White Spot In Uncycled Tank - Best Course Of Action

[shrimply]

Hi guys,
 
I recently got 7 polka-dot loaches which i set up a quarantine tank for.  Unfortunately, for whatever reason the media I used obviously didn't have enough bacteria and I've been having to do regular water changes to get rid of ammonia.  It seems to be building up slower now which is positive but there is still no signs of nitrites which seems a bit odd.  The ammonia is rising by a maximum of 0.5ppm, and probably a bit less than that in 12 hours.
 
Anyway I'm pretty sure there is ich in the tank, which is by far my worst nightmare at the minute, although its very hard to get a definite look a couple have been flashing since I got them and as of this morning I noticed one that appeared to have clamped fins and a couple of small spots. But as I say then are fast and like to hide, getting a proper look isn't easy.
 
Anyone who knows about loaches knows that they are scale-less and so are sensitive to meds making treatment a bit of a challenge, these ones also like cooler water so raising the temperature isn't really an option.
 
I've been recommended eSHa exit in another thread which seems like a great, and short treatment.  However, if I'm going to be doing water changes to keep on top of the ammonia I worry that trying to kep the dose correct could be a challenge.  I also don't have it so would have to order it and wouldn't receive it until Thursday at the earliest I imagine.  I have protozin on the way, and could acquire some from a friend I'm sure but have heard horror stories of its use with loaches, plus its a longer treatment I'd still have the dosing problems.
 
Salt seems like a viable option, I have a tub of pure seasalt in the kitchen and could start treatment immediately, it has the benefit that it's also known to target various other infections which would be a bonus and if I do start having raised nitrite levels it would also counteract these.  Because of the ways the calculations are done I could continue water changes and easily ensure I was adding the right amount of salt to the water I added back in.  But it's a longer treatment time, doesn't target all stages of the life cycle like the eSHa does so I feel it might be more stressful for them.
 
Anyone want to weigh in, I'm worried about my new guys and will be so gutted if I lose them.  I really am trying to do my best for them and feel like I'm failing miserably.
So what are your thoughts.  I guess I could start with the salt treatment now, which would have the benefits listed above, should target all the free living parasites so that no new fish get infected and then complete the eSHa exit course when it arrives?
 
Thanks all

 

[the_lock_man]

THe reason you haven't seen any nitrite is probably that your established media had enough N-bacs to cope, but not enough A-bacs.
 
What's your pH? If it's quite low, then you will probably get away water changes at a few days - remember that at low pH, the Total Ammonia level reading from your test kit is more ammonium (low toxicity) than ammonia (high toxicity).
 
I wouldn't use the salt treatment with loaches.

 

[shrimply]

Hey,
 
 
Hmm, my research suggested salt might be the best course of action, lots of people suggest 1 teaspoon per gallon works well for clown loaches. Now I really don't know what to do.  The pH in the tank is around 8, so no, not that low.
 
I struggle to see how I could have more N-bacs than A-bacs, I guess the media I took might be better for the N-bacs, really wasn't supposed to be this complicated haha.
 
Really appreciate any help.  Feel I'm going to end up losing these guys and it will all be my fault.

 

[the_lock_man]

I think you are assuming that there is an even distribution of A-bacs and N-bacs around the filter media, which isn't the case. It is relatively random where the colonies initially grow, but they grow as a colony. It is quite feasible to have an individual piece of media with only one type of bacteria on it.
 
I guess I'm biased against salt anyway, as I'm not a fan of it as a treatment for whitespot, but certainly loaches are not wonderfully tolerant of salt. The halfdose you are talking about may work - but as I say, I much prefer medication to salt.
 
Each to their own, I s'pose.

 

[shrimply]

Thank you,
 
Yes this makes perfect sense, and I'm stupid not to have realised it (lets pretends I'm not doing a biology MSc right now).  Though none of the guides I've read on setting up a quarantine tank suggest you may be unlucky enough to take media without the right bacteria established on them.
 
I totally agree that salt isn't necessarily the best solution, and I've ordered some eSHa which should be here tomorrow or the next.  I'm going to add a small amount of salt very slowly in the meantime and monitor their behaviour.  Any discomfort and I will immediately stop, I'm in the lucky position that the quarantine tank is on my desk so I cam monitor them while I work. 
 
Once the medication arrives I'm just going to have to be very careful about when, and how I do water changes and hope I manage to get all the calculations right.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

 shrimply- it helps a lot if you put your country information where we can see it as the available meds in different countries vary drastically.
 

The reason you haven't seen any nitrite is probably that your established media had enough N-bacs to cope, but not enough A-bacs......
 
I think you are assuming that there is an even distribution of A-bacs and N-bacs around the filter media, which isn't the case. It is relatively random where the colonies initially grow, but they grow as a colony. It is quite feasible to have an individual piece of media with only one type of bacteria on it.

 
Nope- it is almost impossible to have more nitrite oxidizing capacity than ammonia oxodizing capacity in a biofilm. If a tank is being cycled the N bacs do not begin to multiply until the A bacs are pretty hard at work. In a tank that is cycled, there is a balance between the AOB and NOB such that ammonia being created becomes nitrate before ammonia or nitrite can be measured using hobby kits. It simply is not possible to have biofilms in an established tank that are not balanced in terms of ammonia and nitrite oxidizing capacity.
 
The two types develop inside a biofilm and work together. In fact they are found in close proximity inside the biofilm so the NOB are close by to get the nitrite as it is produced. It may be impossible to find any biofilm with only a single type of bacteria inside.
 

Whereas most of the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria were found throughout the biofilms, the location of nitrite-oxidizing bacteria was restricted to the active nitrite-oxidizing zone, which was detected in the inner part of the biofilms. Microelectrode measurements showed that the active ammonia-oxidizing zone was located in the outer part of a biofilm, whereas the active nitrite-oxidizing zone was located just below the ammonia-oxidizing zone and overlapped the location of NO2--oxidizing bacteria, as determined with FISH.

from http/www.iwaponline.com/wst/04212/wst042120021.htm
 
But common sense should also tell use why there will not be more nitrite processing capacity than ammonia processing inside a biofilm. Ammonia forms the basis of the chain. 1st there is no ammonia and no real bacteria present. Then ammonia increases and the result is AOB reproduce and as they do they convert the ammonia to nitrite. The NOB will not multiply until there is a build up of nitrite. So the AOB always come first and their processing capacity is always greater than the NOB until they reach equilibrium. Once this stage has been reached in an aquarium, it is hard to create an imbalance in the numbers via natural means. You can not separate the various colonies inside the biofilm from each other.
 
While science can study the various bacterial process inside the biofilm by selectively inhibiting the various bacteria, the agents of such inhibition are not likely to occur in a tank naturally. Moreover, where the bacteria might colonize in a tank is fairly easy to predict. The most bacteria will always be where the most consistent supplies of ammonia/nitrite, oxygen and carbonates are. Since these are all dissolved in the water, we are talking about where there is uninterrupted flow.
 
There is one way that the normal balance of AOB and NOB development in a tank being cycled can and does change, when one seeds with bacteria or adds live plants. The change in the dynamic is due to the presence of NOB from seeding and/or the ammonia processing capacity of the plants (less ammonia left for the bacteria means fewer AOB and NOB. With seeding there are some number of NOB present right away, as soon as the also present AOB go to work producing nitrite, some of that nitrite can be processed right away. If the two types of bacteria are in balance then one will see little or no nitrite unless ammonia is being dosed in clear excess of the ability of the AOA colonies to convert it to nitrite. Even then some low level of nitrite should still be detectable until the cycling has proceeded to a balanced state.
 
A much more likely explanation of what is happening in this tank is that the water changes are keeping ammonia levels so low that the ammonia bacs are not able to reproduce rapidly and thus the subsequent nitrite production is also limited. .5 ppm of ammonia will create a maximum of about 1.25 ppm of nitrite if nothing works to change things. But every time the ammonia hits .5 the OP is doing a water change to lower it. It is very simple, water changes always slow down the cycling process which is ammonia dependent. We add 2 -3 ppm of ammonia in a fishless cycle and watch it sit until the AOB reproduce and once they have started to, the nitrite rises. We do not take out the ammonia, we wait for the bacteria to multiply. What do you think would happen if we added 2 or 3 ppm and then soon after we did enough water changes to drop that level down below .5 ppm? Bear in mind that early on as the AOB are building up they are only converting a bit of the ammonia until they reach capacity. The amount of NOB needed to convert any nitrite that might get created in this scenario is minimal because the ammonia is being removed too quickly via water changes. So nitrite is being held in check by a lack of ammonia and it doesn't take many NOB to process any excess nitrite that might be created.
 
But I would be willing to accept the idea that there is a way a tank being cycled can have more NOB than AOB (with no seeding of NOB) if somebody can link me to the science detailing how this could happen. I have not seen any to date. So please, show me what I have missed in my understanding of the processes at work. Show me how it is possible to kill off AOB and not NOB in a tank or show me how it is possible to have more nitrite oxidizing capacity than ammonia oxiding capacity.
 
When it comes to treating loaches for ich, you can find a host of different opinions. Some say use salt not meds. Other say use fast acting meds and deal with it quickly. Some say only use 1/2 doses while others say use the full dose as you want it to be done as fast as possible. The one risk in using salt to treat ich in a tank that is cycling is the effect it can have on the bacteria. The AOB in fw and sw are not the same.
 

I have a Brackish water tank – which bacteria is for me?
The choice of whether to use the Freshwater One & Only or the Saltwater One & Only bacteria in a brackish water tank depends upon the salinity (or specific gravity [S.G.]) of your water.
 
If your salinity is less than 10 ppt (1.007 S.G.) then use the freshwater formula.
 
If your salinity is greater than 10 ppt (1.007 S.G.) then use the saltwater formula.

from http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/helpful-hints/one-and-only-nitrifying-bacteria-faqs
 
What further complicates this whole thing is that it is very hard to keep salt or meds in a tank when one is constantly doing water changes to hold down ammonia. Stress is a major factor in diseases and resistance to them. This is a tank with ammonia creating stress with lots of water changes being done, which also creates stress. However in regards to temperature, loaches.com suggests a temp. range for them of 75-82F (24-28°C). My guess is that they could handle it a bit warmer for a limited amount of time. Raising the temp to closer to 86F (30C) should be safe for a number of days in order to treat the fish.
 

Ich - Ick - White Spot Disease (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis)
    Symptoms: Salt-like specks on the body/fins.  Excessive slime. Problems breathing (ich invades the gills), clamped fins, loss of appetite.
 
   Ich, Ick, or White Spot Disease is the most common malady experienced in the home aquarium. Luckily, this disease is also easily cured if caught in time! Ich is actually a protozoa called Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. There are three phases to the life cycle of this protozoa. Normally, to the amateur aquarist, the life cycle is of no importance. However, since Ich is susceptible to treatment at only one stage of the life cycle, an awareness of the life cycle is important.

• Adult phase - it is embedded in the skin or gills of the fish, causing irritation (with the fish showing signs of irritation) and the appearance of small white nodules. As the parasite grows it feeds on red blood cells and skin cells. After a few days it bores itself out of the fish and falls to the bottom of the aquarium.
• Cyst phase - after falling to the bottom, the adult parasite forms into a cyst with rapid cell divisions occurring.
• Free swimming phase - after the cyst phase, about 1000 free swimming young swim upwards looking for a host. If a host is not found within 2 to 3 days, the parasite dies. Once a host is found the whole cycle begins anew.

   These three phases take about 4 weeks at 70° F but only 5 days at 80° F. For this reason it is recommended that the aquarium water be raised to about 80° for the duration of the treatment. If the fish can stand it, raise the temperature even higher up to 85°.
 
     The free swimming phase is the best time to treat with chemicals. Raising the aquarium temperature to 80° F will greatly shorten the time for the free swimming phase to occur. The drug of choice is quinine hydrochloride at 30 mg per liter (1 in 30,000). Quinine sulphate can be used if the hydrochloride is not available. The water may cloud but this will disappear. By reducing the time (with raised temperature) of the phases, you should be able to attack the free swimming phase effectively.
 
     Some aquarists like to use malachite green, but it tends to stain the plastic and silicone in the aquarium. Most commercial remedies contain malachite green and/or copper, which are both effective.

from http/animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/information/Diseases.htm#Ich

 

[shrimply]

Thanks TTA, I'm in the UK sorry, been a while since I've properly used the forum, but I swear all the information used to be in my profile.  Edit - it was in my profile, just not showing up is now though.
 
I have been upping the temperature slowly, it seems my original source of information about the comfort zone of these loaches was a bit conservative compared to others.
 
I have added salt up to 1g/litre, which works out about half a teaspoon per gallon I think which is the lower end of reccommended doses but there is reports of it clearing ich.  I am aware though that lower doses may lead to resistance rather than cure, really is hard to know what is best.
 
Your information on bacteria etc makes sense but I struggle to see why my bacteria, given its from a mature tank haven't began to multiply and produce excess nitrite at this point.  I am doing water changes yes, but there still is more ammonia in the water than the bacteria are dealing with so logically they should be increasing and multiplying.  Although I take your point that the amount of nitrite produced from the levels of ammonia I'm keeping in the tank may not be that great.
 
I realise that I may not be doing things right, I really am doing the best I can but as you say there is so much conflicting information about safe levels for loaches and how best to deal with ich.  And I am happy to try an take on board as much advice as possible, and am fully aware I may be making mistakes and am grateful to anyone who points them out.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The thing about nitrite is it comes from ammonia. if you keep lowering the ammonia levels as you are, there is not very much ammonia available for very much time. But your water changes are doing something else as well, what every small amount of nitrite is being created  is being quickly removed by the same water changes you are doing to lower ammonia.
 
Normally. what you see is ammonia going up and once you see it stop rising or see it coming down, this means it is being converted into nitrite. But the nitrite backs are slower to reproduce than the ammonia ones.
 
But your situation is compounded by your pH. Ammonia in water exists in 2 forms, NH3 which is very toxic and Nh4 which is way less so. Thus managing ammonia with fish present requires managing NH3 first and total ammonia (both types) second. The amount of each form which may be in a tank depends on the pH. The higher it is, the more of the ammonia that will be the toxic NH3. As temperature rises it will also increase this, but temp. is not nearly as strong a factor as pH.
 
In a tank with a pH of 8.0 and a temp of 76F and total ammonia showing at .5, the amount of this ammonia that is in the NH3 form is .0252. Under .02 is considered safe for all aquatic species. .05 is considered to be the level where harm for sure is happening. So in your tank the only reason to change water with a .5 ppm TA reading is if the fish show signs of ammonia poisoning. If they are behaving normally, I would not change any water. I would note that the toxic levels are stated using the nitrogen scale and our test kits use the total ion scale. So you can multiply that .02 ppm by about 1.2 of figure .024 ppm when based on a hobby test kit. The point is your fish are in much less danger think most think.
 
It is important to realize that this discussion relates to a tank with fish that is being cycled. We know that cycling, and the ammonia levels which come with it, does not last that long. Ammonia is only present for a couple of weeks before the bacteria are handling it all. So we know the ammonia wont last and why it is there. That is not the same thing as ammonia appearing in an established tank. There it is a different matter and the cause must be determined quickly and the remedy put in place ASAP.
 
What makes your situation more difficult is the presence of ich. And the thing is, it may be that the new fish themselves that brought the ich in with them.
 
And when and if you get nitrites, small amounts of salt- way, way way less than might be used to treat ich, will block the nitrite from entering the fish. So if you are still treating with salt for ich, you can let nitrites rise and not need to do water changes at all. The level you do not want to see is over 16 ppm on hobby kits as this level of nitrite will start inhibiting the bacteria and then start to kill some if it goes much higher.
 
However, what I would suggest here is removing the fish from the tank to a Rubbermaid if you have no spare tank. Add air, heat and salt for the ich and don't worrry about cycling. You will just do daily or twice daily water changes for that. Make sure to pre-treat the new water with salt before adding is to prevent TDS swings and get it up close to temp. to avoid swings in that too. At the same time raise the temp in the main tank to 86F (30C) and continue cycling it fishlessly. The ich in that tank will all die off in a week or less with no host at that temp. The fish in the Rubbermaid may take longer to cure. But it will be less stressful for them not to deal with both ich and ammonia/nitrite at the same time.

 

[paradiddle]

minor question, have you tested the water that comes out your tap?
This week for some reason i have found the water coming out of my tap tests at 0.1ppm for ammonia which is currently affecting my tank too (testing at 0.05 - 0.1 - i say this because its still yellow, but i can see a very minor greenish tint to it, tested the tap water and thats where i got the knowledge of very low ammonia reading)

 

[shrimply]

The tap water is fine, and I always get a 0 ammonia reading in my main tank.
 
TTA thanks for the advice, I'm not sure you totally understand the situation, maybe you do.  But to clarify, the loaches are in a quarantine tank which I set up using with plenty of media from my matured tank - so I wasn't expected the cycling to be an issue and am a bit confused.  I am pretty darn sure that I didn't do anything that could have killed off the bacteria in the media, so why its not coping with the ammonia at all is a bit confusing to me.  I can only presume that the media I used is less desirable than other media I have elsewhere in the tank, or that the bacteria is so spread out in the main tank that although I took plenty of media the amounts of bacteria were very small.
In any case, lesson learned, will set up and seed the quarantine tank with ammonia in advance next time - first time I thought it was a good idea to quarantine and slightly regretting it now haha.
 
I'm not noticing any signs of ammonia poisoning as such, but what I have noticed is that they all come out to play whenever I do a water change.
 
So I'm fine continuing to do water changes on the tank they are in but I'm worried that unless I get the filter bacteria stable quarantining will be less successful and far too stressful for them.  I had also hoped to carry out a course of anti-parasitic treatment as internal parasites are supposedly very common in these guys and that will be a nightmare if the tank is still needing twice daily water changes

 
I've tried my very best to do things correctly and by the book and I'm a bit torn up that it's gone so wrong.  I'll hate myself if I lose them.

 

[shrimply]

Few questions for anyone that can answer.
 
What is the best way to sterilise equipment between uses, is rinsing in tap water and allowing to dry enough, or should I be using bleach, or miltons or such like.
 
Should I wipe down the insides of the tanks and decor etc to dislodge any of the parasites before doing a water change, I'm thinking the more that are in the water column, the more that will get removed.
 
And should I be removing and sterilising the decor etc periodically.
 
Cheers

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Bleaching kills almost anything. However, using bleach on organics will degrade them. I keep a couple of ornaments and fakes plants to use in hospital and quarantine tanks because I can bleach them when done where needed. The problem is that sponges do not like being bleached, it will foster their breaking down, so often I simply throw hem out. I never use a cycled Hospital tank but rather choose water changes since I do not expect to use one all that long.
 
What I do to sterilize when it is needed is to change the water in the tank and then add the bleach. I let the tank run with bleach water in it. I find that a 15% solution seems to do the job. Breaking down organic waste in my micron carts uses a 25% mix, but it is intended to dissolve stuff. Then the tank is well rinse and allowed to dry throroughly.
 
It is typical of some fish to play in the clean water coming in. In my pleco breeding tanks I alwasy see new fry during water changes.
 
The reason for my suggestion is of you have cycling issues in the tank, for whatever reason, constantly dropping ammonia levels means cycling is extended. But what your answer above also shows is that .5 ppm likely is not bothering them. We know the level of NH3 is not a problem at .025 ppm, so I would not do a wc until ammonia levels went over .5 or if you notice the signs. As for the signs of ammonia poisoning which are:
 

[SIZE=13pt]Signs Of Ammonia Poisoning [/SIZE]
 
Fish will not behave as they normally do. Signs of ammonia poisoning can include sluggish behavior, panting, and gill discoloration (gill burn). Fish may hang just below the water surface or they may hide or stop eating. When you know you have ammonia in the tank during cycling and you notice such behavioral changes, the best course of action, regardless of test results, it to do an immediate water change of 50% or more.

 

 

[shrimply]

Thank you.
 
I was more meaning sterilising equipment between uses, nets etc. But a bleach solution and rinse seems the best answer.
 
I have the tank up at 30C and 1g/litre of salt.
 
The readings have been sitting somewhere between 0.5ppm and 1ppm today, but I haven't yet done a water change.  The fish aren't showing any signs of being affected by any of the changes that I can see.  I put a piece of carrot in for them a few minutes ago and they all came out to have a nibble and see what the new object was.  The two that have visible white spots ( and there aren't many, 2 or 3 specks on each) are hiding away more and are more skittish, but I'm presuming this is more to do with their infection than any of the other changes.
 
I'll keep up water changes daily of 50 - 70% and I have a spare heater to make sure the new water is the same temperature and the 1g/litre of salt makes it easy to measure.
 
The medication I ordered should be here tomorrow, and I'm hoping to use it as instructed, the only issues is the water changes will disrupt the dose, I've emailed the company to ask their advice.  But maybe I should just treat the tank with Seachem safe over the following days to keep the ammonia down and remove the need for water changes, or is this also likely to affect the medications.  eSHa Exit is the medication I've ordered, it's safe for sensitive fish and the company claims dosing over three consecutive days is enough to eliminate ich as it targets all three life stages.  My thoughts are that the best method will be to complete the course of treatment, then keep the elevated temperature and salt in the water for an additional 5 days or so before reducing both of them back down.  And then work out where I am after that.
 
Out of interest, if you need to medicate in your quarantine tanks how do you go about this, as I said my concern is that I'll remove any medication with water changes.  Would it be worth investing in a chemical control, such as purigen to use in such cases, though I appreciate that this is also likely to remove meds.  Trying to learn from my mistakes here, as well as correcting my current problem haha.  I'm doing my best, honest.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Fe notes- salt will help to some extent with ammonia, but not the way it can with nitrite. In your pH you should not allow the ammonia to be at 1 ppm for any length of time.
 
The way to deal with meds and water changes is a combination of timing and replacement. If you can time having to do a water change to when you are also supposed to be redosing meds into the tank, it is simple. Do the water change, then dose the meds. It is when you are between doses that you need to do things differently. What you shoot for is to replace those meds removed. So if you do a 25% water change, you put in a 25% dose with the new water.
 
What you are trying to do is maintain the same (or really as similar as you cen get) level of meds in the water. In your case using salt you need to match the salinity of the new water to that of the tank. This way you avoid raising or lowering it. Bear in mind salt is removed via water changes but not via evaporation. So if you are just trying to top off the H/Q tank, do not use salt or meds in the replacement water for this.
 
I am also not a fan of mixing meds and salt for fw fish. Use one or the other but not both. If you want to switch over to meds from salt you need to do a big water change first.
 
Also an an FYI for folks who use th4e ammonia calc I normally link to, it seems to be down. I am not sure if it is temporary or not. However, folks can find others by doing a Google for "Ammonia Calculator" here are a couple I found:
http/www.hbuehrer.ch/Rechner/Ammonia.html
http/www.svl.net/resources/calculators/unionized-amonia-calculator

 

[shrimply]

Hmm, can I ask why you wouldn't mix the salt and meds.  It seems generally accepted to do so, and I've been reading accounts of people that have done so with the medication I've ordered.  I'm not convinced the levels of salt I'm adding are going to be sufficient to eradicate the problem by themselves.  The 3 day treatment also seems like the least amount of suffering to get rid of the ich.
 
With salt the medication with water changes isn't an issue, however with a biodegradable medication working out how much you need to replace becomes an issue, you are never sure how long the medication would be in the water and be effective.
 
I've just done a water change, most of them still seem unaffected by the changes, definitely no symptoms of ammonia poisoning. Still all active and generally behaving normally, other than the two which are flashing, presumably due to the ich infection.