Why Did These 3 Fish Die?

[Meeresstille]

This is just too weird, and I hope someone can help us find an answer.
 
Betta fish # 1
We've set up a 5 gallon tank, used cycled media from the big tank to get a head start on the cycling, Aqua Plus used for dechlorinator. Got a Betta from a LFS with a good reputation.
Within hours the fish slowed down, started hiding, we chalked it off to the fish feeling stressed having moved from a little cup to a 5 gallon tank...
on day 2 or 3 the fish had an intestinal prolapse and was brought back to the store. Speculation was that he had parasites, another Betta was given in exchange.
 
Betta fish # 2
Tank was cleaned, media thrown out, new cycled media put in, a nerite snail was added, and some plants for the Betta to hide in. Switched from Aqua Plus to Prime to dechlorinate. Everything was fine for one whole day. Then this Betta too started hiding, developed cloudy eye and next morning he was dead in the tank. Dead fish was brought back to the store, the possibility of bad shipment was discussed, another Betta was given in exchange.
 
Betta fish # 3
Tank was cleaned with salt and with vinegar, everything was boiled, (even boiling water poured into the tank (yikes, thank goodness the seals held and the glass did not break) media thrown out, again more cycled media pinched off the main tank, the plants were put in a bucket, new plants added to the tank. Again it started with fish hiding, clamped fins, this one developed dropsy, Nerite snail removed, Epsom Salt was added, API General Cure was bought and used in case the problem were parasites, API Triple Sulfa was bought and used in case it was a Bacterial infection. The Betta first started showing signs of getting better, but one day he just could not fight anymore. The sypmtoms of dropsy got worse and Betta was euthanized.
 
Betta fish # 4
A brand new tank was bought, a kit that included the filter and a heater, nothing from the previous tank was being used, bare bottom tank, not even cycled media was added. Another Betta was bought, and within hours of adding him his eyes also started getting cloudy, slime coat was sloughing off (one of the other Bettas too had this happen, not sure which one). There is no way anything had cross-contaminated this tank, and on a hunch decided to add 1 tsp of salt per gallon. Knowing that nothing on the decor or the plants could have been the cause of any of it, the tank was made more comfortable for the Betta, by adding the wood and some plants (they are showing some signs of damage from the medicated water they were sitting in, but oh well, they were rinsed off before adding them to the tank! Over night the Betta has already started to look better. His eyes are clearing again. He is acting OK, but there still are some remnants of slime coat hanging off.
 
What is going on? Why is this happening? Is there something wrong with the Bettas? I just can't see where we went wrong? They were acclimated slowly by floating the bag in the water, water being removed from the bag, and tank water being added, over a period of an hour. Are there medications in the little cups to keep the Bettas looking well, but once they are going into unmedicated water they get ill?
 
Tap water shows no signs of Ammonia, but once treated with Prime it shows Ammonia of .6! Good news is that the pH is sitting at 6, so there is very, very little of actual harmful ammonia in the water. Water changes were done whenever any of the fish showed signs of something being wrong. 
Used filter media has since been added to the filter to help eat up the Ammonia/Ammonium, as well as some crushed coral which has brought the pH up to 6.5. The pH at the LFS is at 7. Nitrates are already showing at 5 in the tank. 
 
Only one of the Bettas ever accepted any food. New Life Spectrum Betta pellets and frozen blood worms, but not much. Uneaten foods were removed from tank!
 
Sorry for the long post, I really hope someone can help us.
 
This is Betta # 4
 

 
 

 

[mark4785]

What do you mean by the water shows no signs of ammonia? You ideally need to test for Total Ammonia using an API master test kit and get a result of 0 ppm. Anything over 0.05 ppm in total ammonia can disrupt a fishes slime coat, skin, gills, eyes and fins.
 
A reading of 0.6 ppm of ammonia is really high and will go higher quite quickly due to the small body of water that the fish is in. The relative contribution of the toxic free form of total ammonia increases in higher temperature water so this is something to consider in addition to how the pH influences ammonia toxicity.
 

• I would recommend doing as many 90% water changes as you can until all traces of ammonia are gone.
• You need to ensure that the tank is fully cycled before placing the fish into the tank; if you are not sure if it's cycled I would continue completing the 90% water changes as and when necessary.
• You may wish to consider adding zeolite into your filter system alongside the mature filter media as the latter clearly isn't neutralising enough ammonia by itself. Zeolite uptakes ammonia ions and exchanges them for sodium ions. Ensure your aquarium water is 100% free of sodium/salt when using zeolite as the presence of sodium/salt causes zeolite to absorb the said sodium/salt and RELEASE any stored ammonia into the water.

 
In answer to the question in your title, I would suggest that the presence of ammonia in your water has upset the skin and eyes of the previous fish that you have had which will have resulted in bacteria getting into the fish and overwhelming it. Cloudy eyes, lack of appetite, redness (in more serious cases, fin rot) and change of colour to the skin (in general) are symptoms of the skin responded to ammonia / nitrite.

 

[Meeresstille]

Thanks for your reply Mark. What you're saying would make perfect sense, if in fact the ammonia in the tank were at a toxic level. 
 
We are using the Nutrafin liquid test kit. It comes with a number chart, where you can see how much actual ammonia is in the tank. So, using the Nutrafin liquid test kit, we tested our water, I tested mine here, and my son (an adult) tested his water at his house (that's the location where the fish is). We live in a "Mega-city" where our water is treated the same but by two different treatment plants.
 
When we test the tap-water, ammonia is 0, but as soon as we treat it with Prime, ammonia reads 0.6! This reading is not even on the chart in consideration of the pH level of the water. It states the levels of un-ionized ammonia being 0.00 for even higher readings such as ours....I would need to have a pH of 7.2, and an ammonia test reading of 7.3 to get at a level of un-ionized ammonia of 0.06...(not that I'd ever let it get that high!!!!)
 
What won't work is doing water changes, since the levels can only go as low as your tap water. So, letting it stay in the tank will actually reduce it, since the cycled media is already converting it.
My son also has a 15 gallon tank in which are one honey gourami and 6 Harlequin Rasboras. These are doing quite well, having been set up in the same matter like the Betta tank, about a month ago.
 
My fish too, are getting water changes where I am adding tap-water treated with Prime, where then the ammonia test shows an ammonia level of 0.6 (un-ionized ammonia 0.00)! My fish do not get cloudy eye, even when I've set up a 5 gallon tank from scratch back in March, with 100% of Prime treated water. Why does the same procedure work here, but not on the other side of the city?
 
At first I had suspected the glossy river rocks, even though they had been washed well (I was present at the initial set-up of the tank), they were since then boiled and even baked in the oven, but after using a bare bottom tank and all new equipment it makes sense to me, that it must have something to do with the water. For a second I thought you must be right with the ammonia, but if I can't reproduce the same outcome here I'm thinking maybe something else is in the water?
 
There is conflicting information online whether the city is using just chlorine or chloramine. I'm guessing it must be chloramine, that as soon as Prime is added the ammonia is freed and is then able to be tested for in the test kit?! 
 
I'm sorry if I'm rambling, it has been a long 2 1/2 weeks treating different bettas, and trying to figure out what could be causing this...ugh, it's not only frustrating for me trying to help my son, it is so very sad, seeing his devastation after their deaths. He already said, that if this does not work, that he will let me set it up here, and when everything is working well, he will transfer the tank to his house.  

 

[mark4785]

What won't work is doing water changes, since the levels can only go as low as your tap water. So, letting it stay in the tank will actually reduce it, since the cycled media is already converting it.
My son also has a 15 gallon tank in which are one honey gourami and 6 Harlequin Rasboras. These are doing quite well, having been set up in the same matter like the Betta tank, about a month ago.
 

 
Let me know if I've misunderstood, but in your initial post, did you say that your tap water has an ammonia level of 0 ppm only until you treat it with Prime? It seems to me that whatever is in the prime is interfering with your test kit or bringing about an actual ammonia increase. I've just looked at the Seachem website and it would appear that Prime is some sort of premium water conditioner in that it removes "chlorine, chloramine and ammonia". There is a similar all-rounded conditioner here in the UK called WaterLife BacterLife (very expensive) which claims to neutralise ammonia and nitrite and also makes the claim that it will not "cause any temporary dangerous increases in the ammonia" concentration when it is put into a body of water (see this link to see the quote I've taken: http/www.waterlife.co.uk/waterlife/bacterlife.htm ).
 
As Prime does NOT make any assurances that ammonia levels will not increase after the product is used, I would suggest that the thing that you think is helping you is actually causing all of your problems in terms of total ammonia increases (to the 0.6 ppm mark that you've mentioned).
 
If your tap water has 0 ppm of ammonia, switch to a 'normal' water conditioner that just aims to remove chlorine and chloramine as the ammonia-removers are expensive, can cause more problems for you and they are taking the work away from the nitrobacter and nitrosomonas filtration bacteria (on your filter sponges) which, when they develop enough, can remove ammonia for free!
 
I hope I've been of some use. Please get back to me if I've misunderstood anything!

 

[Meeresstille]

It is the Seachem Prime we are using, it states "concentrated conditioner for marine and freshwater, removes chlorine and chloramine, detoxifies ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, provides slime coat".
 
With the first Betta we did use Aqua Plus, which is poorer in quality, and this fish suffered the intestinal prolapse...
 
As I understand the effects of Prime does wear off and the detoxified Ammonia can convert back into the toxic form, but with the filter showing signs of becoming cycled (Ammonia reduced from 0.6 to 0.3, Nitrate being present) and the low pH I don't think that it is the ammonia.
 
I am wondering though is, the pH of the water in the store being 7 is the acclimation of one hour not enough, could that be causing the shedding of the slime coat, and cloudy eye?

 

[mark4785]

It is the Seachem Prime we are using, it states "concentrated conditioner for marine and freshwater, removes chlorine and chloramine, detoxifies ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, provides slime coat".
 
With the first Betta we did use Aqua Plus, which is poorer in quality, and this fish suffered the intestinal prolapse...
 
As I understand the effects of Prime does wear off and the detoxified Ammonia can convert back into the toxic form, but with the filter showing signs of becoming cycled (Ammonia reduced from 0.6 to 0.3, Nitrate being present) and the low pH I don't think that it is the ammonia.
 
I am wondering though is, the pH of the water in the store being 7 is the acclimation of one hour not enough, could that be causing the shedding of the slime coat, and cloudy eye?

 
I would only worry if you had said to me that you placed the fish in your aquarium water straight away (with a pH of 6) after it being used to a pH of 7.0 in the store aquarium. One hour is certainly ample time for a fish to adjust from one pH to another and acclimatise to a changed temperature. Are you adding your aquarium water gradually?
 
I have done a quick search for Betta care sheets and most state that the fish likes a neutral pH (around 7.0) with 6.5 being the lowest. This may be something for you to consider given that your pH is 6.0.
 
I've never had any experience of pH acidosis (this is where a pH is simply too low for a particular species of fish) but I can tell you that pH alkalosis results in fish rubbing themselves, flicking and jumping out of the water. 

 

[Meeresstille]

Thank you for hanging in there with me Mark!
Yes, the water here sucks for that. In my tanks I have added substrate that helps with the pH and the buffering of the pH. I gave my son some of the crushed coral that I used to use in my filters after having had some fish deaths due to a severe pH drop. The pH in the tank has since gone up to 6.5. 
 
I've spend some more time reading up on the fish's slime coat. So, the low pH could have stimulated the fish to produce more slime in order to protect itself. The acidity of the water making him shed it, which left him vulnerable to infections. That could explain why all 4 fish showed similar symptoms, yet none died of the same thing.
 
We still are hoping to have a chance with this 4th Betta. 

 

[mark4785]

Thank you for hanging in there with me Mark!
Yes, the water here sucks for that. In my tanks I have added substrate that helps with the pH and the buffering of the pH. I gave my son some of the crushed coral that I used to use in my filters after having had some fish deaths due to a severe pH drop. The pH in the tank has since gone up to 6.5. 
 
I've spend some more time reading up on the fish's slime coat. So, the low pH could have stimulated the fish to produce more slime in order to protect itself. The acidity of the water making him shed it, which left him vulnerable to infections. That could explain why all 4 fish showed similar symptoms, yet none died of the same thing.
 
We still are hoping to have a chance with this 4th Betta. 

 
I hadn't realised that your pH was so turbulent. A pH crash comes about if you have a low carbonate hardness (kH) concentration in your water as the kH value is a measure of the concentration of positively and negatively charged ions which are released to either top-up or lower the pH in response to a pH change having occurred (i.e. as Ammonia oxidises into nitrite, the pH rises, so the kH system will release negatively charged ions to bring the pH back to where it should be) . A kH level of 4dH is enough to stop pH swings and crashes providing you take steps to maintain it at that level, such as continually adding fresh crushed coral (something you're already doing 

 ).
 
One thing to note is that a low kH causes rapid pH swings, not necessarily crashes. The act of the pH swinging is no good for the proper functioning of your filter bacteria as it relies on a consistently neutral to slightly alkaline pH level in order to properly convert ammonia and nitrite into less toxic compounds. The filtration bacteria can get used to an acid pH level providing its not fluctuating.
 
I feel that the fish losses you are experiencing will be down to stressful pH swings and possibly a stall to your nitrogen cycle. I recommend you get ahold of a kH testing kit (the best and most accurate kH kit is produced by API) and routinely check that your kH is at least 4dH.
 
So in summary:
 

• You will have a low kH level which is causing pH crashes / swings. This can kill fish and is more lethal than high ammonia/nitrite readings.
• Obtain an API kH testing kit and ascertain what your aquariums KH level is.
• Keep using the API kH testing kit until it shows you that the quantity of crushed corals (or other medium) you are using is increasing the kH to at least 4dH. Only gradually increase the kH level to avoid stressing the fish and filtration bacteria.
• As you are conditioning your aquarium water with crushed coral to higher your kH and keep your pH stable, be sure to keep your water changes SMALL as your tap water will have wholly different KH and PH concentrations.

Edit: I think Betta 2 and 3 died of a pH crash. I think the first died of what you have already identified.

 

[Meeresstille]

Betta # 4 died too!

 

[Meeresstille]

I think my son is going to give it one more try, Mark. He will first try to get the pH more stable as you suggested. Thank you so much for your time and your help.

 

[mark4785]

I think my son is going to give it one more try, Mark. He will first try to get the pH more stable as you suggested. Thank you so much for your time and your help.

 
No problem. I would aim to ensure that the pH is stable before purchasing anymore fish so as to avoid more fish deaths.

 

[Meeresstille]

Yes, Mark, that's the plan, well something like that. What we did was I got a Betta from a different LFS, and set up a tank in my home. The pH of the betta's water was very close to my pH (mine is 6.5, the water in the bag was maybe 6.7), I still took my time acclimating him, giving him a little over an hour floating the bag with intervals of adding water from the tank.
 
The Betta will stay here with me until my son has his tank's pH stabilized, he then will move the Betta to his house, and we'll aim to bring most of the water of the 5 gallon along to put into the 8.5 gallon, so the Betta will be in water very close to his usual parameters.
 
The Betta has now been with me for almost 8 hours, he is active, he seems happy exploring his new environment, his eyes are clear, which was one of the first signs in the other Bettas that something was wrong...
 
This is the Betta and his temporary home (note: a heater and filter will arrive in about an hour):
 

 

 

[brittgs]

He is very handsome. I hope he does well as you solve the pH issues.

 

[Meeresstille]

Thank you brittgs. We actually just figured out this evening that my son's pH test in his Nutrafin test kit (expiry date 2017) is not working correctly. It is off about 0.5 of the reading that my test kit shows.
 
I just have to shake my head though! It is astounding, that this whole process of setting up a Betta tank for my son has been met with one obstacle after another. At one time a heater actually exploded in the tank! We had bought the heater used, because the heater that we had with the tank initially would only warm the water to about 76 F. Things seem OK now, though. The temperature is at 80 F, the filter is already converting the ammonia, the Betta has eaten some pellets this evening, he is showing already more colours than before....things are looking up!