Yay, Another cycling question...

[Aged_Cheddar]

OK, so some of you may know I have a different thread regarding another project, but this new project is heading a different direction so...

Anyway, my wife has been bitten by the aquarium bug, and would like to start her own, a small one 10g.

It's going to be a planted tank with single Betta, and a small group of probably Neon Tetras.

We have everything we need now (except fish and plants).

So...Cycling.
I could take media from my other tank, but I'm now battling ich...I think (another thread forthcoming), plus I'm currently in the middle of lowering the hardness in that tank...so that's out.

So, I'm curious...

What's the difference between say using Dr. Tim's ammonia combined with their "one and only nitrifying bacteria" vs. using Seachem Prime combined with Stability...do the Seachem products actually need fish to work? If so, that's out...not really interested in fish murder to cycle my tank.

Sorry if that's a Stoopid NoOb cycling question, but I just can't get my brain around the purpose of the Seachem products.

Also...since this will be a planted tank, can we cycle it with plants in it?

 

[Rocky998]

OK, so some of you may know I have a different thread regarding another project, but this new project is heading a different direction so...

Anyway, my wife has been bitten by the aquarium bug, and would like to start her own, a small one 10g.

It's going to be a planted tank with single Betta, and a small group of probably Neon Tetras.

We have everything we need now (except fish and plants).

So...Cycling.
I could take media from my other tank, but I'm now battling ich...I think (another thread forthcoming), plus I'm currently in the middle of lowering the hardness in that tank...so that's out.

So, I'm curious...

What's the difference between say using Dr. Tim's ammonia combined with their "one and only nitrifying bacteria" vs. using Seachem Prime combined with Stability...do the Seachem products actually need fish to work? If so, that's out...not really interested in fish murder to cycle my tank.

Sorry if that's a Stoopid NoOb cycling question, but I just can't get my brain around the purpose of the Seachem products.

Also...since this will be a planted tank, can we cycle it with plants in it?

I would just cycle it using some cheap ammonia from a hardware store that has ONLY ammonia with no perfumes. As for the stocking... I wouldnt do neons as they need a 20G or more. Also, in that small of a tank for a betta, I wouldnt have any tank mates besides nerite snails

 

[Rocky998]

I would just cycle it using some cheap ammonia from a hardware store that has ONLY ammonia with no perfumes. As for the stocking... I wouldnt do neons as they need a 20G or more. Also, in that small of a tank for a betta, I wouldnt have any tank mates besides nerite snails

Actually I take back not having ANY tank mates besides nerites... You should start out with tank mates like nerite snails to see if your betta is aggressive or not (meaning nipping the snails, or chasing them) if he is not doing that I'd look into chilli rasboras for a schooling fish. They'd be a good size for your tank

 

[Aged_Cheddar]

@Rocky998

Yeah, we know about the aggressive aspect of the Betta, I've been told before (years ago) that you're suppose to add the other fish first, and the Betta last...but, that was probably 15+ years ago, so concepts change etc...

As far as Neons, yeah I know 20g+ are preferred, I was making it more as suggestion of "fish that size"...Fortunately there are more that a few "tiny schooling fish" to choose from that are suitable to 10g tanks, the trick is, as you say, finding ones that the Betta isn't really interested in...We are a LONG way from making those decisions...the tank is still dry LOL.

I'd like to start cycling this tank this weekend, so I need to decide on a cycling method & whether or not to start the plants right away....from my VERY rudimentary knowledge, I "think" plants are OK to be in the tank during cycle, but there does appear to be conflicting info in this regard.

 

[Rocky998]

@Rocky998

Yeah, we know about the aggressive aspect of the Betta, I've been told before (years ago) that you're suppose to add the other fish first, and the Betta last...but, that was probably 15+ years ago, so concepts change etc...

As far as Neons, yeah I know 20g+ are preferred, I was making it more as suggestion of "fish that size"...Fortunately there are more that a few "tiny schooling fish" to choose from that are suitable to 10g tanks, the trick is, as you say, finding ones that the Betta isn't really interested in...We are a LONG way from making those decisions...the tank is still dry LOL.

I'd like to start cycling this tank this weekend, so I need to decide on a cycling method & whether or not to start the plants right away....from my VERY rudimentary knowledge, I "think" plants are OK to be in the tank during cycle, but there does appear to be conflicting info in this regard.

What I'm going to do with my tank is add in the plants DURING the LAST stage of cycling. Its less stressful on them and acclimated them nicely

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I'd like to start cycling this tank this weekend, so I need to decide on a cycling method & whether or not to start the plants right away....from my VERY rudimentary knowledge, I "think" plants are OK to be in the tank during cycle, but there does appear to be conflicting info in this regard.

Please understand these a my takes on cycling, based on decades of successful fishkeeping experiences and reinforced by much academical learning.
I've gathered that there are currently 5 described methods of cycling.

1. 'Fish-in' cycling.
2. 'Fishless' cycling...no plants, just chemicals.
3. 'Fishless' cycling...with plants and organic materials added.
4. 'Fishless' cycling...with plants and bottled bacteria.
5. 'Fishless' cycling...with plants and old, mature media.

1 is abhorrent and usually involves torturing fish for as long as it takes for the tank to be cycled. Sadly, this method is often used in here, as a means to rescue poor fish, placed in tanks by those who simply want something pretty asap and completely fail to appreciate the complexities involved in successful fishkeeping. Of note, these rescues usually work best when fast-growing plants are added to the tank.

2 appears to be the method preferred by the Admin/Mod team, based on a paper written by a Forum member. This method is well described here and is the one repeatedly promoted when members ask about cycling. An apparent advantage is that it does not use plants, which many find intimidating. It does, however, need the addition of artificial ammonia doses, adhering to a fairly tight schedule, a knowledge of basic mathematics and a lot of patience. Whilst I'm sure it works for many, to me it's far from flawless...as evidenced by the very many who try it and then ask for help in here because, for one reason or another, it hasn't worked.

3 was the method I used back in the day, having subscribed to a West German school of aquascaping, which involved a lot of planting and basic fish food being the organic material necessary to rot and feed whatever beneficial bacteria just happened to be hanging around.

4 and 5 are my preferred methods, simply because I took the time to learn about plants in the same manner I learned about the fish and I have faith in some of the bottled bacteria products, now readily available.

4 was an adaptation of 3, only this time I took advantage of Microbe-Lift bacterial products* for my bacterial growth. Adding plants from the outset allowed them to establish themselves and I have the opportunity to mess about, without disturbing fish. It also helps me determine the quality of the plants and their tolerances to my water.

5 is the method you should be able to use yourself, already having an established tank, with established beneficial bacteria. Again, the waste management abilities of plants are exploited.

My in-Forum Journal describes my setting up of Tanks 1, 2 and 3.
Tank 1: 18 days from start to first fish. Method 4.
Tank 2: 12 days from start to first fish. Method 5.
Tank 3: 48 hours, from start to first fish. Method 5.

*Other bacterial products are available.

 

[Essjay]

based on a paper written by a Forum member

You may notice that the link does include cycling with plants And fish-in cycling for those members who listened to the fish store.



For just one betta, a well planted tank will be able to remove all the ammonia. Just wait until the plants are visibly growing as the last thing you need is to get fish then the plants suddenly die. Bettas like floating plants and those are very good at removing ammonia.
But should you decide to do a fishless cycle with ammonia, 1 ppm is more than enough for a betta.


The trouble with other fish in a 10 gallon is that just about all the fish suitable for that sized tank are small enough for the betta to regard as food. He may not be able to catch them, but they will be stressed from being chased.

 

[Slaphppy7]

You may notice that the link does include cycling with plants And fish-in cycling for those members who listened to the fish store.



For just one betta, a well planted tank will be able to remove all the ammonia. Just wait until the plants are visibly growing as the last thing you need is to get fish then the plants suddenly die. Bettas like floating plants and those are very good at removing ammonia.
But should you decide to do a fishless cycle with ammonia, 1 ppm is more than enough for a betta.


The trouble with other fish in a 10 gallon is that just about all the fish suitable for that sized tank are small enough for the betta to regard as food. He may not be able to catch them, but they will be stressed from being chased.

+1 to the above.

I would just add that bettas are rarely a good choice for a community tank; they do best on their own.

 

[Aged_Cheddar]

You may notice that the link does include cycling with plants And fish-in cycling for those members who listened to the fish store.

The trouble with other fish in a 10 gallon is that just about all the fish suitable for that sized tank are small enough for the betta to regard as food. He may not be able to catch them, but they will be stressed from being chased.

I am absolutely doing a fishless cycle...No fish should have to give his/her short life, so we can have a pretty tank faster...

As far as tank mates...I am so confused, there are articles like This or like This that obviously contradict everything else...Ugggg, the internet, the best AND worst place for all your info LOL!

 

[Rocky998]

I am absolutely doing a fishless cycle...No fish should have to give his/her short life, so we can have a pretty tank faster...

As far as tank mates...I am so confused, there are articles like This or like This that obviously contradict everything else...Ugggg, the internet, the best AND worst place for all your info LOL!

Yah, there are good sites and then wacko sites lol

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I am so confused, there are articles like This or like This that obviously contradict everything else...Ugggg, the internet, the best AND worst place for all your info LOL!

Yup...
Bettas are far enough up the intellectual food chain to actually have personalities and, as a consequence, they can vary and their aggressive tendencies follow a bell-shaped curve, from timid ones at one end and psycho-killer, maim, disfigure monsters at the other...with the bulk somewhere in the middle, where the middle still represents Siamese FIGHTING fish.

Avoid anything with longer fins.
Avoid anything that has colourful markings.
Avoid anything that can be eaten.
Avoid anything else that has to be on its own and is territorial.

I believe that you could take a risk of a Betta in a large tank, with a shoal of large, relatively dull and short-finned tetra or even rasbora...
Oh yes...
Avoid anything fast moving and relatively hyper-active.

...With lots of vegetation, to break up line of sight.

Then you have to consider threats to the Betta, so anything 'nippy' won't do...such as Tetras, etc..