afireinside
A Shrine To Madness
I have to agree there. Those are very, very tasty.
Off topic, sorry, but I love pheasant.
Will You Pay For Higher Standards In Food Production?
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Off topic, sorry, but I love pheasant.
Arfie
Fish Herder
A combination of things really, I'll only eat one if I fancy one, but the nearest KFC or McD's are a 5 mile drive away. I rarely go out in town so I am hardly ever near them. The times I do come into contact with McD in the UK is when my family who live north and south of here use the retail park near here as a meeting place and I meet them there, but I've normally eaten before we meet up.
When we go on holiday my friends always seem to want to go to McDonalds, but I rarely will, not for ethical reasons, but because I don't see the point of being in a new place and eating the same old thing, for the same reason that I don't eat steak and chips. Unless of course the local food is poor, then finding a McDonalds is like striking gold
I know that, but what I'm saying is, you weren't just trying to convince, you were telling them not to. Do you see, the subtle difference? it's why you got the responses that you got, from me and I'd guess from others.
Once I found out about you smoking I had all the ammunition I needed to argue against you in the same manner as you were using. I suspected that like all smokers you'd hate being told how bad smoking is (for you, others, your pocket, the enviroment), just as people don't like being told how bad their diet is, or drinking etc. I know that telling someone to stop will never work, so all I can do is give people the facts and destroy any myths they have, then leave the final descision to them, if they choose to carry on, well I can't force them to stop so I have to leave them to it.
You can lead a horse to water ......
Good debating with you either way, you made me think more thoroughly about certain things (which is good). No hard feelings?
As Andywg said, your heart is definately in the right place, but your approach was just too preachy and that's why I basically mirrored the same style as you.
Of course there's no hard feelings
It's been about the best thread on TFF since General Talk was closed Arfie
OP
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Tokis-Phoenix
^_^
Hm its not that i hate been told how bad smoking is, of course i know how bad it is (one would have to be living under a rock to not know stuff like that), however what disappointed me is that despite you acknowledging that i have a good cause at heart, you used my smoking to undermine that cause (but you were really just trying to highlight the type of approach i was using in debate, yes?).
(btw: We smokers get told how bad smoking is 24/7 in this nanny state society, the thing that tends to irritate a lot of us the most is the Nanny State Police that feel its right to hunt and ostracize us when in reality what we do is completely legal and its the masses of tax that is reaped off products like tobacco that is propping up things like our nations NHS system, when on the other hand we are told that we shouldn't hassle/nanny/hunt or exclude people like the obese, because despite the fact that obesity is crippling the NHS, because they decide to shove food into their mouths instead of smoke fags, that somehow makes them into people that should be victimized rather than hunted etc. BTW, i have nothing against the obese, only the system that makes it socially ok for people to hassle people for one legal habit and not another etc.
Smoking has been banned in public places, its not a threat anymore to innocent peoples lives in the workplace or pubs etc- so leave it at that. The anti-smoking hunt has turned into a cult movement and to be honest its extremely tiring and nanny state. Everybody complains that their rights are being eroded away these days by the PC and health & safety nanny crowds, however its so ironic that its often the people that are now complaining about these things, are the ones that originally gave these groups the power/support to behave the way they currently do and still do when it suits them etc.
So its not a simple case of "smokers hate been told their habit is bad" etc, its simply more of a case of that we're tired of being hunted down, ostracized and used as scape goats etc for something that is apparently perfectly legal and our right to do. Anyways, i'm getting off the beaten track here, so i'll stop my mini-ranting here lol.)
As Andywg said, your heart is definately in the right place, but your approach was just too preachy and that's why I basically mirrored the same style as you.
Of course there's no hard feelings
Arfie
Thats good to hear
, i don't think i ever got around to using general talk when it was still around (i can't even remember if it was still around when i joined the forum), but the beauty of the nature section is that it can be used to discuss and debate a wide variety of interesting and controversial subjects while still keeping within the rules of the forum (as long as the topic is of course related to nature in one way or another), much more interesting debate subjects anyway than what the music, cooking or gardening sections generally allow etc (i like all those subjects too, but sometimes i bore of the "which do you prefer- rock or pop, bacon sandwich or sausage sandwich, pansies or roses etc type of threads which are so numerous in such sections and don't seem to have any particular point to them and are just there for curiosities sake etc). Then again i guess if you put you mind to it, there's always a way to debate something interesting and passionate in any of those sections.Anyhoo, i'm waffling on too much right now, so i'll leave it at there
.Anyways i agree my approach would probably be more effective if i was less "preachy" so i will try and work on that.
But, i have mused over one more point relating to the topic that i have only just thought of which i would like to add here;
Numerous people here have raised the point that they have children to feed and that they feed their kids factory range chicken products instead of free range ones because of the expenses involved in free range products etc. Some people have even suggested that they are giving their children a better quality of life by allowing them to eat cheap meat all the time.
But i wonder, how many of these parents have actually told their kids where these products really come from and the manner of which they are produced? I'm sure plenty of kids like eating lots of meat and eggs and stuff, however how do you think your children would feel about eating factory range chicken if they were shown pictures of factory chickens (like the such pictures i have posted in this thread) and told the processes of farming chickens in this way? Do you think your kids would still want to eat such products? What if you children asked you something like "Mommy/Daddy, you said it was wrong to be cruel to animals or support animal cruelty, so is it ok to eat factory chickens? They don't look very happy"- as a parent, what would you teach your kids about this?
Do you think there is any benefit in not properly educating children about where food comes from and how it is produced? As a parent, have you educated your children at all on matters like this to any decent extent?
I wonder how many parents who give their kids factory chicken products have actually told their children anything about how animals are really farmed. If your kids didn't want to eat such products after finding out more about them, as a parent would you still find as much justification to buy such products?
In a day and age where increasingly there are kids who think that milk comes from a carton, i think its very important to educate kids about where their food comes from and how it is produced- food ignorance/lack of food awareness is the cause or major contributing factor to numerous problems in society.
Whilst this is off topic, I can't resist laughing about a few things here (don't take this the wrong way):
This is ironic, tobacco taxes is propping up the NHS however it is smoking related diseases that are pulling it back down again.
Ouch.
Maybe you should take more notice of something you have already said:
I don't really have an issue with what you said I just find it amusing.
What difference does it make if he's eating free range or battery chicken as to how long it takes to cook/prepare?
This is ironic, tobacco taxes is propping up the NHS however it is smoking related diseases that are pulling it back down again.
Ouch.
Maybe you should take more notice of something you have already said:
I don't really have an issue with what you said I just find it amusing.
What difference does it make if he's eating free range or battery chicken as to how long it takes to cook/prepare?
im guessing that they use microwave meals or something similar? i've never seen a free range "ready meal" product.
Well as said no one has to eat meat every day, and if you have no time to cook anything but ready meals for every day of the week then it's a bit worrying. There probably are free range products out there that are quick to prepare and cook even if they aren't complete "ready meals", but I don't know I don't eat meat.
OP
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Tokis-Phoenix
^_^
The fact is that there is more than enough tax gained from tobacco to treat tobacco related illnesses, so its not smoking related diseases that are pulling the NHS down;
"It is true that NHS costs are lower than tobacco tax revenues. Tobacco taxation amounts to £10.5 billion per year whereas a figure for NHS spending on tobacco related disease is £1.7 billion. But so what? The comparison is a false one. Tobacco tax is not and never has been a down payment on the cost dealing with ill health caused by smoking.
The second part of the quote is there to ensure I don’t mis-represent the organisation by just snipping out the first part which for the purposes of this argument is the important one. Look at the first part - do the math. 10.5B - 1.7B = 8.8B in NHS revenue spent on disease that is not smoking related. I believe there are 29.4M tax-payers in the UK. 8.8B / 29.4M is about £300-00 per person on the UK that must be found to continue treating these diseases. If we say an average wage is £30,000 (for simplicities sake) this is a 1% rise in income tax.";
http
/www.accidental-light.com/?p=207 The fact of the matter is that smoking pays for itself via tax when it comes to health problems, and that the extra tax not spent on treating smoking related diseases is spent on other general area's in the NHS.
Of course not all obese people are the same, however the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of cases of obesity are caused by over-eating/consuming more calories than the body burns. Besides, i was merely trying to emphasize the point in the post- which is about the nanny state system etc.
I agree- and besides, pre-made meals almost always cost more than buying the raw ingredients if we are talking about the quantities of food you get for your money.
afireinside
A Shrine To Madness
Actually, hate to break it to you, but this kid pretty much needs to eat meat every day.
<a href="http/www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21246628/" target="_blank">http/www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21246628/</a>
Poor guy.
Toxis - I'll stop eating KFC the day you are officially smoke free.
<a href="http
/www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21246628/" target="_blank">http/www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21246628/</a>Poor guy.
Toxis - I'll stop eating KFC the day you are officially smoke free.
OP
OP
Tokis-Phoenix
^_^
Actually, hate to break it to you, but this kid pretty much needs to eat meat every day.
<a href="http
Poor guy.
Toxis - I'll stop eating KFC the day you are officially smoke free.
That sucks that the kid can only eat chicken, tuna, carrots, potato's and grapes- still though, i don't see the point in posting this? Its not like he has to eat battery meat or something as a part of his diet.
Also, with the smoking thing, why should i have to give up smoking for your morals/ethics to improve? Morality/Ethics should come from within. And how would you know anyway if i was telling the truth? There would be nothing to stop me from lying to you. IMHO, at the end of the day the choice to not eat battery products should come from within; if you really care about animals like chickens then you should be capable of making the right choice on your own- you shouldn't need to rely on me so that you can make the better choice.
BecciMac1987
Fishaholic
Mmmmmmmm still fancying a maccy D's. If only my daughter wasnt in bed Id be off to the drive through...
Well i stopped smoking 2 years ago will you now stop eating KFC. weak
And the weakest argument of the thread award goes to...
The fact that that guy made the news just shows how extremely rare his case is, you are infact proving that apart from him we don't need to eat meat every day.
No one cared that you said that the last time.
Actually, hate to break it to you, but this kid pretty much needs to eat meat every day.
<a href="http
Poor guy.
Toxis - I'll stop eating KFC the day you are officially smoke free.
The fact that that guy made the news just shows how extremely rare his case is, you are infact proving that apart from him we don't need to eat meat every day.
No one cared that you said that the last time.
BecciMac1987
Fishaholic
LOL- just humouring the topic. Its all based on fact AND opinion, and as long as we are all human beings, we will all have our own OPINION on whats right and wrong, thus making it pointless to debate on this. Give us all facts, you all have facts, but its opinion that matters.
OP
OP
Tokis-Phoenix
^_^
No, its pointless for you to post on the this debate because all you are doing is clogging up the thread with your pointless posts. Its so ironic that the only person (you) who thinks this thread is pointless is also the person who has made the most pointless unproductive posts in the whole of this thread.
In order to have a successful argument at least elaborate on why you have that opinion. So you think that the taste of McD's food is so good that it outweighs how you are eating meat of the lowest standard that has been raised with no room to move in a dirty environment where the animal has no quality of life, and has been pumped full of hormones and antibiotics? Do you hold no respect for animals at all that even though it has been killed for you to eat you would not at least eat one that was raised properly and therefore fund a better cause?
Wouldn't you rather just make a Mcwhatever at home where you actually know what's in it and can make it using free range products, healthier and more wholesome products instead of the crap they put in them at McDs? As well as saving the money that they take to prepare and package it for you?
Haha, if we lived by that theory then discussion and debate on any issue would be pointless. Do you not have a strong opinion on anything so much that you will argue for such a cause? I seriously hope you don't actually believe in what you just said, or at least I hope you don't apply it to everyday life.
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