Water Parameters (hard To Explain In Title) Please Read

[markandjanice]

ok i have an RO machine which i am using its pointless not too, recently took delivery of frontosas, don't worry only an inch and in 4ft tank, 6-7ft custom built tank will be purchase in next year or so.

as i say i am using RO water, the tank has ocean rock and coral sand substrate hence raises PH (8.2) to be suiltable for the frontosas, but obviously when i come to do a water change (wkend) the RO PH/KH etc will be lower than the tank.

does anyone have a fomulae of mixing RO with rock salt, epson salt and bicarb that would work? looking to roughly to change 25% of the tank so this would be 65litres (not sure what that would be in gallons)

hope this makes sense to people?

 

[Aquascaper]

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) you're after a way of buffering the RO water so it doesn't cause your tank water to crash pH-wise?

I'm not sure myself as the only time this would've been an issue for me was when I had my last marine tank so was adding salt to the RO anyway. The only thing that springs to mind is the additive 'RO-Right' but that will do other things as well as increase pH/KH

If you don't get any answers you could possibly look at doing smaller water changes more frequently. This would mean the impact of the RO on the tank water would be minimal and easily absorbed without having to add anything to it?

 

[elmo666]

Ok, read your post, and one thing confuses me. This may be down to inexperience, so please feel free to correct me if am wrong. My understanding/use of r/o is to remove unwanted minerals etc as I have soft water species. I know its used for marine as they heave a requirement for high quality water conditions and exact specific gravity which the use of r/o makes alot easier to maintain. I don't see a specific need for r/o in your instance as I would imagine the tap water comes out with all parameters below those that you are wanting within your tank. Then again, in using the r/o in this way, doesn't it become a taking away, adding back situation? Gonna watch this one with interest, see if I can learn something

 

[markandjanice]

buffering is what i am trying to do yes smaller water changes could be a good idea as the impact will be a lot less, the water is at temp so no shock/stress to fish there and the external filter turns my tank over roughly 6-7 times an hour so the PH will soon raise.

elmo you are right, but as i say ive got it i may as well use it, ie: pure and buffer back up! malawis/fronts love hard water i would agree with you but i know people or read that people use bicard to raise the PH which it would do on RO less harmfully ie not chemically, and ive read the rock and epson salt hard the GH/KH of the water.

youre probably right the tap water would be fine left over nite and brough to temp however not really got the room and the RO and piping is rigged/setup

its what am here for also emlo to learn and i feel this could be an interesting thread.

basically i am lookin to use the RO but wanting to know how to do it to suit my frontosas thanks for the replys and hopefully we all learn

 

[markandjanice]

right well ive just been home and took 22 litres of RO water, mixed half teaspoon of bicarb in some hot water so it dissolves, i then added this to the RO water shock the RO water in the container upside down so it mixed well and the PH is 8.2 - PERFECT!!!

i need to do the same on ROCK and EPSON salts but at repsent dont have a test kit for this so may take it to the local fish shop!

 

[Aquascaper]

Make sure you allow time for things to settle down and then retest to be on the safe side before adding to the tank

 

[mossonthemoon]

I am asking this because I genuinely don't know and not necessarily because I am doubting this method, but won't relying on bicarb potentially cause a harmful sodium build-up? And will the water be lacking in essential minerals? (I know you can add these back to RO water, but I didn't see this mentioned here, unless I missed it.)

 

[markandjanice]

hi aquascaper my intention is to remove RO water add bicarb leave for an hour or two then add to tank! i have this water in a water carrier at home now so will test at ttime and post back on here tonight to see what level the PH is at, however i am interested in someone being able to reply or confirm mossonthemoons point tho ie: sodium build up?

re: essential minerals lacking, this is what the epson salts and rock salts will do once added back to the RO, it may seem nuts but as i av an RO machine churning RO water out i may as well use it then i no what is going in my tank, ie: pure water made back up with ingredients that i know are included in the water (if that makes sense)???

someone i know said they use 1 teaspoon of each of the metioned per 10 gallon which is roughly 45litres.

 

[Aquascaper]

This is always an issue with RO water, you remove everything (theoretically) and are left with pure water. By removing everything the water loses any buffering capability, trace elements, etc. so to regain these properties you need to add things back.

This is ideal in marine tanks as you can therefore control what is going back into the tank (within reason) but not so good for freshwater when you are only trying to maintain certain parameters like pH. As already mentioned, in marine tanks the salt and vast quantity of calcium based rock and sand mean buffering is not usually an issue but in freshwater tanks it can be.

As for the build up of sodium when using sodium bicarbonate as a buffer I'm not versed enough to answer with any degree of confidence without doing some research but it could be a valid point. Possibly a Calcium Carbonate would be a better option as the residue would be calcium based rather than sodium?

I know that there are products available to marine aquarists such as Kent Marine RO Right which will add back the 'good' stuff but unsure if there is a freshwater variant. If there is that would be my product of choice rather than adding Carbonates until told otherwise.

HTH

 

[elmo666]

Nice one....... glad you got it sorted

 

[mossonthemoon]

Thanks for the reply and sorry if I cause any unnecessary worry. I was asking for several reasons: one being that I am kind of helping to talk someone through setting up a tank. They have RO water in their home, but it is re-mineralised at a few points in the house so it is healthy for them. The other is because when I cycled my tank I had to use bicarb to buffer the pH during a crash and was advised to do a large water change to remove any traces. So that part did make me somewhat concerned, but I also just want to learn more.

 

[markandjanice]

AQUASCAPER what a BRILLIANT reply, thanks... i am going to do a bit of digging around but short term going to use bicarb as it does bring my PH up, and if i only do a weekly water change i dont think it'll hurt short term, but i am going to look for some calmcium carbonate.

mossonthemoon i added bicarb when i did my fishless cycle also and worked a treat during this.

thanks again guys, would be great to have a reply from a fellow malawi or frontosa keeper, please note that is not over looking the advice i have been given but just to hear or see

thanks again all

 

[Aquascaper]

Ok, after some trawling around on t'internet I've found several articles on the use of sodium bicarbonate in aquariums for raising pH.....

The conclusion is whilst it raises pH initially it is not an effective buffer so pH will drop down over time (I think in markandjanice's case this wouldn't pose a huge problem as the rock and sand will provide buffering given time). The down sides are that it will increase alkalinity and over time the build up of sodium ions will pose a threat to the fish. As markandjanice will be adding more sodium ions every time they do a water change these will have no way of being removed from the system so will only increase.

Information on using calcium carbonate is more positive however it takes a lot longer to dissolve and the pH to reach stability so not really an option for water changes (unless you prepare the water a few days in advance ).

From what I can find the 'safest' option would be to either find a product specifically for raising pH of RO water or make multiple small water changes rather then one large one.

If anyone else finds anything else out post it as I'm interested to find out the best way now

 

[markandjanice]

thats interesting to read again aquascaper, hmmmmmmm, the part of "sodium ions" is not good and does make me think ... as i say a short term solution and i mean maybe 2 or 3 water changes which would give me a few weeks maybe wouldn't be too hurtful but LONG term as you say i dont see this as a solution or way to do this!

the calcium carbonate seems the best route, i have / was told to dissolve the bicarb in hot water which basically mixes it instantly then add this to the RO, as i say i will re-test, i'm wondering if doing the same with the calcium carbonate would work the same way?

i could do this in advance ie: a day or so but would mean having one more container knocking around.

basically i have a 220litre water butt which is full of RO water at temperature. this has an airstone in it also to keep the water moving. what i was planning to do is extract this into 2 water carriers which both hold roughly 20-22litres each and mix that way BUT i do have a 100 litre container which i could sit to the side of the butt, this way i could cyphon water off into this add the calcium carobnate and leave a day or two in advance but this is goin to take room up in the garage.

all decisions but as you say its safer!

alternatively i try and find a PH buffer which is safer to use and i could mix into the RO, would be more expensive BUT if safer goes without saying safer

 

[markandjanice]

hi guys, right i also spent a lot of time over the weekend researching this and i also visited two fish shops, both totally agreed with what aquascaper found (as i previously said am not trusting or under mining your advice) i just thought it was good to share my findings.

they both actually said bicarb is fine however...blah blah blah and the one thing they both said was it is not STABLE!!!

one of the guys i spoke too has kept malawi cichlids for 15 years+ and actually visitied lake malawi and lake victoria on marine biology type travels so as close to an expert as i could find, he was very impressive but in the end showed me to a product called WATERLIFE BUFFER 8.3 which basically does everything.

he spent time explaining it all too me how it works, etc, etc and how much i will need and for the price of £7.50 it seemed a total no brainer.