White Hole/spots On Discus

[ClkJay]

135 Gallons
PH 6.8
4 - 4" Discus
5 - 2-3" Discus
1 Pleco
8 rummy nose
9 - cardinals

For the past week, I have noticed that this one discus has been dark for 80% of the time. Today I have noticed that on both sides of his head, there are these white spot/hole looking things. I have had these fish for 3-4 months now and have not added any new fish. There are also small white dots on its body. Should I be concerned about this? The hole looking things are above his eye and behind the first solid black stripe. You can see all the ####e stuff on the first pic.

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

The picture is kind of hard to see, any clearer ones?

The fish definitley looks ill to me , the good news is that those dots your a seeing are probably just sensory pits, which all Discus have. Wish I could find a better picture, but if the dots look like this: http/k41.pbase.com/o2/34/564334/1/525470...NewDiscus08.jpg then it's no problem. What do you feed them, how often? How often do you do water changes and at water quantity? Temperature? Water stats (ammo,nitrite and nitrate?)

Those white spots look sort of like excess slime coat, although it is sort of hard to see.

 

[WILDER]

Just read this to rule it out.
http/www.fishyfarmacy.com/articles/hexamita.html

 

[ClkJay]

DiscusLova: I cant view the pic that you posted

Wilder: I read up on the article, I have noticed that the 4 4-5" Discus has been very shy lately. They have been very dark and tend to be always hiding between the rocks. During feeding time, they come out but they remain really dark. They normally would show full color during feeding time.

Temperature: 86
Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate: 0
I change the water every 3-4 days of 20%
PH:6.8
Feed: Frozen Bloodworms (thawed in portion of tank water for 5 mins before feeding)

All the pictures that I have shown are of one fish. I currently have moved him to a different tank that I have been running with the same parameters and have put in API general cure medication. He is apparently not showing the dark colors and seem to be showing his normal self but all the white stuff, along the top portion of the body, now looks like scrape marks. Looks like he has been rubbing on things that caused damage to the body. His fins look a little damaged after I moved him. Dont know if it is fin rot or from the moving him around.

 

[ClkJay]

I now see stringy things hanging on from inside his gills...

 

[WILDER]

The stringy stuff from the gills, does it look like cotton fungus or parasites.
Are the gills red and inflamed, or pale with excess mucas.
Any excess mucas on the body of the fish.
Any sores or red pin marks on the fish.
Do the fish swim in a jerky movement.
Any signs of darting or erratic swimming.

I would read this to rule it out.


Discus Plague



Symptoms:

This disease is most often observed in discus, angels, uarus, severums and oscars. Fishes infected with Discus Plague will lose their natural coloring, turn dark, and become reclusive, huddling together in a dark corner of the tank. Heavy mucus secretions on the skin, accompanied by severe fin rot, scratching or rubbing against objects in the aquarium, and rapid breathing are also characteristic symptoms of Discus Plague. Upon close examination, the fins of sick fish may exhibit clear, non-pigmented areas where the tissue appears have dissolved. The mucus layer will also appear streaky where the fish has been rubbing against objects. Even though infected fishes appear to be very sick, they continue to eat, although sparingly. When feeding, they move in a tight school to the food, and retreat together to a dark corner. Some fish may even lie horizontally on the top or bottom of the tank, trying to hide in the merest shadow!



Cause:

Due to a bacterial infestation from any or all of the following bacteria: Hexamitiases, Pseudomonas, Streptococcus, Chondrococcus columnares and Aeromonas. This disease is typically introduced into an aquarium by a new fish, plants, decorations, or live food. The carrier is usually not a sick fish, but rather a healthy fish or plant from a tank which harbored the disease in the past. Fish will begin to display the symptoms described above within 3 to 5 days after exposure. Mature adult fish appear to suffer the most severe symptoms, often dying within the first few days of the disease.



Treatment:

Effective medications include the antibiotics Chloramphenicol, Tetracycline, Oxytetracycline or Gentomycin. These will quickly arrest the fin deterioration as well as reduce the mucous production on the skin. These drugs will not, however, cause sick fish to immediately regain their natural color or cease any "huddling" behavior. Within 7-21 days, however, these symptoms vanish and your fish will reappear at the front of the tank, looking for food.

Concurrent treatment with oxidizing agents, like Potassium Permanganate, will help to keep the bacterial count down (which will aid your fish in its natural fight against the infestation). Controlling the temperature of your aquarium has also proven to be effective in the treatment of Discus Plague. Try to keep the temperature of your aquarium or hospital tank in the 85-90 F range, if your fish can handle it. A low pH (5.5 - 6.5) may also prove helpful as some bacterial species are not able to withstand an acidic environment.

 

[rabbut]

This may come across as harsh or blunt, if so I'm sorry, that is not intentional, however

You are offering a Poor diet
You aren't doing enough water changes
The pH is too low for most tank bred Discus. Unless these are German bred, or bred locally in water with the same parameters as yours, I aim to pull the pH up

Discus need at lesat 3 feeds day, half frozen/fresh and half a good quality pellet. A single food item diet will lead to dietary deficiencies and illness before too long. Get them onto a good pellet food like Vipakraft Discusin, Kisuri Discus, Tetramin e.t.c and then broaden their frozen or fresh food diet with insect lave, whiteworm, Daphnia e.t.c. This can easily be done with packs of frozen Tropical Quintet. The issue you have now is that they are used to just Blood Worms and are likely to refuse new food types A healthy Discus on a good diet will eat literally anything edible that's stuck in it's tank. For their own good, if they refuse the new foods, cut out the Bloodworm completely and offer only the new foods until they eat anything and everything. Starve them for a month if necessary, if they had a good weight before starting, they'll easily go a couple of months without food, and they aren't that hungry oif they feel like refusing to eat something edible

Juvinile Discus like yours need 50% twice weekly water changes to avoid stunting them in a bare tank, 50% daily if you have substrate Step up the water changes considerably if you can

While I cannot see anything that is definitely HITH (it looks like excess slime to me in the pictures), if you allow the poor diet and poor water change schedule like it is it's only a matter of time before you do see it In 90% of HITH cases, you'll find poor diet or water quality to be a factor

With the stuff in the gills, can you describe what it looks like. From stuff hanging off you could be looking at anything from excess slime, through cartesian parasites through to some Protozoan parasites and even bacterial infections. We need a better description of these thongs hanging out of the gills, and the gills themselves. Post that info and get onto a large water change (50-75%) while you await a reply I find a hose far easier than buckets for water changes on larger tanks BTW

All the best
Rabbut

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

Probably excess mucus, especially if he has been flicking against stuff and scraping himself, excess slime coat can also be a sign of external parasites. Turning dark is a sign of stress. As Wilder said, could definitley be Discus plague, but lets hope for the best because this is VERY hard to treat and a lot of fish that get it can't pull through

I agree with Rabbut and forgot to add, feeding only blood worms is not a good diet for your Discus, and this can actually cause HITH, so your fish may actually have HITH. I do not agree with Rabbut though on the amount of water changed, I definitley think you need to change more water, Rabbut why 50% daily with gravel? Where did you get this percentage from? Do not starve Discus unless they are adults and fully grown, you could set them back in growth or even stunt them. Leave them for a day or two without food, and then offer them a new food, try brine shrimp. If they don't eat it, siphon out all uneaten food and give them some blood worms. Try this a few times and if it doesn't work then slowly ween the fish onto the new food by mixing the food and blood worms.

 

[rabbut]

I said 50% daily, as you need to thoroughly vacuum all the gravel daily to avoid waste build-up. I find that to thoroughly clean the whole area of substrate you usually take out about 50% of the water, or you have left dirt there While starving juvenile Discus may well slow their growth, I have not found any other way to reliably get them to eat a more varied diet if they refuse new foods. If you have any ideas on alternative methods I'd love to hear them tough. At this point however, correcting the diet should get priority over growth IMO, as three to four months of a bad diet will have left the fish deficient in something for sure, and they'll struggle to shake off whatever they catch until the diet is fixed

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

I said 50% daily, as you need to thoroughly vacuum all the gravel daily to avoid waste build-up. I find that to thoroughly clean the whole area of substrate you usually take out about 50% of the water, or you have left dirt there While starving juvenile Discus may well slow their growth, I have not found any other way to reliably get them to eat a more varied diet if they refuse new foods. If you have any ideas on alternative methods I'd love to hear them tough. At this point however, correcting the diet should get priority over growth IMO, as three to four months of a bad diet will have left the fish deficient in something for sure, and they'll struggle to shake off whatever they catch until the diet is fixed

Still not sure about the 50% Like I said in my above post. You can start by giving the food you want to ween them onto just in the morning when they are hungry, although this sometimes doesn't work, so it is better to leave the fish without food for a day or two, and then feed them the new food. Like I said, brine shrimp may be a good one to try in this case. If they don't eat it siphon out all uneaten food and give them something they will eat, and try the same thing over again. Either that, or you can slowly ween them on by mixing food.

One thing I have considered trying (although never had to) is to put garlic guard into the food they are eating for a good few weeks of feeding, and then also put garlic guard into the new food you want them to to start eating. Garlic will increase palatability, but it will also give them a common in taste in both foods that may make them venture out to try it more willingly. Not sure if it will work though, I will have to try it when the time is right.

 

[ClkJay]

Rabbut: Bring my PH higher than 6.8? Wouldn't it be neutral or the more alkalinity side? 3 feeds per day?

Someone had told me not to siphon all of the gravel every water change, but instead to do half one time and the other half the next time I change water.

I have him in a 35 gallon separate tank right now and under close observations. I am currently using the API general cure medication along with Pimafix and Melafix. The fin rot has seem to have stopped. At the very end of where the fin rot and the good part of the fin meet, I now have little cotton like looking things on it.

Its gills look normal. I will continue to observe it for a few days and keep you informed.

I want to thank everyone for their help, for it has narrowed down the possibilities of what my fish might have.

 

[rabbut]

Most tank bred stock is from Asia, where they get 90% daily water changes in bare tanks, with water of a pH around 7.5. Discus grow out quicker in harder, more alkaline water, so the breeders only lower the pH for spawning. Once the fish have spawned, they bring the pH up while the eggs still haven't hatched via a constant water change system. Most tank bred stock will never have seen a pH below 7.5 ever in it's free swimming life for this reason, until the get onto a 36 hour flight from Singapore to the UK, and a CO2 build-up in the bag drops the pH lower. This CO2 seriously upsets them for the reason of a big pH swing, but it ultimately saves their lives by turning the Ammonia into mostly Ammonium. Back in a tank they recover quickly at a pH of 7.5. I find if you drop the pH past 7.0, they go into a strop in most instances, and it can be hard then to pull them round. For the most part, Tank Bred Discus seriously do not like a low pH

You get the idea with the way to go, bigger, more regular water changes, more regular feedings and pulling the pH up. If you run a UGF (Under Gravel Filter, a filter type that I would advise against in a Discus tank due to the difficulty of cleaning and the fact that they trap dirt hence becoming Nitrate and Dissolved Organics factories) it would be wise to only do half the plate at a time, but in all other cases, I'd do the whole gravel area in one go

All the best
Rabbut

PS I almost forgot, add to the "to do" list, fixing their diet