What Substrate To Use And How Deep?

[rich05uk]

Hello All,

I am new to keeping fish and am about to setup my new tank. It's 36" long, 15" wide and 18" high. I'm planning on putting living plants into the tank and wanted to know what substrate to use and how deep to make it, I have no idea and I'm sure I've read that some substrates are better than others if having living plants. I've even read that you can combine different substrates in layers, how and which ones?

Thanks.

 

[manwithnofish]

Well there is some controversy over the depth thing but you will be safe if you plan on 2 to 3 inches. The controlversy involves more then 3 inches. As to the substrates. Google Dr. Forster & Smith and look at substrates on their site or Google it anywhere. I chose Eco-Complete for the bottom layer of my tank and put Flourite on top.

 

[rich05uk]

Sorry for the delay, i've been working away from home and just returned this weekend.

Thanks for the advice. I've looked at these 2 products and they are so expensive. I agree they look fantastic and like in particular the Eco Complete (Seachem Flourite looks ok too), but I would need 5 x 9KG bags for my tank to give a 3" layer, that's going to cost me £100+ just for substrate.

Can this (or Flourite) be mixed with something else to make it cheaper, if so what and how (e.g. mixed or placed in Layers)?

Cheers.

 

[BigC]

Hi,
Although the above mentioned substrates are great products, I wouldn't personally go to that expence. This is what I do and you can see, from the accompaning pic, that its cheap but practicle.

Mix enough unwashed small grained gravel with a substrate additive such as DBL's Florapol that will cover your aquarium base to around 25mm (do not use pea size as its too open for plants and not sand as it compacts to tightly around the plant roots) Then cover this first layer with a 35mm of washed small grained gravel. This will provide a good basis for your plants. You can get some really nice coloured gravels from your local pet store these days, I got that nice deep natural sand coloured one from Petsmart. Bare in mind that there are other issues that need to be addressed when wanting to grow aquarium plants sucessfully.
Regards
BigC

 

[waterdrop]

So I'm just learning and have had exactly the same question as Rich.

Are Eco-Complete and Florurite and DBL Florapol all just good for live plants in general? Or is there no point in doing them unless you are going to follow one of the more-or-less known planted-tank procedures? Perhaps what I'm asking is how do the substrate nutrients relate to the EI overall nutrient dosing type things(?)

~waterdrop~

 

[BigC]

Hi waterdrop,

Perhaps what I'm asking is how do the substrate nutrients relate to the EI overall nutrient dosing type things(?)

I am not a particular techie minded sort of guy when it comes to your above question, EI to me is a new method to spring up around the aquarium plant world. Being old skool so to speak There is no mention of it in my old plant books so to that end I am totally uneducated and ingorant in such new developments. I initally wanted a planted aquarium not plastic plants. Done a bit of reading and taylored a plan to suit my budget hence the above substrate answer. I also wanted to kind of relax away from the tank and enjoy it as such, whereby dedicated plant geeks are always delving into their aquarium to change this and change that, add this and add that... and not really getting any time to enjoy the thing in front of them. They seem to take it as an obsession. I can grow plants with what I have, to the point of just taking cuttings every now and then. After which I can sit down and enjoy looking at my aquarium without the stress. Aquariums in my day were ment to be theraputic not like today, they seem to cause more stress.
Speak to George Farmer in the planted section of the forum or even PM him, he is very conversant in such matters and is always willing to share his views and experiences. He is more than capable of suggesting a plan to suit your needs, albeit costly.
Regards
BigC

 

[waterdrop]

BigC,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful answer. Actually your answers are probably just the type to help me a lot. I am in the unusual situation of being an old guy who is just recently helping my 11-year-old set up his first tank. I had a lot of tanks in the 60s, doing it for quite a few years then and off and on in the 70s. So I have missed the bulk of all the wonderful new techniques that are used now and am fascinated by them. In this first little tank I do not have the support of the rest of the family to do too much planted tech due to both the time and money etc. I don't think. But for myself I can't stop reading and trying to learn all about both the fish and plant things I now find I do not know.

I have been reading over in the planted section and have even had some of the famous fellows answer a few questions but I basically have not started asking those questions in earnest because I feel I must do much more homework first in order to not waste their time. So I am holding some of those more extensive questions until I can formulate them better. The four or more spheres of planted tanking seem daunting; lighting, CO2, substrate/dosing and agae -- each seeming to have its own little world of skills to be learned.

Meanwhile I have just set out to try and make things a little better for live plants in this tank, even though I don't have the skills to necessarily make the right initial choices. I've bought some flourite and I am at least aware of how low my watts/G are and most of all I'm planning to stick to easy plants at first and there seem to be some lists of those about on TFF I think. The CO2, more light and dosing decisions will have to follow before too long I guess.

~~waterdrop~~
ps. Relaxing in front of my tanks was the most powerful memory carried forward from those previous years - I truly agree about it.

 

[BigC]

Hi again waterdrop
Yeah, things really have moved on a pace in the aquarium world, and I commend you in trying to further you knowledge in the field of sucessfully growing Aquarium plants. One thing you seemed to have missed in all this (easily overlooked I know) is the water itself. Tapwater IMO is useless as it contains too many things that can contribute to algal blooms, (mainly Phosphates) which can make many a dedicated plant enthusiast give up. RO water would be much better but that comes with problems too as balanced additives have to be added back to this for it to sustain life. You are right in saying that there are a lot of new skills involved. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I have never seen a beautifully maintained planted tank in its original state (planting scheme) which has stood the test of time. I have a problem sometimes with Amano style tanks which are beautiful for the camera but somehow are never maintained for any length of time. But each to their own.
Regards
BigC

P.S. Sorry rich if we hijacked you thread somewhat.

 

[rich05uk]

That's fine BigC & Waterdrop, I think you guys helped me a few weeks ago with another problem to which I am thankful, break out posts like this make you think and I've certainly learnt a few things as ultimately I hope to keep plants too. Hence my other topic about water conditioners, maybe you would like to contribute and help me with this too...

Anyway I have bit the bullet and purchased today 4 bags of Eco Complete for £80 which i'm told will give me 1.5 inches of substrate and this would be fine for light planting...... Lets hope it was worth the investment.

Thanks all.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Rich! I meant to say my apologies yesterday re hijacking some but I was so rushed for a swimmeet that the boys had that I just had to insert my couple of threads when I had a moment.

Hey, glad to hear you made a decision and hope you will let us know your feelings later as to how the 1.5" of EC goes with your live plants. You are in good company at least as I see threads of quite a few going with that substrate. I was set to do that also but made a last-minute switch to flourite mostly because of the color choice I wanted, despite thinking the EC is probably the better nutrient-provider of the two. Rich, one minor thing I can say about depth of substrate is that (shy of going too deep and possibly causing problems that might come with that as mentioned by someone) I think sometimes planted tank folks just want parts to be very deep in order to design a certain look. If you read the critique paragraphs of the tanks in the ADA competitions the judges sometimes suggest more depth in certain situations - anyway, style, not function sometimes I think.

(ps. Rich, don't you wish we had an end result like BigCs picture? Sure would be great .. is my take!)

Hi BigC, Yes, you have made me think some more.. I have to admit I hadn't really thought about whether the sparkling tanks I see in some of those pictures were able to hold that great look for very many years, months or even weeks(!) A thought to make one pause. I'll bet it varies widely and one can never really know, other than ones own tank.

I hope RO water wouldn't be the only way to go. In my case that would probably rule me out - so difficult to build the water back up to what it should have in it and all at such great expense! I know that some are forced to do it because of their water authority situation but I've always felt lucky to have good baseline tap water parameters.

Anyway, tell us, if you care to, a few of the other "planted" parameters of how you achieved the tank in the picture. How many w/g for the light? etc.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Dave Spencer]

Perhaps what I'm asking is how do the substrate nutrients relate to the EI overall nutrient dosing type things(?)
~waterdrop~

Using substrates such as Tropica, ADA and EC means you are using a substrate with a good cation exchange capacity. This means that they pull positively charged ions such as Mg and Ca out of the water column and provide nutrients to the roots. ADA Aqua Soil will actually lower the kH of your water by a small amount.

The benefit of a substrate such as those mentioned is that it allows a bit of leeway if you are slack with your water column dosing.

EI is essentially dosing the water column to supply the nutrients to your plants. Plants can take nutrients in through their leaves or roots. The beauty of this sytem is that you can use a very basic, cheap substrate such as play sand.

Using a substrate with a good CEC alongside EI gives the best of both worlds. I use both EC and Aqua Soil alongside EI with fantastic results. Essentially, there is no plant I haven`t been able to grow thus far, using these two set ups. The substrate gives me lots of room to manoeuvre, should I forget to dose the water column with nitrates and phosphates.

As for RO water in a planted tank, you would be in a very small minority if you went down this route. Tap water loaded with phosphates and nitrates should still be fine to use.

Dave.

 

[waterdrop]

Perhaps what I'm asking is how do the substrate nutrients relate to the EI overall nutrient dosing type things(?)
~waterdrop~

Using substrates such as Tropica, ADA and EC means you are using a substrate with a good cation exchange capacity. This means that they pull positively charged ions such as Mg and Ca out of the water column and provide nutrients to the roots. ADA Aqua Soil will actually lower the kH of your water by a small amount.

The benefit of a substrate such as those mentioned is that it allows a bit of leeway if you are slack with your water column dosing.

EI is essentially dosing the water column to supply the nutrients to your plants. Plants can take nutrients in through their leaves or roots. The beauty of this sytem is that you can use a very basic, cheap substrate such as play sand.

Using a substrate with a good CEC alongside EI gives the best of both worlds. I use both EC and Aqua Soil alongside EI with fantastic results. Essentially, there is no plant I haven`t been able to grow thus far, using these two set ups. The substrate gives me lots of room to manoeuvre, should I forget to dose the water column with nitrates and phosphates.

As for RO water in a planted tank, you would be in a very small minority if you went down this route. Tap water loaded with phosphates and nitrates should still be fine to use.

Dave.

gee, ask and ye shall receive! Thanks Dave.

So what I hear you saying is that a special plant substrate like the above, used in combo with an EI technique is a win-win situation. It gives a little insurance for the times you forget or can't get to it. Sounds pretty good. I was hoping for that when I bought the Seachem Flourite - I hope that one will do some positive things too even if its not considered the best of them at the moment?

Another question: Do you think it would be possible to tread a path of Flourite and EI dosing and about 70% of substrate coverage by "easy" plants BUT with low light and no CO2 AND still avoid algae problems? (I'm still almost completely inexperienced but trying to work out in my mind how I could do a subset of things to grow nice live plants in my kids tank but without turning it into a "high tech planted tank hobby behind the little door in the tank stand, lol)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[rich05uk]

This is fantastic stuff. Thanks Dave for your input too.

I was just about to ask the same (or similar) question as waterdrop. As mentioned above, I hope to have about 1.5 inches of EC throughout and will be using EI dosing technique with between 50 – 75 % coverage of “easy” plants, I’d rather not have CO2 at this point (might in the future though) and will have 2.1 WPG of light. Will this work ok and will it (fingers crossed) work well to keep algae away.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Rich,

Yes, we've asked the questions with our fingers crossed but I'm pessimistic about what Dave will tell us. I somehow think that EI dosing really needs to have CO2 used in concert. When I read I keep getting the feeling that once you "pep up" either light or dosing or co2 you kind of need them all or the plant will grow in a funny way. (Sort of like a potted plant under a plant light that grows long and spindly when it gets no fertilizer perhaps..) (On the other hand, if you search on my name over in the planted section, the middle result has an answer by Barr that sounds promising.. but definately not as simple as you and I are hoping I think.)

Just dropping you this since Dave probably won't get back on til morning, ~~waterdrop~~