A Month Into My 1st Fishless Cycle...

[Mr Bliss]

I think 40 - 80 is in ppm. Each degree on the german scale corresponds to ~18 ppm, so 40-80 = ~2-4 dKH.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

I think 40 - 80 is in ppm. Each degree on the german scale corresponds to ~18 ppm, so 40-80 = ~2-4 dKH.

ah excellent thanks!

well two is on the low side but not terrible, 4 is just fine if I remember correctly!

I'd say stick with water changes for now to hold it steady, if it continues to drop, especially after the cycle has finished then you can contemplate buffering but you'd defo need to get a proper test kit before contemplating it. If you can't measure it accurately you shouldn't tinker with it as you've no way to measure the results.

 

[waterdrop]

Yup, MW answer is correct. Water changing should handle things fine now and kit will be needed before other decisions.

Between 0-3 german degrees you will find the KH will drop pretty fast from the cycling process (much slower after tank is cycled) but correct, at 4 and up the swings are not so quick.

More later...

~~waterdrop~~

 

[MattM1124]

Yup, MW answer is correct. Water changing should handle things fine now and kit will be needed before other decisions.

Between 0-3 german degrees you will find the KH will drop pretty fast from the cycling process (much slower after tank is cycled) but correct, at 4 and up the swings are not so quick.

More later...

~~waterdrop~~

Still waiting for the liquid KH test to get here but tonight my girlfriend and I are going to the LFS to see exactly what we want. I'll post what we're looking at when I get back tonight and hopefully you both can help me decided which ones and how many to get of each!

Another question while I'm typing...We recently moved and we made the downstairs living room into my bedroom. We had to wall it in so there's no windows in here. The tank won't get any sunlight. I have a hood and light but last time I had fish I think I would leave it on too long, worried about the fish not being able to see well because it was so dark. My question is how long should I leave the hood light on. Should it be on all the time since it's always so dark in here when I'm not around or should I only leave it on for so many hours and then maybe leave a lamp on or something? I know it's not good to turn it off and on since it scares the fish. Last time I think leaving it on too long caused there to be a lot of algae.

Also what's the best wattage to get for my tank size? It's 20 gallons but the tank is longer then it is tall. I liked the light that came with the hood, a natural daylight one but I can't find that anywhere. I now have one that has a purple tint to it. Would that effect algae growth?

 

[MattM1124]

Ok, so we went to the LFS tonight and I wrote down some of the fish I wanted to get. First of all, is it a bad idea to mix fish that require aquarium salt and fish that don't? Here are the fish that I like, if you could let me know if they're all compatible with each other it would be greatly appreciated.

Long finned red minor tetras
zebra danios
Honey sunset gourami
silver hatchetfish
upside down catfish
african dwarf frog

Requires aquarium salt:
red sword tail
dalmatian mollys
platys

If it's not good to mix fish who need salt and fish that don't I'll probably go with the top list then. I really want a frog or 2 and any combination of the other ones. Do the upside down catfish eat algae or just regular flakes? Also do the frogs need any special attention or considerations? Also a big question I have is I know most of these fish do best when in groups but how many total fish should I start out with and eventually have total give my tank size?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

right few things

1 - fish do not need light, they're actually happier and calmer in the dark! The lights are just for us to view the tank and for plant growth. So it depends weather you're going for real plants or not, if you've a decent smattering of plants then you want the lights on for around 8 hrs a day, if you've no real plants then just have it on when you're around. It's easiest to set a timer (just a cheapy plug in one from B&Q for a few quid will do) so it's on and off at the same time everyday then you don't need to think about it. with regards to the colour spectrum of the lighting i'll pass, lighting is not my field of speciality!

2 - none of the fish listed need aquarium salt. this is another old misconception which fishkeepers thought years ago but we now understand the issues better and know it's not true. What it comes from is some fish, mollies in particular, like hard alkaline water and without it they can often pick up lots of diseases. Now if you add aquarium salt to the water then this makes the water hard and alkaline therefore they prefer it and don't suffer with disease problems so much. So if you have hard alkaline water then you don't need to adjust anything for them they'll be just fine, if you don't then you can harden the water without adding salt.
Sometimes people extend this misconception to all livebearers which it seems the fish shop you went too have done!

Using salt unnecessarily is like using pH adjusters, it's not stable. As water evaporated form the tank the salinity of the water will fluctuate which is not good, it would be better to buffer it up with another method.

But again we're getting into tinkering with pH, and my advice is always (especially for beginners) to choose fish which are appropriate for the water that you have rather than change the water to suit certain fish.

So onto the fish that you like -

Long finned red minor tetras - do you know the latin/scientific name for these, not familiar with the species?
zebra danios - Fine, good hardy fish for beginners, very very active fish at the top of the tank
Honey sunset gourami - fine, be careful not to get a 'standard' dwarf gourami as they are very weak but the honey's are usually great
silver hatchetfish - make sure you have a tight fitting hood........ these guys can and will jump!
upside down catfish - bit big for your tank
african dwarf frog - fine, the main issue with these in a community tank is getting them to eat, but you can easily target feed by getting live/frozen food in a little tank water then sucking some up in a syringe and shooting it out right infront of the frogs! V sensitive to ammonia and nitrite so wait until the tank is mature and stable
red sword tail - fine
dalmatian mollys - i would avoid with your pH
platys - fine

So for stocking levels, we usually recommend 1" per gallon of water for beginners, after the cycle you can stock three quarters if this straight away, so you're aiming for 20" in total, 15" of that to start out with. Once the tank is mature (6 months trouble free running after the cycle) you can start adding a few more and take it up to 1.5" per gal, so 30" total.

Here's what I would do

Initial stocking after cycle -

6x zebra danios - 6"
6x tetras (assuming species turns out suitable) - 6"
3 x male swordies or platys - 6"

Then after 2/3 months

1 x honey gourami - 3"
2 x ADF - 2"

Then after 6 months you can add a bit more, I'd recommend a school of cories for the bottom as most of the fish so far are middle-top swimmers.

 

[waterdrop]

really nice write-up MW! really good stuff there. I'd say it would be really smart to stear clear of mollys, considering your soft water Matt.

Not having room windows actually makes it easier to control the light situation with your timers and helps you control algae a bit. The important thing about planning your lighting is to first choose between a lower light or higher light approach to your plant growing efforts. Unless they happen to be jumping into the planted tank hobby, most beginners will want to begin with a lower light and "easy" plant approach. There are some crude guidelines for this in that the older T12 (T12 means 12 eights of an inch, ie. a fluorescent tube with a diameter larger than an inch, which has been rare to see for a long time) bulbs had a particular efficiency and it was said that anywhere roughly from 0.9 up to maybe 2 watts per gallon with these bulbs was considered a "low-light" technique. Now all the details have blurred with the gradual transition to T8 and then T5 and various compact fluorescent shapes and efficiencies but in general, very crudely, you won't want one dim little light and you won't want a big multibulb super-bright setup for a beginner tank like yours. (Have totally forgotten here what you've said your plans are re live plants, lol) Once you get proper lighting then its on to plant nutrients.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[MattM1124]

right few things

1 - fish do not need light, they're actually happier and calmer in the dark! The lights are just for us to view the tank and for plant growth. So it depends weather you're going for real plants or not, if you've a decent smattering of plants then you want the lights on for around 8 hrs a day, if you've no real plants then just have it on when you're around. It's easiest to set a timer (just a cheapy plug in one from B&Q for a few quid will do) so it's on and off at the same time everyday then you don't need to think about it. with regards to the colour spectrum of the lighting i'll pass, lighting is not my field of speciality!

2 - none of the fish listed need aquarium salt. this is another old misconception which fishkeepers thought years ago but we now understand the issues better and know it's not true. What it comes from is some fish, mollies in particular, like hard alkaline water and without it they can often pick up lots of diseases. Now if you add aquarium salt to the water then this makes the water hard and alkaline therefore they prefer it and don't suffer with disease problems so much. So if you have hard alkaline water then you don't need to adjust anything for them they'll be just fine, if you don't then you can harden the water without adding salt.
Sometimes people extend this misconception to all livebearers which it seems the fish shop you went too have done!

Using salt unnecessarily is like using pH adjusters, it's not stable. As water evaporated form the tank the salinity of the water will fluctuate which is not good, it would be better to buffer it up with another method.

But again we're getting into tinkering with pH, and my advice is always (especially for beginners) to choose fish which are appropriate for the water that you have rather than change the water to suit certain fish.

So onto the fish that you like -

Long finned red minor tetras - do you know the latin/scientific name for these, not familiar with the species?
zebra danios - Fine, good hardy fish for beginners, very very active fish at the top of the tank
Honey sunset gourami - fine, be careful not to get a 'standard' dwarf gourami as they are very weak but the honey's are usually great
silver hatchetfish - make sure you have a tight fitting hood........ these guys can and will jump!
upside down catfish - bit big for your tank
african dwarf frog - fine, the main issue with these in a community tank is getting them to eat, but you can easily target feed by getting live/frozen food in a little tank water then sucking some up in a syringe and shooting it out right infront of the frogs! V sensitive to ammonia and nitrite so wait until the tank is mature and stable
red sword tail - fine
dalmatian mollys - i would avoid with your pH
platys - fine

I'm pretty sure the red minor tetras are also called Serpae Tetra (Hyphessobrycon eques). Here's a link to them:

[URL="http/www.petco.com/product/101109/Serpae...spx#description"]http/www.petco.com/product/101109/Serpae...spx#description[/URL]

I have been reading that they could be aggressive but I've also read if you keep them well fed it should be fine. I did have 2 last time and they didn't show any signs of aggression so it should be ok right?

I also really like those otocinclus' but I know I have to wait the 6 months and wait till there's algae growth since they are delicate fish.

Lastly, how long then would you suggest I leave the light on for them then. So I were to be home all day, how many hours of that day should they be on? Just getting an idea of how long for when I'm not home so I can set the timer.

Thanks again for all the help and I look forward to your response

 

[MattM1124]

really nice write-up MW! really good stuff there. I'd say it would be really smart to stear clear of mollys, considering your soft water Matt.

Not having room windows actually makes it easier to control the light situation with your timers and helps you control algae a bit. The important thing about planning your lighting is to first choose between a lower light or higher light approach to your plant growing efforts. Unless they happen to be jumping into the planted tank hobby, most beginners will want to begin with a lower light and "easy" plant approach. There are some crude guidelines for this in that the older T12 (T12 means 12 eights of an inch, ie. a fluorescent tube with a diameter larger than an inch, which has been rare to see for a long time) bulbs had a particular efficiency and it was said that anywhere roughly from 0.9 up to maybe 2 watts per gallon with these bulbs was considered a "low-light" technique. Now all the details have blurred with the gradual transition to T8 and then T5 and various compact fluorescent shapes and efficiencies but in general, very crudely, you won't want one dim little light and you won't want a big multibulb super-bright setup for a beginner tank like yours. (Have totally forgotten here what you've said your plans are re live plants, lol) Once you get proper lighting then its on to plant nutrients.

~~waterdrop~~

I'm not going to have live plants, just plastic ones. Right now I believe I have a T8 17 watt light. I'm just worried that it's too bright for my tank. It doesn't seem to bright but I was worried that that was causing so much algae growth last time. Which do you prefer, the natural daylight light or the one with the purple-ish glow to it? So you think the 17 watt bulb I have will be fine for a tank thats 30x12x12 (LxWxH)?

Another question I had was I also have a 15 ince bubble wand that I have at the bottom of my tank and is half the size of my tank's length. I have read some places that you don't want too many bubbles or too strong because it will hinder the the fish's swimming abilty. A 15" bubble wand isn't too powerful for the type of fish I want to get is it?

Sorry for all the questions!

 

[waterdrop]

Serpae have not received the label of "known fin nippers" for nothing! We've had a couple of beginners get pretty upset over serpae tetras of late and I can vouch that years ago I experienced it myself. They are just a very aggressive tetra that can grow fairly large. I would expect potential trouble between them and the Honey G.s and/or the swords/platys. The danios would probably be too fast for them and they wouldn't bother the cories or otos or adf I don't think. So they are not the best choice for your stocking plan but they are pretty and if you were to change your plan or have a different tank someday of bigger or more aggressive fish in general then the Serpae may fit in. Lemon tetras are very pretty, actually very similar to Serpae and somewhat less nippy, although they may be next down on the nippy scale. I think there are a bunch of much less aggressive tetras out there, let's see... Head&TailLights, glowlights?, black neons, neons themselves of course, cardinals, rummy noses, bleeding hearts, bloodfins, pristellas...

If you only plan plastic plants, that changes everything. I was about to say you could then just have a single light and click the button when you are in and want to look at the fish.. but with no windows that really would seem too much blackout time for them. You could definately use a lower wattage bulb. I like the purplish (red/blue gro-luxy kind of things) sometimes a bit better for bringing out fish colors, but its really personal choice and cheap to make trial changes now and then. You could get a cheap timer and have it on for 4 hours to include when you are there in the morning, then turn it off for a "siesta" in the middle of the day when you are not there and then turn it on for another 4 hours of your choice when you are there in the evening. The siesta might help keep algae down a little, although its not a cure for algae. Since there won't be plants, you could also lessen the evening on time I'd think.

Bubbles are personal choice plus observation and your own gut common sense observations of your fish. You are dead on about it not being good to blow them all around and its good to be sensitive to their behaviour in this regard. Note that the other way round can be true too with zebras and others often really liking the chance to swim in some real curent. While bubbles are helpful sometimes during fishless cycling, some fishkeepers will turn them off once the tank gets going with fish and just use spraybar surface movement. Noise from airpumps and bubblers is often a reason that people dispense with them.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[MattM1124]

Serpae have not received the label of "known fin nippers" for nothing! We've had a couple of beginners get pretty upset over serpae tetras of late and I can vouch that years ago I experienced it myself. They are just a very aggressive tetra that can grow fairly large. I would expect potential trouble between them and the Honey G.s and/or the swords/platys. The danios would probably be too fast for them and they wouldn't bother the cories or otos or adf I don't think. So they are not the best choice for your stocking plan but they are pretty and if you were to change your plan or have a different tank someday of bigger or more aggressive fish in general then the Serpae may fit in. Lemon tetras are very pretty, actually very similar to Serpae and somewhat less nippy, although they may be next down on the nippy scale. I think there are a bunch of much less aggressive tetras out there, let's see... Head&TailLights, glowlights?, black neons, neons themselves of course, cardinals, rummy noses, bleeding hearts, bloodfins, pristellas...

~~waterdrop~~

Well instead of the Red Minor Tetras I'll either go with the Black Neon, Neon, or Head and tail light tetras. The Head and Tail ones look like the black phantom tetras which is pretty cool.

I'm gonna get the 3 male sword tails like recommended but should I try to get all male in the tetras and danios too or is that not recommended or impossible? Also why all male swordfish? Just to make sure there's harmony in the tank?

Also, I don't have a quarantine tank at the moment and won't use one when adding these first fish but I would like to have one set up for future use. I don't want to get a big one though so would it still be ok to get one of those little tanks that comes with the filter and use that as a quarantine tank or it that too small? And then would I just fishless cycle that tank and just keep adding my own ammonia into it everyday to make sure it stays cycled until I get other fish to put in it? Or how do people typically keep their quarantine tanks cycled?

 

[waterdrop]

Great! sounds like you've just made some good progress on the stocking plan! I think H&Tlights look really cool.

OK, IMHO the dividing line is simply between egglayers and livebearers. You never have to worry about egglayers because the chances that eggs will make it to hatching and fry will survive are just very remote. So you shouldn't have to worry about danios and tetras at all as far as which sexes you've got, there just won't be any babies to worry about. Livebearers are a somewhat different story in that there's a greater chance some fry will survive and not be eaten, especially if they find enough cover in the tank to hide in. So the approach of only males ensures you will not have to worry about buying more tank setups just to raise the offspring. Note that buying only females never works because the females are almost always pregnant before you bring them home, so you get babies even if you brought home no males.

OK, now the disclaimer: I'm making generalizations here for us as beginners. For everything I said up there you may find on this forum very experienced aquarists who will point out exceptions to what I said. (If you think about it, a forum like this will, by definition, harbor the very experienced people speckled about the world, more than you would ever meet in normal local geographical life.) So someone may say that yes, some eggs will successfully make it in a community tank or, as another exception to what I said, X males together is not good. If that happens, then we should listen up, but I think I've repeated for you some generally safe wisdom for us beginners.

Also, again to repeat what I think I've said before (hopefully!), I wouldn't want to impose my own preferences on you of course! I happen to think that dealing with lots of new babies from livebearers is a -burden-. Plenty of people don't! Right in my own office at work there's a guy with a guppy tank and he loves it. But he's always pushing on me to take some guppies because he's got too many of course. To my mind, it would create a lot of stress, trying to get rid of new babies all the time or having the kids watch them get gobbled up by a community tank which of course see them as food.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[MattM1124]

you know there's some questions which sound simple enough but have a very long complicated answer, well that's one of them!! ha ha

there's more on this in the topic linked however the basics are that having a pH that is stable is much more important than it being a specific number, yes some fish have particular requirements but for most trops so long as it's within a reasonable range then it'll be much better for it to be stable and stay where it is than try and tinker it and for it to swing from one extreme to another.

the 'natural' pH of the water is determined largely by the KH (carbonate hardness) of the water. If you've a low KH then your pH will keep falling, if you've a high KH then your pH will be quite high and hold fairly steady there. The pH adjusting products largely work on adjusting the pH not the KH which means it's only a temporary effect, after a few days the KH takes hold and adjusts the pH back to where it wants to be, this means the pH swings which is not what we want!

Adjusting the KH is tricky and very very easy to get wrong and then things can quickly go to pan!

Ok, still didn't get the KH test yet but my ph today (Oct 11, 2008) is already back down to about 6.6. I just did the water change about 3 days ago and when I do a water change the ph goes bck up to about 7.6. It looks like I'm going to have this problem with my ph dropping unless I do constant water changes. Just to be prepared would you be able to tell me the best way to keep it up to a suitable level? I'm not going to do anything until I actually get the test though. And also does the dropping ph cause a problem for the fish I want to get?

 

[waterdrop]

Yeah, we'll get into it but I gotta watch the carolina game for now and then go to a party

Basically, you can use baking soda to doctor up your water during fishless cycling and you can used crushed coral to doctor it up later after you have fish, but if water changes do the trick after you have fish then its better to do nothing, so we'll talk about all that.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[MattM1124]

Yeah, we'll get into it but I gotta watch the carolina game for now and then go to a party

Basically, you can use baking soda to doctor up your water during fishless cycling and you can used crushed coral to doctor it up later after you have fish, but if water changes do the trick after you have fish then its better to do nothing, so we'll talk about all that.

~~waterdrop~~

Lol..I totally understand man! Both the Pitt Panthers and Steelers don't play this week. Still some good games to watch though.

Ok, my KH test kit came in the mail today. I got the API KH liquid test kit. Incase your not familiar with it, here's basically what the instructions say. It wants me to add one drop at a time into the test tube and the test is complete when the test tube after having been shaken turns from blue to yellow. I did this for both my tap water and tank water.

TAP WATER....It took 4 drops to turn the test tube water from blue to yellow.
TANK WATER....It took 3 drops to turn from blue to yellow.

Here's what the chart says:

# of Drops dkH ppm KH / GH
-------------------------------------------------
1 1 17.9
2 2 35.8
3 3 53.7
4 4 71.6
5 5 89.5
6 6 107.4
etc......................................................

From what I was reading in the instructions that
0-3 is best for discus, arowana, elephantnose, neons, cardinals, plants

Most of the fish I want though are in between 3-6 and the swordtails are from 6-11. I'm guessing I'll just have to find a way to keep the ph up. If it only takes 3 days for the ph to drop back down, I'll be doing water changes twice a week. So hopefully maybe the coral is a better solution? If so can I just get that at a pet shop?

What are the Neons they are referring to? The tetras are in the 3-6 groups so it can't be the neon tetras.