me that the high NO3 which really are not that high and has a lot more dosing flexibility is better for plants.

NH4 is very toxic to small fish and very useful(Increasingly more as the light intensities are increased) when added can easily induce algae blooms.

Now all aquatic plants do quite well with a trace amount of NH4 from fish etc, and most from KNO3 dosing.

Why folks would like to increase the growth of plants more is really the key question here. At what cost for the method involved?

In terrestrial agriculture, do we have fish and shrimps? No.
Do we have algae? Not anything that bother's crops or farmers.
So it these cases, yes, the addition for some crops is very useful.

Plants use more energy to use NO3, but they can store and have a lot more access to larger amounts by a factor of 100-1000X more than NH4.

I'd rather have a slightly slower growth, than higher growth with a lot more risk to fish health and algae blooms.

If you look at Diana Walstad's book on this topic, you'll see my point.
There is a figure that illustrates that NH4 is preferred in Elodea.

But at what concentration?
Yuo will note that the rate of uptake falls with NH5 as it hits 0.5ppm.
It's zero, the rate of uptake is essentially zero there.

Now look what occurs with NO3 all the way down?
It starts up and is fast when the levels of NH4 are less than about 0.5ppm of NH5.

Try adding 1-2ppm of NH4 to your tank sometime, it'll kill all your fish.

Try adding 10-20ppm of NO3. No effect.
from http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2405-Ammonia-vs-NO3
 
(Tom is more of a plant expert than a bacteria expert. I can add 1 ppm of ammonia to a tank with a variety of fish in it and if the pH is low enough to hold down the amount of toxic NH3, the ammonia will be gone long before it harms and certainly before it kills any fish. So he was not quite accurate in that respect/ perhaps if he tried to maintain that level for an extended period of time it would harm fish. But to do that he would also have to either inhibit the growth of any AOB or else keep adding ever increasing amounts of ammonia to stay ahead of the bacteria in order to maintain that 1 ppm level.)
 
or in 2007
 
I'm not trying to get rid of NO3...........just NO2/NH4.
Good steady plant growth=> no NH4.
Good aeratrion, aerobic filtration=> no NH4/NO2.
from http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/3356-Filtermedia-to-break-down-ammonia-nitrite-and-nitrate
 
Gee, Tom Barr is indicating tank ammonia in a planted tank will not be there due, to some extent, from aerobic filtration- I believe this means bacteria . And I can find more quotes where Tom indicates nitrification and plants both are ongoing in even the highest tech tanks.
 
As for that old objection that light + ammonia = algae, I can show you how to prevent this during cycling with plants where ammonia is being added to fill the cycling gap between ammonia creation and plants via the presence of bacterial colonies. It is not all that hard to do over the period of time involved and with the amount of ammonia needed. In fact I will be doing just that in a forthcoming article for the site. This is a far cry from my stating that one can be adding largerish doses of ammonia to a planted tank for any amount of time while leaving the lights one etc . One needs to do things a specific way to prevent the algae. But the way is simple and a lot easier for a newbie than trying to plant up a very sophisticated heavily planted first tank. And it will work in any level of plants that is not extremely low, i.e. a tank with only a couple of small plant, and it will work all the way up to a heavily planted tank.
 
I am happy to hear from anyone as to why any aquarium is actually a functioning ecosystem if you feel I am wrong in this respect. I would love to hear how plants and bacteria can compete in an environment that is essentially devoid of naturally occurring resources. To hark back to my comment about a race between and adult and a child the adult will always win unless I jump on my Harley, ride out onto the track and scoop up the child and speed past the adult and across the finish line. The child did not outrun the man, human interference cause the child to cross the line first. What is the real difference between this and the fish keeper deciding how and what to put into a tank? if you slant the race, you slant the outcome. If you want to know about plant/bacteria competition look the those studies I quoted and which three dismissed as not being at all relevant, that is the only way to get a valid answer here.
 
How can we talk about competition in an aquarium when the main job of the fish keeper is to keep everything in the tank healthy and thriving, nature itself provides almost nothing directly. We actively work to blunt competition in a tank.
 
TwoTankAmin said:
Now that we have reached a basic understanding about what competition is all about, 
It seems that, despite quoting all that text, you have not. "Competition" can occur in a natural ecosystem, or an artificial ecosystem. The definition stays the same.
 
TwoTankAmin said:
An aquarium is not [SIZE=12pt]"an ecological community"[/SIZE], it can not be defined as such. Communities exist naturally, nothing in any fish tank got their in any natural way.
Somehow, I think you will struggle to find support for this bizarre assertion
rolleyes.gif
.  Communities can exist naturally, or through human intervention. Hence all over the world native species have problems with "competition" from human-introduced invasive species, which become part of the community.
 
Heres an excerpt from the Wikipedia page on the usage of the word "community" within ecology:
 
The term community has a variety of uses. In its simplest form it refers to groups of organisms in a specific place or time, for example, "the fish community of Lake Ontario before industrialization".
 
 
So you see, of course an aquarium is an ecological community.  
 
TwoTankAmin said:
I am happy to hear from anyone as to why any aquarium is actually a functioning ecosystem if you feel I am wrong in this respect. 
I find it astounding you need someone to explain this to you. A human-created aquarium ecosystem isn't likely to be as sustainable as a natural ecosystem, but its still an ecosystem.  In fact, one of my favourite books, that I have already recommend to you in this thread is titled "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium", written by microbiologist Diana Walstad. 
 
So as anyone who is reading can see, all you have done with your latest post is add another logical fallacy to your argument. 
 

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