Yet Another Fishless Cycling Query! - Update

[nitrochicken]

Hi,

I've been reading this forum for the last few weeks now and I'm learning a lot.

I got my first tank 4 1/2 weeks ago(aquaone 320) and have been fishles cycling with ammonia.
After approx 2 weeks, my ammonia levels went down to zero and since than I've been adding 5ppm every 12 hours when the levels get back to zero.
For about 2 weeks now, my ammonia has been procesed quickly but my nitrate and nitrate levels are both off the chart.
Test for nitrite goes instantly purple in bottom of test tube and nitrate test is very dark purple.
The test kit I am using is the Nutrafin one.
I added some bicarb yesterday(water is very soft in Birmimgham) and changed 50% water as ph was down to 6.7ish, It is now back up to 7.5 the same as my tap water. Nitrate/Nitrite readings are still off the chart which is suprising to me as it's been diluted by 50%

Does this sound like it is coming along as it should? I was expecting nitrites to have fallen before now and I'm eager to get fish!

Thanks

Dale

 

[Miss Wiggle]

sounds like it's all going according to plan tbh, it can take twice as long for the nitrites to be processed than it does for ammonia because you get a nitrite build up (have a look at the topic 'when is a cycle finished' in the scientific section if you want some more info on this). don't be scared of water changes though, can do something like an 80/90% change if you like to get rid of some of the build up of nitrite and see how it processes from there.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Dale,

You mention that you are adding 5ppm of ammonia every 12 hours if the previous ammonia has dropped to zero. Generally it is recommended in our original RDD article that you only add ammonia once in a 24 hour period, even when it has dropped to zero prior to that.

The reason is that 1ppm of ammonia is processed by the A-bacs (ammonia oxidizing bacteria) into approx. 2.7ppm of nitrite, so the amount of nitrite produced is much larger. So 5ppm of ammonia could possibly produce, say, 13.5ppm of nitrite, way up above what the nitrite test can show you on the upper end. Your N-bacs (nitrite oxidizing bacteria) are no doubt beginning to multiply and do some work, but you just won't be able to see their progress for a long time. On top of this, they are generally much slower to develop than the A-bacs.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miss Wiggle]

well spotted WD, didn't see that myself....... hows your cycle going anyway, not had any news in a while?!

 

[nitrochicken]

I've just read through the article again and can see what you mean now. I understood it as adding ammonia every 12 hours, whoops! I guess I must have plent of A-bacs if thay are processing twice the ammonia of everyone else!

I think I'll change some water again when I get home and start adding ammonia only once a day. Hopefully I'll start seeing results soon.

Thanks

Dale

 

[Jazee B]

I've just read through the article again and can see what you mean now. I understood it as adding ammonia every 12 hours, whoops! I guess I must have plent of A-bacs if thay are processing twice the ammonia of everyone else!

I think I'll change some water again when I get home and start adding ammonia only once a day. Hopefully I'll start seeing results soon.

Thanks

Dale

Hi Dale, I'm new to all this fishy stuff myself and I made the exact same mistake!! I've been cycling my tank for almost three weeks now and apart from the odd pH drop i've been assured by all of the fantastic knowledgeable people on here that it's going in the right direction. Patience is the key word, mind you I do lack in that department. Good Luck with it all. Becky

 

[iankent]

sounds like it's all going according to plan tbh, it can take twice as long for the nitrites to be processed than it does for ammonia because you get a nitrite build up (have a look at the topic 'when is a cycle finished' in the scientific section if you want some more info on this). don't be scared of water changes though, can do something like an 80/90% change if you like to get rid of some of the build up of nitrite and see how it processes from there.

Something else which is probably worth mentioning in the scientific section (will head over there now ) - I don't see any reason for not doing a 100% water change during cycling, especially if the aim is to clear the nitrite backlog - the bacteria is in the filter, so isn't greatly affected by a water change anyway, and the filter media is probably still chocked full of nitrite even after you've taken all the water out!

 

[nitrochicken]

Thanks for the help everyone.
I changed about 70% of the water tonight when I got home, didn't want to remove any more as the plants didn't look too happy lying down! NO2/NO3 are still very high so must have been about 1000ppm yesterday!
Do you think it would be wise for me to change most of the water again tomorrow to hopefully bring the NO2 down to a measurable level?

I'm using the undergravel filter that came with the tank so I think it would be practically impossible to change 100% of the water and probably not good for the bacteria either I would guess.
I've been reading about UGF's on here and it seems that no-one seems to like them much. It definatley does make it hard to plant in the gravel too. I'm thinking of putting in a normal filter once the tank is up and running with fish and slowly changing over to that so I can eventually turn off the UGF and maybe use sand instead for better planting. I'm assuming this is ok to do?

Thanks

Dale

 

[iankent]

Thanks for the help everyone.
I changed about 70% of the water tonight when I got home, didn't want to remove any more as the plants didn't look too happy lying down! NO2/NO3 are still very high so must have been about 1000ppm yesterday!
Do you think it would be wise for me to change most of the water again tomorrow to hopefully bring the NO2 down to a measurable level?

I'm using the undergravel filter that came with the tank so I think it would be practically impossible to change 100% of the water and probably not good for the bacteria either I would guess.
I've been reading about UGF's on here and it seems that no-one seems to like them much. It definatley does make it hard to plant in the gravel too. I'm thinking of putting in a normal filter once the tank is up and running with fish and slowly changing over to that so I can eventually turn off the UGF and maybe use sand instead for better planting. I'm assuming this is ok to do?

Thanks

Dale

Hi Dale - in your case you are right, you shoudn't do a 100% water change as it would destroy all the bacteria! in all honesty, if it were me, I'd change the filter before you cycle your tank - it means a longer wait now as you'd basically be starting over (although a lot of the bacteria should be dragged into the new filter by the current!), but it'd be a lot less hassle than changing it once the fish are in!

as for the nitrite readings, if you keep track of what your last readable figure was (anything below 5ppm if you're using the API kit), and how much water you change between then and when your next readable level is, that'd be great! we can use that info to calculate your actual nitrite levels, which will help with a discussion we're having on the scientific section! if you can do that, don't combine water changes (i.e. doing a 50% water change followed by another 50% water change isn't the same as a 100% water change, it's approximately 75%!)

(p.s., the plants wont mind lying down on the bottom of the tank for a while - as long as they still have water they should be fine for 10 or 20 minutes at least (probably longer)
edit: what I meant to say is, even without water on the roots they should be fine for 10 or 20 mins - quite a few/most(?) aquatic plants will survive fine above water as long as their roots are soaked!

good luck with your cycling

 

[nitrochicken]

Hi Ian,
I don't think my results so far will be very helpfull to you. My kit only reads nitrite up to 3.3ppm and my last recorded amount under that was on 12/5 at 2ppm.
My cycle was started on 28/4 and I started adding 5ppm every 12 hours from 16/5. Only from today I will be reducing this to every 24 hours now I have been re-educated!
I've not really been testing often since then, just ammonia and pH as both NH2/NH3 have been off the chart.
As stated above I did 50% water change yesterday and 70% tonight. My nitrite test is now a little lighter coloured but still over 3.3ppm. I can keep you updated with the results from now if you would like?

As far as plants are concerned, I was more worried about them leaping from the gravel as they bent over! It's not easy holding them down.

With regards to another filter, I can see it would be a good idea to change it now but I want fish! I was thinking about running it alongside the UGF for a month or so then perhaps slowly reducing the flow from UGF by the blocking the output then eventually switching it off completley(or setting timer on/off every hour...2hrs...3 etc). Then I could put the fish in a bucket with the internal filter in the same tank water while I re-do the substrate/plants. It would not take me long as tank is very small(only 28L). What do you think?

While we are on the subject, do you have any recommendations for a small int filter suitable for my tank or are they all pretty equal?

Thanks

Dale

 

[iankent]

Hi Dale

Your results are useful - although as you said, by adding regularly at 12hour intervals will affect the results, but it'll still make a useful basis for some calculations

I see you've waited quite a while before adding ammonia - a lot of people tend to go for the add and wait method rather than the add daily method, as it often completes quicker (the add daily method takes longer, but builds up a much bigger colony of bacteria - could be useful if you're overstocking) if you go with the add and wait method, once you've raised the ammonia you need to wait for it to drop to 0 again before adding more

as already mentioned, now could still be a good time to add another filter - seeing as you're cycling the tank anyway and adding large amounts of ammonia, it would make sense to do that on the filter you're eventually aiming to get anyway! and any bacteria you have built up will move into the new filter - just leave the old filter switched off, and the circulation of the water should cause the bacteria to transfer quite quickly!

i've only used the Fluval 205 internal filter - did a great job, but is a bit noisy and takes up space in your tank (might not bother you, but I didnt like it after a few days lol!). if you have a bit of extra spare cash (and the space) I'd recommend an external - I got the tetratec ex700, it's nearly silent and the water looks really clear!

 

[waterdrop]

well spotted WD, didn't see that myself....... hows your cycle going anyway, not had any news in a while?!

sorry MW, super busy at work, bacteria still doing well, no2 not quite zero at 12h but if I had time to get fish I would go ahead - to tell the truth still debating which fish to get locally and which ones to maybe get online - that decision also makes me hesitate a little... ~~waterdrop~~

 

[nitrochicken]

Ian, I have been doing the add and wait method. I added 5ppm ammonia on 28/4 and it didn't drop to 0ppm until 16/5. Since then I was adding ammonia every 12 hours as every morning/evening when I tested again it had dropped back to 0ppm. I think it actually gets processed even quicker than this as I tested the water about an hour ago(approx 4.5 hours) since adding 5ppm ammonia and it had already dropped down to 1ppm.

I think an internal is probably best for me as an external is probably a bit of overkill! Will probably give the fluval a miss though if it is noisy.

Thanks

Dale

 

[nitrochicken]

Good news - I tested my nitrite this morning and it was down to 0ppm! I guess my tank has must have been capable of this for a while but with the levels as high as they were, the poor bacteria had their work cut out!
I'm going to keep it up for a few days now and hopefully it will keep processing ammonia/nitrate. Assuming all stays ok, I'll then change most of the water and get some fish.
I was thinking of getting 5 galaxy rasporas, 3 oto's and a couple of cherry shrimp. How does that sound, bearing in mind I only have 28L. Is that too many?

I'm going to leave the internal filter for now and see how I go with the UGF. I think an internal would take up too much room in the tank and an external will cost more thank the tank did!

Thanks

Dale

 

[Miss Wiggle]

no problem WD, thanks for the update. make sure you let us all know when you've taken the plunge and got yourself some fishies.

great news nitrochicken, sounds like you've got it cracked, keep adding 5ppm of ammonia daily for about a week more, if it all stays steady at 0 after 12 hrs then you're good to go. It's always best to carry on for a week after it's technically finished as you sometimes get a bit of a blip and if you'd put fish in straight off you'd effectivley be cycling with fish so ruining all your hard work.