Why Are All The Fish Dying?

[Phil2501]

Ive got a 4ft aquarium, I started off with 2 silver sharks, a very small rainbow shark, a blue dollar, 2 neon tetra's, 3 black tetra's, 2 red tetra's, an upside down catfish, a plec, a clown loach & 3 serpia tetra's.

I bought a male siamese fighter from p@h last tuesday, the day after I bought a female fighter, a pegasus & 2 rummy nose tetra's.

On thursday I found the male siamese & a rummy nose dead, went back to the shop, they tested the water & said it was fine so Instead of getting another male siamese we got 2 more serpia tetra's & 2 odesa barbs.

Friday morning we found 1 silver shark, a serpia tetra & a neon tetra dead? this morning Ive found one of the odesa barbs dead? why are they all dying?

 

[Corleone]

Was the tank cycled? If so, how, and how long did it take?
What were your water stats? Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate?

Many shops will tell you the water's fine even if it's toxic. If you must have them test it, get them to give you the numbers. Getting your own kit (liquid test like the API master kit) is highly recommended since you can track trends better.

Since what's happening to you is pretty common with new members, I'm going to guess new tank syndrome, caused by ammonia in an uncycled tank, though with those tankmates, the siamese fighter could well have been killed, I doubt many of the others were.

Edit: Some links you may want to read up on:
Having the store test your water:
http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...-Water-Testing/
What is cycling (hint: probably not what the store tells you)?
http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...eady-have-fish/

 

[samh12]

you could be adding to many fish at once.
you could be putting to much food in (i did that for the first 2 weeks)
or the tank has not cycled.

 

[Phil2501]

how do mean by Cycled? we bought the tank with fish already with it & just added those I mentions in OP.
I dont know the numbers, the guy in the shop had a colour chart, he mixed our water with some chemicals then compared the colours & said they were fine?

ETA: oh now I see, can I cycle the tank now or is too late as the fish are already init? is there anything I can get to add to the water to make it better?

 

[samh12]

Yes there is most fish shops sell ro water.
This is pure water. Do a few water changes with that water and it should be better.
or you can buy a Ro water system from <a href="http/bosslighting.co.uk/acatalog/reverse...is_systems.html" target="_blank">http/bosslighting.co.uk/acatalog/reverse...is_systems.html</a>" target="_blank"><a href="http/bosslighting.co.uk/acatalog/reverse...is_systems.html" target="_blank">http/bosslighting.co.uk/acatalog/reverse...is_systems.html</a></a> for around £70. i have the "4 stage - 75gpd Reverse Osmosis Water Filter" from there website and its brill. i run 3 tanks off of it, a 180Ltr Jewel, a 50Ltr Rena Biocube and a 50Ltr Ocra Nano Reef

 

[OldMan47]

The only thing that you can add to the water that might speed things up a bit is live bacteria for your filter. If someone grabs a bottle off the shelf to give you, you can politely thank them but no thanks. Anything sitting on the shelf with no water circulation, no added oxygen and no ammonia for food is dead.
RO is not really needed in a new tank that you are trying to cycle with fish in. What is absolutely esssential is lots of big water changes with dechlorinated water.
Another essential is your own testing kit, I prefer the API master kit but any liquid type test kit will work for you. Whenever the ammonia or the nitrite get as high as 0.25 ppm, that's 25mg/litre, it's time for a large water changhe of as much as half the tank water. If you can catch the rise early enough you can stay away from 0.25 ppm with a 25% change. The first few weeks of a fish-in cycle, these water changes can easily need to be done daily so don't be surprised if you do a water change and your test the next day shows the water is not good enough. It's the reason we all recommend fishless cycling if people ask the question soon enough.
For details on how to do it, please have a read here. http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...eady-have-fish/

 

[Phil2501]

Just found a black tetra dead....

Its not a new new tank set up, its been running for a few months? Ive just had a close look at the clown loach whilst it was sleeping, half its tail fins are missing? have I got any fin nippers in the tank that could be killing them? I have stayed away from tiger barbs as the are the only ones I know of that are fin nippers?

 

[Corleone]

We'll need water stats to tell much more. How was the filter moved when you brought the tank in? How long have you had it set up? How long was it stable after being moved before you added fish, and how much later before you started having deaths? What's the full stocking list and tank volume?

Clown loaches aren't particular victims of fin nipping. If he's missing a considerable amount of fin, I'd look up finrot and compare the symptoms - infections commonly follow alongside ammonia problems.

 

[Sterbai]

The only thing that you can add to the water that might speed things up a bit is live bacteria for your filter. If someone grabs a bottle off the shelf to give you, you can politely thank them but no thanks. Anything sitting on the shelf with no water circulation, no added oxygen and no ammonia for food is dead.

Not true, read up on the current contents found in the majority of these bateria cycling products, they don't require cooling in the shop as the bacteria are kept in a suspended spore state until added to the aquarium. By keeping the bacteria in a spore state, the temperature of the bottle hardly matters and it can even be frozen or heated to quite high temperatures without ill effects. This also allows them to have a much longer shelf-life of around 4 years. They have been around since the 70's but recently (last 10 years or so) advancements in identifying the bacteria species has allowed them to actually use the correct type of bacteria found in the aquarium (before they were using Nitrosomonas europaea and Nitrobacter winogradskyi or closelyrelated species from basically garden soil!). Now they are using Nitrosospira and Nitrospiraor closely related species.

Infact the original Aquarium cycling products only benefited the aquarium due to the food they contained for the bacteria in the bottle which soon died after adding them the tank. The aquatic nitrifying bacteria then used this food which caused them to grow in great numbers and fully cycling the tank.

So they do help if you do your research and pick up the right bottle.

 

[Phil2501]

We'll need water stats to tell much more. How was the filter moved when you brought the tank in? How long have you had it set up? How long was it stable after being moved before you added fish, and how much later before you started having deaths? What's the full stocking list and tank volume?

I can give you stats til Ive purchased a tester kit?

Its been set up about two months roughly, the first fish to die were the male Siamese fighter & a rummy nose tetra, the fighter was purchased last tuesday (8th/7), the rummy nose on wednesday (9th/7) & they died on the thursday.

The tank is 4ft long, 1ft wide & 1.5ft deep/high
current fish include - 1 Silver shark, 1 Rainbow Shark, 1 Blue Dollar, 1 Clown Loach, 1 Upside Down Catfish, 1 Plec, 1 Female siamese fighter, 1 Odessa Barb, 1 Rummy Nose Tetra, 1 Black Tetra, 1 Neon Tetra, 1 Pegasus, 3 Red Tetra (sry got numbers wrong in OP), 4 Serpia Tetra.

so all in all 19 fish? theyre all young though the biggest is the Dollar.

 

[rabbut]

Most "bacteria in the bottle" products don't work. If you, Sterbia, belive they do, I surgest it is you whom needs to research the bottle contents, not us. Most experienced members on here, myself included, have used them, found them to not work and then researched why, finding out within a few minuites

There are exceptions; Nitrospira and bactinnetes, both of which need constant refrigeration to work, and even then have short shelf lifes and can only boast 50% success rates realistically

Phil, can you give us;
water stats in numbers
details of how the tank was moved
ASAP

Stocking is a mass, I'm afraid, so I'll give this attention for you.

1 Silver shark, grows to over 3foot (I have seen them at 2 and a half...), requiring a minimum group of 6
1 Rainbow Shark, grows to 6 inch, semi-agressive
1 Blue Dollar, Possibly a died silver dollar? If so, these grow to medium dinnerplate size, require a group of 6 and have a reputation for decimating plants
1 Clown Loach, grow to a foot and need a group of 6
1 Upside Down Catfish, Is this a true upsidedown catfish, or a look-alike? Lookalikes can eat small fish, though the true one is usualy well behaved
1 Plec, if it is a common plec, it will grow to 1-1.5 feet in length
1 Female siamese fighter, to 3 inches, good community fish
1 Odessa Barb, upto 3 inches I belive, need a group of 4
1 Rummy Nose Tetra, upto 2 inches, need 4 minimum
1 Black Tetra, same as rummynose
1 Neon Tetra, same as rummynose
1 Pegasus, upto 18inches I belive, will eat small fish (neons, rummyt nose e.t.c, you get my drift)
3 Red Tetra, These could be anything realy, can you post a pic?
4 Serpia Tetra. very agressive IME, and may have killed your fighter...

The tank is very over stocked. I'd get rid of the following fish;
pangasius, serpia, plec, clown loach, blue dollar and the silver shark, as the tank isn't big enough for them, or they have a very bad atitude to the other fish when mature

This tank is 45 USG, so you want to aim of 45inches of adult lenght fish in there

With the remaining fish after the stocking alterations, you would have 18 inches of fish excluding the red tetra. I'd have to swapped fish part exchanged for another 3 true upside down cats, 3 odessa barbs, 3 rummy nose, 3 blacj tetra and 3 black neon tetras. This brings you to 63 inches of adult lenght fish. It's still a heavy stocking, but it is manageable

RO used neat will kill your fish, so please don't use it alone if you do use it. If you choose to use it, you need to mix it with tap water or add mineral retopic to it. Its a lot of faffing, and TBH I don't think you have an issue with your tap water and thus IMO it won't be worth it

HTH
Rabbut

 

[Phil2501]

Most "bacteria in the bottle" products don't work. If you, Sterbia, belive they do, I surgest it is you whom needs to research the bottle contents, not us. Most experienced members on here, myself included, have used them, found them to not work and then researched why, finding out within a few minuites

There are exceptions; Nitrospira and bactinnetes, both of which need constant refrigeration to work, and even then have short shelf lifes and can only boast 50% success rates realistically

Phil, can you give us;
water stats in numbers
details of how the tank was moved
ASAP

Stocking is a mass, I'm afraid, so I'll give this attention for you.

1 Silver shark, grows to over 3foot (I have seen them at 2 and a half...), requiring a minimum group of 6
1 Rainbow Shark, grows to 6 inch, semi-agressive
1 Blue Dollar, Possibly a died silver dollar? If so, these grow to medium dinnerplate size, require a group of 6 and have a reputation for decimating plants
1 Clown Loach, grow to a foot and need a group of 6
1 Upside Down Catfish, Is this a true upsidedown catfish, or a look-alike? Lookalikes can eat small fish, though the true one is usualy well behaved
1 Plec, if it is a common plec, it will grow to 1-1.5 feet in length
1 Female siamese fighter, to 3 inches, good community fish
1 Odessa Barb, upto 3 inches I belive, need a group of 4
1 Rummy Nose Tetra, upto 2 inches, need 4 minimum
1 Black Tetra, same as rummynose
1 Neon Tetra, same as rummynose
1 Pegasus, upto 18inches I belive, will eat small fish (neons, rummyt nose e.t.c, you get my drift)
3 Red Tetra, These could be anything realy, can you post a pic?
4 Serpia Tetra. very agressive IME, and may have killed your fighter...

The tank is very over stocked. I'd get rid of the following fish;
pangasius, serpia, plec, clown loach, blue dollar and the silver shark, as the tank isn't big enough for them, or they have a very bad atitude to the other fish when mature

This tank is 45 USG, so you want to aim of 45inches of adult lenght fish in there

With the remaining fish after the stocking alterations, you would have 18 inches of fish excluding the red tetra. I'd have to swapped fish part exchanged for another 3 true upside down cats, 3 odessa barbs, 3 rummy nose, 3 blacj tetra and 3 black neon tetras. This brings you to 63 inches of adult lenght fish. It's still a heavy stocking, but it is manageable

RO used neat will kill your fish, so please don't use it alone if you do use it. If you choose to use it, you need to mix it with tap water or add mineral retopic to it. Its a lot of faffing, and TBH I don't think you have an issue with your tap water and thus IMO it won't be worth it

HTH
Rabbut

The red tetra's are Glow (something) neons, theyre black with a red stripe down their side. we have managed to get hold of a testing kit so will give details when Ive tested water. The Female Siamese is now dead??? no more have died since.

 

[locust267]

There could be a possiblilty that one of the new fish bought in an infection of some sort?

Have any of them had any weird lumps or colour changes etc? Were there any dead fish in the tank you bought any from?

I also have to agree that the tank is over stocked, get rid of the ones mentioned and add to the schoals of the others as if they aren't in a big enough group that will also cause stress and eventually death - Although this is highly unlikely the cause of so many deaths in such a short period.

My money is on poor water conditions i.e high ammonia or nitrite through over stocking.

Good luck

 

[tenohfive]

It seems most likely that at some point in moving the tank to its new home somethings gone wrong, or the filters been removed from the water or similar which has caused the tank to recycle.

Post up your stats when you have them and people on here will give you advice. Theres some iffy advice mentioned (theres nothing to suggest RO water is necessary, and nothing to suggest bacteria in a bottle are effective) so pay more attention to Rabbuts and Miss Wiggles opinions(or any of the moderators and you won't go wrong.

If you haven't already, pick up some dechlorinator - every fish shop will sell at least 3 different brands versions. This makes tap water safe, and you'll need that - because if your tank has gone into a mini cycle, you'll be needing to do daily big water changes to get rid of any ammonia that shows up.

And I second Rabbuts advice with regards to stocking - get rid of as many fish to your local fish shop as you can. This will reduce the amount of ammonia being produced which will make your life easier if it is a mini cycle (you won't have to do as many water changes) and once things have settled down, you aren't getting any more losses and the tank has cycled you can think about what to add next.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Yes there is most fish shops sell ro water.
This is pure water. Do a few water changes with that water and it should be better.
or you can buy a Ro water system from <a href="http/bosslighting.co.uk/acatalog/reverse...is_systems.html" target="_blank">http/bosslighting.co.uk/acatalog/reverse...is_systems.html</a>" target="_blank"><a href="http/bosslighting.co.uk/acatalog/reverse...is_systems.html" target="_blank">http/bosslighting.co.uk/acatalog/reverse...is_systems.html</a></a> for around £70. i have the "4 stage - 75gpd Reverse Osmosis Water Filter" from there website and its brill. i run 3 tanks off of it, a 180Ltr Jewel, a 50Ltr Rena Biocube and a 50Ltr Ocra Nano Reef

RO won't help at all

Just as a quick explanation

RO water is water which has been filtered using a Reverse Osmosis water, this takes everything out of it to make it as close to pure H2O as you are likley to get. For extra delicate fish or set up's such as marine tanks or discus people will sometimes use RO water, in every case it should have something added to it to make it safe for the fish. Fish absorb vitamins and mierals through their scales from the water around them, if you put them in pure RO water you are basically depriving them of all the minerals etc that they need. As you can imagine this is not a bright idea.

I too suspect poor water either because the tank is cycling following the move or because it is overstocked and the filter can't cope with it (when we get your test results we can confirm/deny this). In either of these cases the problem would be that the fish are producing more waste than the filter can clean up, doing a water change will remove some of the waste in the water and add clean water back in, so it dilutes the toxins and improves things for the fish, but the fish aren't just gonna stop making waste all of a sudden so the water will become polluted again, this is why if you have poor water you need to keep doing large daily water changes to maintain a sensible level of toxins until whatever's caused the poor water is resolved (i.e. cycle finishes or fish are re-homed). Now if you like you can do this with RO water as suggested above, you will still be diluting the water, but all you'll be doing is adding water back in without all the vitamins and minerals that your fish need.

Really we can't make any more meaningfuly advise until you get us your test results and we can see what's really going on.