African Cichlids or Discus?

[Icemist]

Hi,
I need some help with a decision and some advice. Happy to take on board any advice.

I was originally looking at setting up an African Cichlid tank, but have recently taken a shine to Discus.

I am about to start the tank cycling, but have slowed down due to making this decision. I have read my article on both and watched heaps of YouTube clips but are still unsure.

So I have a number of questions:

1. The standard PH on my taps is around 7.2, which puts the PH between both.

2. Has anyone had experience with either of these types of cichlids and is one easier than the other?

3. Since the PH is at 7.2, should would one be easier to maintain that the other?

4. Is it also easier to drop the PH or increase the PH since my water is near the middle of both.

5. And is there any natural way to decrease of increase the PH?

Advice needed!!!!

 

[Essjay]

You need to find how hard your water is; hardness is more important than pH. Your hardness should be somewhere on your water company's website. If you can find it, post it here. We need the number and the unit as they could use any one of half a dozen units. If the website doesn't give it, phone them and ask.

Rift Lake cichlids need very hard water, but Rift Lake salts can be added if tap water is not hard enough.
Discus need soft water. If tap water is not soft enough, it can be mixed with pure water such as reverse osmosis (RO) water to dilute the hardness minerals.

 

[neoyyf]

Yes both types are like the extreme opposites of each other. You must find out your tap water parameters and do a lot of research on keeping either. Discus are not for beginners, theyre picky eaters, slow moving and get stressed easily. African Ciclids are semi aggressive, fast moving and easy to feed.

But most importantly you need to find out if your tap water is suitable otherwise they wont live long

 

[Icemist]

Hi,

This is from the local water supplier website:

Hardness (total) mg/L

ADWG Aesthetic Criteria: 200

Minimum Concentration: 27.0

Maximum Concentration: 56.0

Mean Concentration: 36.7


Alkalinity (total)

Minimum Concentration: 27.0

Maximum Concentration: 49.00

Mean Concentration: 38.00


PH (total) pH units

ADWG Aesthetic Criteria: 6.5 – 6.8

Minimum Concentration: 7.40

Maximum Concentration: 8.89

Mean Concentration: 7.76

ADWG: Australian Drinking Water Guidelines (2011)


I also have tank water as well, but it read a reading of 7.2 PH.

 

[Byron]

You have very soft water, so from the perspective of the fish mentioned in post #1 the discus will suit the water "as is" whereas rift lake cichlids will not last without significantly hardening the water. My suggestion here is to go with fish suited to your water; it makes life for you very much simpler, and it is significantly less of a risk for fish long term. Regular partial water changes of 50-60% weekly of the tank water is straightforward if you can just run the tap water into the tank (with a conditioner of course), but having to specially prepare the water beforehand is a lot of work. And "emergency" water changes which will occur for most of us are not a problem if the source water is good to go out of the tap.

Now to your numbers. The hobby primarily uses two units of measurement when it comes to hardness and alkalinity. Tour mg/l (milligrams per liter) is equivalent to ppm (parts per million) so that is easy. To convert to degrees (dG or dGH, dKH) you divide ppm by 17.9, and to convert in reverse you multiply degrees by 17.9 to get ppm (mg/l). So your general hardness at 36.7 ppm is 2 dGH [I used the mean, but the maximum at 56 ppm is still soft], The carbonate hardness (KH, or Alkalinity) at 38 ppm is also 2 dKH. The KH serves to buffer pH, preventing fluctuations; the lower the KH the more the pH will tend to be affected by various factors, but that is not a problem. Normally thee buildup of organics in the substrate results in the acidification of the tank water, lowering pH. This is fine if you go with most soft water fish including discus. Regular water changes, not overfeeding, not overstocking, are the primary means of keeping the pH stable when it lowers. Again, not an issue for soft water fish. I explain this because you will likely see the pH lowering below 7 over time.

The above should answer your first four questions in post #1. The fifth involves increasing or decreasing pH, and the above explains how it will likely lower naturally. In order to alter pH manually, so to speak, you need to do something with the GH and KH as the three are related, very closely. There is no need to fuss over this with soft water fish (discus, etc), and again, adjusting water parameters is not really as easy as it might appear, so going with what you have "naturally" is recommended. My GH/KH is even a bit lower than yours here, and I have thriving tanks of soft water fish including many wild caught.

Byron.

 

[Icemist]

What type of conditioner would you use?

 

[Essjay]

I use API Tap Water Conditioner, and I think Byron uses the same. This is very concentrated, using just 1 drop per US gallon (though the very big bottle is even more concentrated). It removes chlorine and binds metals, and nothing else. It does not detoxify ammonia or contain anything to 'promote the slime coat'.
But if your water company uses chloramine rather than chlorine, it splits the chloramine into ammonia and chlorine, removes the chlorine but leaves the ammonia in the water until the filter bacteria have had chance to 'eat' it. My water company uses chlorine so this conditioner is fine for me.

You may find that no shops near you stock API Tap Water Conditioner. My only local shop that sold it closed several years ago so I have to buy it on-line.

 

[Byron]

Yes, I do use the API Tap Water Conditioner. I have used several conditioners over the years, but I prefer this one. It is the most highly concentrated that I have seen, which means you use much less, and this should be considered.

Every substance we add to the tank water will get inside the fish, in the bloodstream and internal organs. The extent to which these additives are "safe" is misleading. We need to use a conditioner to deal with lethal substances like chlorine, but there is no benefit in over using them, or using one that does more than what is actually needed. The fewer substances added to a fish tank, the healthier the fish will tend to be.

So the first thing is to ascertain just what is in your water, and go from there. Most have chlorine, and all conditioners detoxify chlorine. If you also have chloramine, you need one that will handle that as well (several including the API will). The toxic metal detoxification is probably a good thing as a caution, since copper levels for example from the water pipes may fluctuate, especially with new pipes. Humans can manage with a higher "safe" level of copper than can fish. If ammonia or nitrite or nitrate is present in your source water (tap or well), you may need a conditioner that detoxifies whichever depending upon the level--note I am considering source, not tank, water here.

Beyond the above, we have some conditioners that include "suspicious" additives. Aloe vera is present in Nutrafin's conditioner and another one or two I can't remember; there is no benefit to this additive, and actually the reverse--studies have shown that it damages fish gills over time.

Use the amount of conditioner recommended for the volume of fresh water. There is no benefit to dosing for the total tank volume, regardless of what manufacturers tell you. If you change 50% of the tank volume every week, using double the conditioner means you will need to buy twice as much for no reason, and this stuff is not inexpensive.

The API is costly per volume, but when you realize how little you use per water change it is actually the most economical. Just 1 ml treats 20 gallons (for chlorine).

Byron.

 

[Icemist]

Thanks for the info.
I was wondering what is the best size to purchase a discus at, and how many would be OK for a 250 liter (66 gallon) tank.
Thanks

 

[Byron]

Thanks for the info.
I was wondering what is the best size to purchase a discus at, and how many would be OK for a 250 liter (66 gallon) tank.
Thanks

Most advice I have seen recommends purchasing from a reliable breeder directly. You are in Australia, so you may find breeders there. Stores are OK if they know what they're doing, but try to find out their source breeder. As for size, most suggest not purchasing very small discus. I'm trying to rack my brain and remember what Jack Wattley used to advise on this...I think he said nothing smaller than 2 inches in length. I do recall him saying never buy "baby" discus, they are too susceptible to everything.

You want a group of five minimum.

 

[Byron]

As I promised in my PM, I took a look through my issues of TFH for Jack Wattley's advice on size, and came up with 2 to 3 inches. Jack mentioned that at 3 inches or larger, the variety of discus should be discernible, something not always possible in smaller/younger fry. I also spotted his 10 gallons per discus in tanks, so five in your 230 liter/66 gallon tank would be it. I wouldn't get less than five, though I suppose four can work.

Byron.

 

[Icemist]

Thanks for the info