40 Days, Cycle Won't Start, Help!

[eaglesaquarium]

I agree with you Daize.  The biggest thing that irritates me about this product and others like it is the "cover" they allow themselves for their claims.  For example, they claim "By day 5 to 7, you should be able to add 1 drop per gallon and the next day, ammonia and nitrite will be 0."   But, if it doesn't work like that, then they hide behind the statements about what might have happened since they shipped it.
 
Things like TwoTankAmin stated: "Oh yes, lets not forget that the bottle she used started out in California on the USA west coast. We have no idea to what conditions it may have been subjected along the way. It is possible that during the trips until she received it that some of the bacteria did die back which could also slow things down a bit?"
 
The idea in buying these products based on their claims is that they should have investigated the shipping process and worked out how to make sure that it works - each and every time.  It frustrates me that this type of claim is accepted by some.  Would you be pleased with a purchase of fish and had this same sort of attitude/apathy towards how the product is treated in transit and storage?  Of course not.  Shipping "live" bacteria is no different.  You are paying for each and every cell of bacteria that is loaded into the bottle, just as you are paying for each individual fish.  If half of them die in transit, for whatever reason, that reflects on the company.  A fish supplier who sends out fish and half of them die in transit would be a fish supplier that I would never use again.  Sending bacteria should be much easier, but that doesn't mean that it should be done willy-nilly.  If it costs a bit more to ship in order to ensure that the bacteria arrive to your house in perfect condition, then so be it.  Buying a product and then having to be subjected to the roulette wheel of possible bad outcomes is not exactly good practice, in my opinion.

 

[snazy]

Shipping the product in a suitable way is not the only problem, some shops store it in completely unsuitable conditions so that's why most of the time the product does nothing.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I don't care who is responsible for the mishandling, ultimately it reflects on the company that makes it.  They need to ensure that the proper steps are taken to keep it as viable as possible, because it is their product.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

eagle- that is a bit silly. So you buy a bottle from Dr Tims for me because I am coming through Philly and will pick it up. You leat it get too hot for a few hours so a perfectly good bottle suffers some and I pick it up. I go home and use it and it takes longer to work than I had hoped. Clearly this is the company's fault. Perhaps they should have had round the clock guards on that bottle. And boy they sure should have known that Midlands was about to go under.
 
All a company can do is make a best effort. So lets assume Dr. T had a written agreement from Midlands to keep the product within the specified temperature guidelines. Now suppose Midlands let a few cases get degraded to differing extents and still sells on the product. How should Dr H know this? he is in CA and they in the UK? The best answer would be not to sell the stuff overseas via distributors. And that would mean folks like daize could not get it in any condition.
 
But this all misses my points above. Lets rehash the only two pertinent facts. Fact one, daize tried to fishlessly cycle her tank for 40 days and got nowhere. Now she has worked with Dr Tim's product for 10 days and looks close to cycled. Lets say it takes another 4 days to confirm that. If this proves to be how it goes, how would the results compare with the average fishless cycling threads on this site?
 
daize, I have no clue what your exact emails to Dr. Tims said nor exactly what was reported back. All I could see was what you posted here, I am willing to bet any modification from his site directions resulted from something you reported. In my defense I would note his directions in the long article said dose at least 1 drop/ gal (and as much as 2 by inference). There was no instruction to test only to record the number of drops. You decided to test with the API kit, didn't like what you saw and contacted them. The instructions said to dose the next day at 1/2 the 1st day's dose. Then test. But by then you had taken action resulting in a change of the original plan. 
 
Further this is what you said before the bottle even arrived. "Okay TTA, thanks for clearing that up.  I still think that it would be a bad idea to add more ammonia if there's been no drop, since it clearly wouldn't be working as intended, but as long as initial ammonia has dropped then I will go ahead as instructed."
 
You were already setting yourself up not to follow the original instructions before you started. Nowhere on Dr Tim's site does it tell you to test on day 1 or to wait, it just says dose the next day at 1/2 the original dose test than wait. You took it upon yourself you override the directions. And then you told them you are using API test and that gets a somewhat standard response from them. I am wondering what would have happened if you had simply followed the directions from the start is all. And lets not forget what Dr T wrote back to you:
"As long as you do not exceed 5 ppm as nitrogen (which you have not) you're fine so go a head and add the One & Only and start cycling the tank.
When the test kit reads about 0.5 add another 16 drops.
Again don't worry about reach some value - just add the ammonia and let the bacteria do their job.
Lastly, the API test will read 0.5 ammonia for several days even when there is no ammonia in the tank so don't worry about that."
 
But like I said, water under the bridge. Lets see how things shake out from here. Hopefully your next post shows you tested 0/0 and have dosed 16 drops and will test in 24 to see if you get 0/0 again The goal is to be cycled and then to get some fishies .
 
 
 
When you started you said you had 1 ppm on day two look at your post- .5 ppm-

 

[eaglesaquarium]

eagle- that is a bit silly. So you buy a bottle from Dr Tims for me because I am coming through Philly and will pick it up. You leat it get too hot for a few hours so a perfectly good bottle suffers some and I pick it up. I go home and use it and it takes longer to work than I had hoped. Clearly this is the company's fault. Perhaps they should have had round the clock guards on that bottle. And boy they sure should have known that Midlands was about to go under.
 
All a company can do is make a best effort. So lets assume Dr. T had a written agreement from Midlands to keep the product within the specified temperature guidelines. Now suppose Midlands let a few cases get degraded to differing extents and still sells on the product. How should Dr H know this? he is in CA and they in the UK? The best answer would be not to sell the stuff overseas via distributors. And that would mean folks like daize could not get it in any condition.

 
I don't think so at all.  When you pick up something from a licensed vendor for the product, then they should be treating it properly.  If not, then the company should no longer allow them to sell the product.  If the product is being picked up from an individual, then all bets are off.
 
 
The issue is not with the product itself, but with the claim.  When you say that you can be fully cycled in 5-7 days, then they need to be on that number.  Anything less than that is, in my opinion, false advertising.  But, they always have the fall back position of improper handling.  The point is, when I buy milk, I need to know that it has been properly handled, and that it is safe to drink.  When I buy ice cream I believe that it has been properly handled.  When I buy fish, I need to trust that they are being properly handled.  If the bacterial additives are going to truly be effective, 100% of the time, then these companies need to ensure that their product is properly handled.  They should randomly check on the stores that sell them to ensure that they are properly handled.  It might cost a little more to do that, but for a fully reliable product, I believe that's the way it should be handled.  You can disagree with me, if you like.   That's fine.  But, the cases where the product fails to do what it claims just continues the propensity of many folks to call it "snake oil".  If they want to be viewed by ALL as a proper alternative, then they need to ensure that their products are handled properly.
 
 
Now, as to daize's results...  The product certainly seems to have had an effect and a very good one.  I wouldn't go so far as to say that she is nearly cycled.  The ammonia and nitrite have neither hit zero yet - yes, I know the claim is that the API kit shows 0.50ppm when "none" is present.  That's a claim I am not sure I truly believe without more convincing proof.  Secondly, the "fully" cycled dose of ammonia that she is supposed to be getting from this product has yet to come to fruition as well.  1ppm of ammonia should cycle through to zero ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours, but that hasn't happened yet.  So, while the progress is certainly encouraging, and it demonstrates that this product can speed the process up, it has not demonstrated a fulfillment of the lofty claims it makes.
 
 
I hope that daize's results come back as 0/0.  I really want her to have fish.  I really want these products to do what they claim to do.  But the variability right now is too great for me to be completely satisfied.

 

[daizeUK]

Eagle is right.  He never claimed that the company was responsible for bacteria left baking in his hot car, which would be silly.  He's saying that the company should be responsible for the product during shipping which is under their control and I agree.
 
To follow his analogy, if I buy milk from my local supermarket and then take the scenic route back home on a hot summers day, it would be my fault if the milk goes off.  However if I order milk from their website and it arrives at my house in their delivery van, it would be their fault if the milk is off.
 
Since I'm based in the UK and buy from Midland Reefs, then Midland Reefs becomes responsible for shipping the item to me and if they left the product to freeze in a van then I would expect them to provide a replacement.  In my case it's not so simple because Midland Reefs went bust the day after purchase and goodness knows what happened to the bottle after that.  I'm actually amazed and thankful that it arrived in working order like it did!
 
I think the part that annoys us is that if the bottle is frozen during shipping, it's highly unlikely there would be any recompense since the company can always claim, "Well, you obviously didn't follow instructions."  There's a scathing review on Amazon.com from someone who had this problem.
 
Fortunately, I don't think that any of this applies to me.  I can see that the bacteria are alive and feeding and I have no issues with the bottle itself.  I'm happy to accept that it arrived in good condition, I have no reason to suspect otherwise, especially given my past history of slow progress with this tank.  I am not even going to argue with their claim that the product will normally cycle a tank within 7 days, because I still can't rule out other factors in my individual circumstance that might be inhibiting the bacteria.  Please note that nowhere have I said the product must be defective or that Dr Tims are not entitled to the claims they make.  There is no need to defend the efficacy of the product when it is not under attack.
 
However I will not be blamed for failing to follow these 'instructions':

The best and easiest way to fishless cycle is to combine adding the ammonium chloride with our Live Nitrifying bacteria. When used in combination, these will cycle the tank in less than one week. Again, do not add too much ammonia. We make it easy by providing a bottle of reagent grade ammonium chloride that is at a concentration such that adding 1 drop of solution to 1 gallon of aquarium water will result in an ammonia-nitrogen concentration of 2 mg/L (ppm).

The procedure is to add the ammonium chloride solution, shake the bottle of nitrifying bacteria well and add it to the aquarium. Measure ammonia and nitrite the next day and record. Add ½ dose and wait 24 hours and measure again. By day 5 to 7, you should be able to add 1 drop per gallon and the next day, ammonia and nitrite will be 0.

 
Those aren't instructions, it's a piece of marketing designed to impress you with how fast One and Only is.
 
1. The ammonium chloride is designed to give an ammonia-nitrogen concentration of 2 mg/L for 1 drop per gallon.  This doesn't tell me how much of the solution to add, only what the concentration will be for whatever I decide to add.  I might infer that I should add 1 drop per gallon, or I might infer that I can add up to 2.5 drops per gallon if I choose.  It's a product description, not an instruction.
2. I should measure ammonia and nitrite the next day after adding bacteria, but why?  Why does it tell me to record measurements but then not what do do with them, what's the point? 
3. Add ½ dose of ammonia... when?  Does it clearly state that I must add more ammonia 24 hours after adding the bacteria, you seem to think so but I think this is open to inference.  I might cross-reference with his quick instructions to fishless cycling which states it can also be used with Dr Tim's One and Only and that tells me to wait until both ammonia and nitrite are gone until I add more ammonia.  By extension of logic, I can assume this is probably why he tells me to record the measurements in (2).
4. Wait 24 hours and measure again.  What am I measuring for?  Should I add more ammonia at this point?  How much ammonia should I add?  It pretty much abandons me at this point and I have to use my own judgement again.
5. By day 5 to 7 I should be adding 1 drop per gallon each day and ammonia and nitrite should be zero.  Great... but what should I do if they're not?
 
I repeat, these are not instructions!  I find it quite incredible that anybody could be accused of slowing down their own cycle because they didn't follow these to the letter.  There is nothing to follow, there is simply a set of vague expectations.  With the greatest respect for your knowledge and experience, TTA, I believe that you are placing too much emphasis on these.  To quote the same statement again that you quoted yourself,
"Again don't worry about reach some value - just add the ammonia and let the bacteria do their job."
The instructions are vague because Dr Tim's are so confident the bacteria will work regardless.  I really doubt it matters if one adds ammonia 24 hours late or if there's a few drops too many; ultimately that won't stop the bacteria from working.  The only really important instruction is not to overdose the ammonia above 5 mg/L, that's the one that can really stop things working and that is why I am determined not to keep dosing ammonia without using my brain first.  If I had followed these instructions without thinking, adding ammonia every day, I would most likely have well over 5mg/L in my tank by now.
 
Unfortunately for me, there seems to be very little help available when the bacteria don't work at full speed as advertised.  Dr Tim's help support have gone rather quiet since I told them my results and asked for advice a few days ago.  I was hoping they might have light to shed on possible inhibitors, but oh well.
 
In conclusion, I don't think there is anything wrong with the product I received and I don't think I've done anything wrong that would drastically affect results either.  I'm still placing my bets on an inhibitor in the tank.  If I'm right, then the carbon I placed there on Sunday might help to get things moving quickly, time will tell.

 

[daizeUK]

Day 11 results
Ammonia and nitrite both less than 0.25ppm.
The ammonia is a nice satisfying yellow, I would have liked the nitrite to have been a bit closer to zero but I think it's close enough to continue with the dosing now.
 

 
I have to state for the record that I haven't seen any evidence of Dr Tim's warning about API not dropping below 0.5ppm.  Perhaps I would have seen this predicted effect if I'd tried to let it drop to zero sooner after adding the bacteria but there's no way to tell now.  I remain curious about why 2mg/L of solution only reads as 1ppm, hopefully my Salifert kit will turn up soon to give a confirmation reading.

 

[daizeUK]

Ha, just my luck.  Salifert test turned up today and it's not working, it registers zero ammonia in the tank after adding ammonium chloride.  API says 0.5ppm.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

daize- I personally sent you full copies of the cycling instructions on DrTim's site. There is no ambiguity if you read them yjtough. So let me re-quote the two relevant  paragraphs because they are pretty much crystal clear on what one should do when fishless cycling using the bottled bacteria. These two paragraphs are in the exact order as they appear in the directions on the site.
 
 

Whatever the source of your ammonia, the following is the way to proceed. Add the ammonia solution to the aquarium so that the ammonia concentration is between 2 and 3 mg/L (but, as mentioned, do not go above 5 mg/L). Record the amount of liquid you added. If you are not using DrTim’s One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria, wait 2 or 3 days and measure the ammonia and nitrite. Continue measuring ammonia and nitrite every 2 or 3 days until you start to see some nitrite. This is a sign that the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria are starting to work. Add half the initial amount of ammonia you added to the water on day 1. Continue measuring ammonia and nitrite every 2 or 3 days. Around day 9 to 12, the ammonia will probably be below 1 mg/L, maybe even 0, but nitrite will be present. Nitrite does not spike until somewhere between days 14 and 20. You want to be careful adding more ammonia because you do not want the nitrite-nitrogen over 5 mg/L as this will start to poison the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria. Add a little ammonia every few days (1/4 dose), making sure the nitrite does not go above 5 mg/L. Once you start to see the nitrite decrease, it will drop pretty fast. The cycle is completed when you can add the full dose of ammonia (2 to 3 mg/L-N) and overnight it all disappears to nitrate with no sign of nitrite. Now you can start to add fish.
 
Using DrTim’s Aquatics One & Only Live Bacteria: The best and easiest way to fishless cycle is to combine adding the ammonium chloride with our Live Nitrifying bacteria. When used in combination, these will cycle the tank in less than one week. Again, do not add too much ammonia. We make it easy by providing a bottle of reagent grade ammonium chloride that is at a concentration such that adding 1 drop of solution to 1 gallon of aquarium water will result in an ammonia-nitrogen concentration of 2 mg/L (ppm).
 
The procedure is to add the ammonium chloride solution, shake the bottle of nitrifying bacteria well and add it to the aquarium. Measure ammonia and nitrite the next day and record. Add ½ dose and wait 24 hours and measure again. By day 5 to 7, you should be able to add 1 drop per gallon and the next day, ammonia and nitrite will be 0.

 
I am sorry, but I do not think those instructions are confusing. I assumed you had read both paragraphs. Nowhere does it suggest daily dosing. It clearly states dose 2-3 mg/L and do not exceed 5 mg/L. For fishless using his bacteria it tells you to dose ammonia 3 times: day 1- full dose, day 2- 1/2 dose and then, when you zero out, once more to test that you are cycled. About the only thing you might fault the directions for is not telling you he means ammonia-n. And all that does is cause one to over estimate the ammonia present using an ion based kit which, at worst, should cause them to under rather than overdose ammonia.
 
In fact, when I offered to set up my experiment last year I contacted Dr. H about the only thing that was not perfectly clear to me. And that was what to do if by day 7 the tank could not quite clear 1 drop/gal in a day. He said to wait a day and try it again that not all tanks were equal and some would cycle a bit faster and some a bit slower.
 
eagle- they do not guarantee everyone will be cycled in 7 days,  as you stated, they say you can be cycled in 5 -7 days. The exact words are "By day 5 to 7, you should be able to add 1 drop per gallon and the next day, ammonia and nitrite will be 0." That is in no way an ironclad promise that every time it will be exactly that, guaranteed. Read the first paragraph above and you can see he never gives exact days, rather a range of about when things should happen. But if you can show me any place on his site where there is a clear guarantee that all tanks will cycle in 5-7 days using his product, I am happy to admit I am wrong.
 

The point is, when I buy milk, I need to know that it has been properly handled, and that it is safe to drink.

So when you buy a quart of milk, bring it home and when you open it, it has turned sour, who are you blaming for that? The cow, the dairy, the processor/bottler or the store that sold it to you? You order fish online, the box arrives a day late and has dead fish, who do you blame? The exporter/fish farm, the wholesaler/breeder, the retail seller, or the shipping company? I have gotten and sent lots of boxes that arrived late with all fish alive, as have many other folks. So you can not out of hand blame the a shipping delay.
 
 
 
 
 

 

[daizeUK]

Yes you're right, I should have included both paragraphs.  It does explain the dosage of ammonium chloride quite clearly.  I had read it but then I got too wrapped up in confusion over conflicting instructions in his Quick Fishless Cycling guide, which seemed clearer to follow. 
 
So the real instructions should be:
1. Add 2-3mg/L of ammonia
2. Add half the original amount as soon as nitrites appear (which I failed to do because both his 'quick' instructions and the email to me said to wait until ammonia dropped and then add a full dose )
3. Add a little ammonia every few days until nitrites start to drop (which they did straight away, so not applicable when using bacteria).
4. When both ammonia and nitrites are zero, add the full dose each day until they are both processed overnight.
 
I'm actually a bit concerned about that last step now.  I added the full dose on two occasions when ammonia was about 0.5ppm and nitrite around 0.25ppm.  This is mainly because of the email instructions I got which told me that ammonia wouldn't drop below 0.5ppm.  But maybe they were wrong and the API kit would have worked all the way to zero if I'd let it?  Maybe that's the reason for the slow cycle, because I was actually redosing too soon.
 
Ah well, at least I've got that sorted out now, perhaps the cycle will start working as intended now that both are zeroing.  As you said, the rest is water under the bridge but I can see why you said it might be responsible for prolonging my cycle.  On the bright side, if you're right then I might not have to worry about any inhibitors in my tank after all.
 
I wish the website, the 'quick' instructions and the help line would all stick to the same story, it might have saved me a bit of headache!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Not quite right daize- blue text is mine
 
Day 1. Dose between 2 and 3 mg/L aka ppm using the ammonium chloride drops. For 2 ppm dose 1 drop/gal and for 3 ppm dose 1.5 drops/gal. Give the tank time to circulate it and then add the bacteria. Shake bacteria before pouring it in.
Day 2. Measure ammonia and nitrate and dose 1/2 the amount of ammonia you dosed Day 1. You will not exceed 5ppm no matter how much ammonia you dosed on Day 1.  1.5 drop/gal. x .5 = .75. Total 2 day dose = 2.25 drops = or 4.5 ppm. You can not exceed the 5 ppm danger level that way.
Test each following day until you read 0/0. With API kit your nitrite could drop to 0 but your ammonia still reads at .25-.50 ppm. In such a case, assume ammonia is 0 since you have not added any ammonia since day 2, nitrite can not drop to 0 unless ammonia has dropped to 0 first..
Somewhere around day 5 to day 7 you should, having tested 0/0, be able to dose 1 drop/gal and the next day test 0/0.
 
But if you go back and look, I basically posted the very same thing before your Dr Tim's box had even arrived. In Post 80, after you were a bit confused by his directions, I laid this out for you;

If you note, the short directions talk about testing on days up to 10 and then there after for a number more. The fishless with bacteria directions indicate you should be fully cycled in 5-7 days. (This could actually run a day or two more at most.)
 
I would suggest that you set up the tank with new water that has been dechlored at the recommended dose. Dose the ammonium chloride- 24 drops (16 x 1.5) x 2 ppm= 3ppm in 16 gals.). Remove any pre-filters, turn off the tank lights, turn off UV (if you have it). Shake the bacteria bottle well and pour it into the tank. Then have a nice evening and 24 hours later dose 12 drops of the ammonium chloride. You can test before and after you dose if it makes you feel better to know the levels.
 
Now do nothing but test until you see ammonia and nitrite both at 0. Then dose 16 drops and test in 24 hours. If ammonia and nitrite both test at 0, you are cycled. If not, wait for ammonia and nitrite to 0 out and then dose 16 drops and repeat the test 24 hours later. You should be cycled by then.

 
Now here is what I wonder. Lets suppose that you had not tested your water after you dosed the initial ammonium chloride. You would not have paused to contact Dr. H. and you would have added the bacteria right away. The next day you would have tested with the API kit, not seen real high ammonia levels and likely dosed the next 12 drops of ammonia. This would have altered what happened in the tank in terms of time frame. At worst I think you would have seen nitrites rise and fall as predicted but may have had some odd ammonia readings on the API kit over the ensuing week. No way to know as what is done is done.
 
The good part of this is you look to be dang close to 0/0. If nitrite goes to 0 but ammonia stays stubborn, I say its testing error and recommend you do a 50% water change, dechlor as normal and test ammonia. Unless ammonia is higher due to chloramine breakdown, dose 16 drops, go out dancing and tomorrow, about 24 hours from the dosing, test. Make it interesting and run both the API and Salifert side by side the next couple of tests.
 
Incidentally, if you live near Unit 9 Newbury Ret Pk, Pinchington Lane, Newbury Berkshire RG14 7HU, that is a Homebase.  I have the following instructions:

1) Go to Homebase (other sources of Ammonia are available) and buy some 9.5% 'Household Ammonia' solution (make sure whatever you buy doesn't have scent or detergent in it). This is the same stuff you can use to 'fishless cycle' a tank.

2) Measure out 470ml of distilled or deionised water (from Halfords or a hardware store or LFS RO water) using a measuring cylinder (you can get one from a home brew shop). A rougher way of doing this is to put a bowl onto an accurate kitchen scale, zero the reading and then pour in 470g of your water.

3) Using a children's medicine dosing syringe (any good pharmacist) measure out precisely 5ml of the household Ammonia and add this to the water. This gives you a 1000ppm stock solution.

4) Add 1 ml of the 1000 ppm solution to 9 ml of distilled water. This makes 10 ml of a 100 ppm solution.
 
5) Add 2 ml of the 100 ppm solution to 18 ml of distilled water. This makes 20 ml of a 10 ppm solution.

Then, as needed:

 6) Add 1 ml of the 10 ppm solution to 99 ml of distilled water. This makes 100 ml of a 0.1 ppm solution.
 7) Add 1 ml of the 10 ppm solution to 49 ml of distilled water. This makes 50 ml of a 0.2 ppm solution.
 8) Add 1 ml of the 10 ppm solution to 19 ml of distilled water. This makes 20 ml of a 0.5 ppm solution.
 9) Add 1 ml of the 10 ppm solution to 9 ml of distilled water. This makes 10 ml of a 1.0 ppm solution.
10) Add 2 ml of the 10 ppm solution to 8 ml of distilled water. This makes 10 ml of a 2.0 ppm solution.
11) Add 3 ml of the 10 ppm solution to 7 ml of distilled water. This makes 10 ml of a 3.0 ppm solution.
12) Add 4 ml of the 10 ppm solution to 6 ml of distilled water. This makes 10 ml of a 4.0 ppm solution.

13) Add 5 ml of the 10 ppm solution to 5 ml of distilled water. This makes 10 ml of a 5.0 ppm solution.

From Post #4 and #5 http/www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7947-Reference-solutions-for-Ammonia-and-Nitrite
 
Those should be relatively accurate test solutions, at least accurate enough to check aquarium test kits.
 

 

[daizeUK]

Question: since I started with a 24-drop dose of ammonium chloride, should I be dosing that much again now, rather than 16 drops?
 
I'd love to run the Salifert test but it doesn't seem to be working.  I tested it side by side with the API kit when it arrived today, added some ammonium chloride to the tank, the API kit turned to 0.5ppm but the Salifert test remained clear.  I double-checked the instructions, rinsed the test tube and ran the same test again but no reaction.  I think I've got a dud.  I'm wondering what to do about it now, I bought it from eBay and I don't think they'll refund unless I pay for return postage which is annoying.  I might try contacting Salifert directly instead.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

No- the test dose would be 16 drops. I set you up to be well cycled at 3 ppm. But to be safe to add a full load of fish all your really need is the 2 ppm test level. And the dose now is only a test dose, not a daily dose. The idea is once you can dose and get 0s the next day- you are cycled. Morover, the maintenance dose for the non-bacteria added fishless cycle is 1/4 the original dose and then only every 2 or 3 days.
 
Daize, before you conclude the salifert test is a dud, try this. Put about gal. of water into a bucket add 2 drops of Dr. T's ammonium chloride and swish it around. test with the Salifert see what you get. If it still reads 0, add two more drops, swish and retest. Or you can just use some household ammonia- since no fish are involved it wont matter if it has surfactants. Lets not entirely rule out the possibility the API kit is off? I could not track down anything usefull regarding Salifert on their site. Most of the English version says "under construction" and I could not locate the Dutch version.
 
Check out the Salifert bottles, maybe they have an identifying number indicating when the batch was made.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

eagle- they do not guarantee everyone will be cycled in 7 days,  as you stated, they say you can be cycled in 5 -7 days. The exact words are "By day 5 to 7, you should be able to add 1 drop per gallon and the next day, ammonia and nitrite will be 0." That is in no way an ironclad promise that every time it will be exactly that, guaranteed. Read the first paragraph above and you can see he never gives exact days, rather a range of about when things should happen. But if you can show me any place on his site where there is a clear guarantee that all tanks will cycle in 5-7 days using his product, I am happy to admit I am wrong.

 
My complaint was NOT just about the claims made by this product, but about this genre of product.  Tetra's Safe Start states that adding their product allows you to "add fish immediately".  
 
Dr. Tim's product states: (from his website)

   Eliminates new tank syndrome
    Instantly creates a bio filter
    Removes toxic ammonia and nitrite, naturally
    No sulfur or other offensive odors
    No wait needed
    100% natural

 
 
Granted, these are all marketing ploys, and folks should always research deeper and check the instructions carefully.  But, the marketing proclaims these products to be an INSTANT process.  Not 5-7 days, not 12-24 hours... INSTANT. 
 
If you look further on the Drtims website, they have more information like this in the FAQ:

How many fish can I add to the aquarium after dosing with One & Only?
This is the hardest question to answer because every situation is different. One & Only will dramatically reduce the time it takes to establish a biofilter in your newly set-up aquarium. However, even One & Only has limits.

 
 
Whoa... Look what happened to their ORIGINAL claim when pressed in the FAQ section:  INSTANT - NO WAIT NEEDED has changed to: "will dramatically reduce the time it takes..."  BIG difference. 
 
 
And, that is my problem with these products.  Their marketing doesn't match their product.  Certainly, they are not the only class of products to do this, but it does bother me.
 
 
 

The point is, when I buy milk, I need to know that it has been properly handled, and that it is safe to drink.

So when you buy a quart of milk, bring it home and when you open it, it has turned sour, who are you blaming for that? The cow, the dairy, the processor/bottler or the store that sold it to you? You order fish online, the box arrives a day late and has dead fish, who do you blame? The exporter/fish farm, the wholesaler/breeder, the retail seller, or the shipping company? I have gotten and sent lots of boxes that arrived late with all fish alive, as have many other folks. So you can not out of hand blame the a shipping delay.

 
If we must continue the milk analogy, there would need to be some investigative work.  Step one, check the expiration date.  Milk always has one.  If the expiration date has passed - that's MY fault.  When I buy the milk I always find the one with the latest date, because the milk is the freshest and theoretically would last the longest for me in my fridge.   If the date is still good, the next place to go would be the store.  If a lot of customers return milk to the store, the store should be investigating their shipping.  If the store is not alone in these returns, then the investigation goes back to the distributor, then the source.   Just like when spinach was found to be contaminated.  There is a trail to follow to find the source.   There is no difference in the bacterial additives.  Follow the trail.

 

[daizeUK]

Eagle - I agree with you that the website is unclear and they seem to word it differently on every page.  If you asked them, I bet they would say that both claims are true.. yes the bottle does create an instant biofilter because it contains live bacteria, however that biofilter may not run at maximum efficiency from the get-go, but the time to fully establish is dramatically reduced.  I'm sure they've got their backsides covered   Anyway, post here if you like http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/414863-the-science-of-bottled-bacteria-for-cycling-aquaria/ and we can have a good scientific discussion about it!
 
TTA - I followed your instructions on the Salifert test but I will post the results in your Test Kits thread http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/415015-ammonia-testing-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/, it seems more appropriate there.
 
Okay today's results - looked good.  Ammonia and nitrite both close to zero, down from just under 0.5ppm yesterday (I think I may have underdosed the ammonia slightly yesterday, the bottle spurted a bit and I had to guesstimate the number of drops).
 
Ammonia is a nice yellow again, Nitrite is still not quite touching zero, it looks to be about 0.1ppm, I'm not sure if that's a misreading or if it still needs a bit longer.
 
Now this tank is starting to look a lot closer to cycled to me!  I've almost forgotten why I started doing this, at some point it stopped being about fish and started being about chemistry... heh.  Anyway, looks like TTA might be right!