I did my second addition of ammonia because my ammonia was at 0.5ppm. Now my nitrites and nitrates are through the roof, I can't even get a good measure on them! I did a 1 in 5 dilution (1mL tank water, 4 mL tap water that has no nitrites) and still got 2-5ppm (so that's likely 40-50 ppm) and my nitrates are between 80 and 160ppm (it's hard to tell with the color). My ammonia is at 0ppm again. Do I add a maintenance dose of ammonia after doing a partial water change? Or do a water change without adding ammonia?
Water Change To Dilute Nitrites And Nitrates Before Continuing Cycle?
- Thread starter cjheck
- Start date
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
What follows is based on using API (or similar) test kits.
You said: "I did my second addition of ammonia because my ammonia was at 0.5ppm." But where was your nitrite? The directions say: "If at any time you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia. "
A total of 6 ppm of ammonia will produce a max of 15.3 ppm. But the will be some nitrite bacs at work as they are building up, so you should not get that high. If 6 ppm of ammonia first turns 100% to nitrite and then that all turns to nitrate, the max. reading for that would be under 21 ppm. This would be increased by any ppm of nitrate that might be in your tap water. Since in the USA the EPA limits nitrate in drinking water is 44 ppm (10 ppm as NO3-N) the most nitrate you might have should be 63 ppm.
As you can see, your numbers are not possible as reported. Doing a diluted test in ml takes more accurate equip than most have. But I doubt you have this as somebody who does would know not to use tap water to do a diluted test.
More over, the cycling directions indicate you should be doing a series of test at given intervals, It also does not tell you to test for nitrate specifically but does say " The test for nitrate is the least needed and the least accurate, but it can be useful since the final product of the cycle is nitrate."
Here are my instructions for how to do diluted nitrite test although the method can be used for off the scale ammonia or nitrate testing as well.
[SIZE=13pt]Performing Diluted Nitrite Testing[/SIZE]
The problem with dealing with elevated nitrite is that the typical aquarium kits do not go high enough to let us know how much nitrite may really be in any tank. And this makes fish in cycling more complex and more work than fishless. You will likely need to know how to do diluted nitrite tests. For this you need a way to create an accurate mix of your tank water and some amount of pure water, i.e. distilled or reverse osmosis/deionized (ro/di) water. You should be able to find a gallon of distilled water in the supermarket. Some fish stores sell ro/di water. You will need a clean measuring cup as well. You will use this to mix different solutions of tank and pure water to be able to test for nitrite. You do not want to use your tap water for dilution purposes as it will often contain things that can cause test result be inaccurate.
The reason for using a measuring cup is that it is important to get the proportions of the mix as close to dead on as possible. The advantage of measuring using a cup from which you will only use a few ml is that the potential for mixing errors is way less of an issue in 8 ounces than in 5 or 10 ml of water. What you will do is start by making a 50/50 mix (4 ounces each) of tank and pure water. Then you pour 5 ml of this into the little test tube and do the nitrite test. You will then multiply the result of the test by 2 to get the actual ppm in your tank.
However if this 50/50 diluted test result is still at the kit's maximum level and the test kit reads to a maximum level of 8 ppm or less, you will have to do another further dilution. The easiest way is to start with ¼ cup of tank water and ¾ cup of pure water. Test this mix and multiply the result by 4 this time. Alternatively you can use ½ cup of the initial 50/50 mix and then add ½ cup of pure water to this. The result will be ¼ tank and ¾ pure water. If this test is also at the maximum number, don't worry about a further test, just do a huge water change (at least 50%) ASAP. After doing the water change, test for nitrite....
In your case the red line one must not cross is 16.4 ppm. I usually say stay under 15 to have some margin of error. Above this level will stall a cycle and rise much above it and bacteria can start to die. The level where this happens with ammonia is 6.4 ppm.
Remember- these numbers are for API and similar type test kits.
Having no more information that you have provide, I am not sure what is going or what you have done since you started, so I can't really offer a suggestion. If you can list the details from day 1 it would be most helpful.
You said: "I did my second addition of ammonia because my ammonia was at 0.5ppm." But where was your nitrite? The directions say: "If at any time you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia. "
A total of 6 ppm of ammonia will produce a max of 15.3 ppm. But the will be some nitrite bacs at work as they are building up, so you should not get that high. If 6 ppm of ammonia first turns 100% to nitrite and then that all turns to nitrate, the max. reading for that would be under 21 ppm. This would be increased by any ppm of nitrate that might be in your tap water. Since in the USA the EPA limits nitrate in drinking water is 44 ppm (10 ppm as NO3-N) the most nitrate you might have should be 63 ppm.
As you can see, your numbers are not possible as reported. Doing a diluted test in ml takes more accurate equip than most have. But I doubt you have this as somebody who does would know not to use tap water to do a diluted test.
More over, the cycling directions indicate you should be doing a series of test at given intervals, It also does not tell you to test for nitrate specifically but does say " The test for nitrate is the least needed and the least accurate, but it can be useful since the final product of the cycle is nitrate."
Here are my instructions for how to do diluted nitrite test although the method can be used for off the scale ammonia or nitrate testing as well.
[SIZE=13pt]Performing Diluted Nitrite Testing[/SIZE]
The problem with dealing with elevated nitrite is that the typical aquarium kits do not go high enough to let us know how much nitrite may really be in any tank. And this makes fish in cycling more complex and more work than fishless. You will likely need to know how to do diluted nitrite tests. For this you need a way to create an accurate mix of your tank water and some amount of pure water, i.e. distilled or reverse osmosis/deionized (ro/di) water. You should be able to find a gallon of distilled water in the supermarket. Some fish stores sell ro/di water. You will need a clean measuring cup as well. You will use this to mix different solutions of tank and pure water to be able to test for nitrite. You do not want to use your tap water for dilution purposes as it will often contain things that can cause test result be inaccurate.
The reason for using a measuring cup is that it is important to get the proportions of the mix as close to dead on as possible. The advantage of measuring using a cup from which you will only use a few ml is that the potential for mixing errors is way less of an issue in 8 ounces than in 5 or 10 ml of water. What you will do is start by making a 50/50 mix (4 ounces each) of tank and pure water. Then you pour 5 ml of this into the little test tube and do the nitrite test. You will then multiply the result of the test by 2 to get the actual ppm in your tank.
However if this 50/50 diluted test result is still at the kit's maximum level and the test kit reads to a maximum level of 8 ppm or less, you will have to do another further dilution. The easiest way is to start with ¼ cup of tank water and ¾ cup of pure water. Test this mix and multiply the result by 4 this time. Alternatively you can use ½ cup of the initial 50/50 mix and then add ½ cup of pure water to this. The result will be ¼ tank and ¾ pure water. If this test is also at the maximum number, don't worry about a further test, just do a huge water change (at least 50%) ASAP. After doing the water change, test for nitrite....
In your case the red line one must not cross is 16.4 ppm. I usually say stay under 15 to have some margin of error. Above this level will stall a cycle and rise much above it and bacteria can start to die. The level where this happens with ammonia is 6.4 ppm.
Remember- these numbers are for API and similar type test kits.
Having no more information that you have provide, I am not sure what is going or what you have done since you started, so I can't really offer a suggestion. If you can list the details from day 1 it would be most helpful.
I used tap water because I have previously tested my tap water and it contains no nitrites or nitrates. Are there other things in the tap water that effect this? Also, I have a 10 mL syringe that I used to measure the dilution volumes (I work in a lab doing dilutions, so I do know how to do these).
I haven't been good at writing everything down after about the first week. When I started up my tank about a month ago I added 10 mL of ammonia and had 2-3 ppm ammonia after testing. A week ago I added another 3 mL of ammonia, and tested to having about when the reading came down to about 0.5ppm. At that point I had no nitrite. I thought you didn't want to deplete your ammonia to avoid starving those bacteria, so I added it anyway (dumb mistake I guess). Since adding that in my nitrites have been climbing, in addition to my nitrates. Two days ago my nitrate was about 40ppm, and today it is a much, much darker red. I haven't added anything else since a week ago, but my ammonia has dropped.
I will try using a measuring cup instead.
Edit: I did a 1/4 tank vs 3/4 DI and a 1/2 tank vs 1/2 DI using a measuring cup. While it seems like I got a 2ppm for the 1/4 and a 5 ppm for the 1/2, it is very hard to decipher the purples up against the swatch, the don't really seem to match an particular color on the swatch, it's just a guess as to which it's closer to. I'm going to take a sample into PetsMart tomorrow and have them test it with the strips, at least it will give me a ball park even if it isn't 100%.
I haven't been good at writing everything down after about the first week. When I started up my tank about a month ago I added 10 mL of ammonia and had 2-3 ppm ammonia after testing. A week ago I added another 3 mL of ammonia, and tested to having about when the reading came down to about 0.5ppm. At that point I had no nitrite. I thought you didn't want to deplete your ammonia to avoid starving those bacteria, so I added it anyway (dumb mistake I guess). Since adding that in my nitrites have been climbing, in addition to my nitrates. Two days ago my nitrate was about 40ppm, and today it is a much, much darker red. I haven't added anything else since a week ago, but my ammonia has dropped.
I will try using a measuring cup instead.
Edit: I did a 1/4 tank vs 3/4 DI and a 1/2 tank vs 1/2 DI using a measuring cup. While it seems like I got a 2ppm for the 1/4 and a 5 ppm for the 1/2, it is very hard to decipher the purples up against the swatch, the don't really seem to match an particular color on the swatch, it's just a guess as to which it's closer to. I'm going to take a sample into PetsMart tomorrow and have them test it with the strips, at least it will give me a ball park even if it isn't 100%.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
I think the problem is too much nitrite from too much ammonia. As I noted, in the range of 16 ppm on an API kit it is at a level that harms cycling.
Hobby nitrate kits do not actually test nitrate, they actually convert it to nitrite and measure that. Therefore, when one has nitrite in their water then must also get the reading for this and then subtract it from the nitrate reading.
All sorts of things in the water can affect the test kit results. What depend on which test kit.
The bacteria are much hardier in many respects than most hobbyists realize. They are not so easy to kill. They do not need to be feed every day. This misconception is the most common cause of people deviating from cycling instructions re ammonia and then they end up with too much nitrite.
If you consider that each ppm of ammonia can become 2.55 ppm of nitrite, you can actually do the calculation yourself and know what might be the result. The reason the directions here state the 2nd dose of ammonia not be done unless ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm is to insure two things, The first is that the tank is processing ammonia but it is also to insure that this is not a testing mistake because it requires one see the nitrite too. The presence of the nitrite is as important as the drop in ammonia.
Also, if one follows the ammonia dosing correctly, it can not produce enough nitrite to become a problem. The regimen was specifically designed so that diluted nitrite testing would not be needed since it makes things much harder for most folks cycling their first tank. The method is pretty much foolproof unless one changes the ammonia dosing.
You have also discovered on of the biggest problems with using hobby test kits, the results are based on color and all of us can see the same result as a different color. Expensive test kits do not rely on the human eye to determine the level, they use a colorimeter to read the exact wavelengths. Anything that can effect the color can cause a bad reading. Some high grade test systems have instructions for how to deal with turbid water or water with iron in it. Theyalso include a list of what can cause testing errors and at what levels they will do so.
Test kits are a big help in giving us an idea of what is up in terms of the direction things are moving and to some extent simply detecting their presence. Where they tend to fall short is at the extremes. For example, very high nitrite can show up as 0 on a hobby kit or ammonia detoxifiers (often in our dechlor) can cause false positives of .25 or .5 ppm on ammonia tests.
This is one reason it can help to know what should be going on. For example if one doses a 3 ppm amount of ammonia and it appears to go down but no nitrite appears, a flag should go up. If a single ppm of that ammonia goes away, it should be making about 2.5 ppm of nitrite. If you test and get 5 ppm, a flag should go up. Too often when the numbers do not add up we ignore that and instead trust the test results anyway.
The best thing you can do here is a huge water change or two to get ammonia and nitrite levels as close to 0 as you can. Then wait at least 24 hours and test to be sure the numbers are down. Then redose the 3 ppm amount, If you have read the cycling article you should see it is recommends one lower the advertised capacity of a tank by 10-15% to allow for the glass and the decor/gravel. Wait another 24 and test for ammonia and nitrite (leave the nitrate kit in the box). The results here should show us where things stand.
What I would expect is the ammonia will have dropped, maybe even close to 0. First, this means you do have ammonia bacs, Second, it will let you calculate how much nitrite you should have by multiplying the ppm drop of ammonia by 2.55. Compare this number to your nitrite test result. Only 3 things can happen here and depending on which, you will know what is up:
1. If the numbers are close to equal, it means you have a fair amount of ammonia bacs but almost no nitrite bacs. You are still early in the cycle.
2. If the number is clearly lower for the actual test than the calculated one, this means you also have some nitrite bacs at work. You are midway through a cycle.
3. If the test result is clearly higher than the calculated number, it means one or more of the following: you have a bad kit, are testing incorrectly or are misreading the color.
Hopefully all of this will get you back on top of your cycle. keep us posted here.
Hobby nitrate kits do not actually test nitrate, they actually convert it to nitrite and measure that. Therefore, when one has nitrite in their water then must also get the reading for this and then subtract it from the nitrate reading.
All sorts of things in the water can affect the test kit results. What depend on which test kit.
The bacteria are much hardier in many respects than most hobbyists realize. They are not so easy to kill. They do not need to be feed every day. This misconception is the most common cause of people deviating from cycling instructions re ammonia and then they end up with too much nitrite.
If you consider that each ppm of ammonia can become 2.55 ppm of nitrite, you can actually do the calculation yourself and know what might be the result. The reason the directions here state the 2nd dose of ammonia not be done unless ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm is to insure two things, The first is that the tank is processing ammonia but it is also to insure that this is not a testing mistake because it requires one see the nitrite too. The presence of the nitrite is as important as the drop in ammonia.
Also, if one follows the ammonia dosing correctly, it can not produce enough nitrite to become a problem. The regimen was specifically designed so that diluted nitrite testing would not be needed since it makes things much harder for most folks cycling their first tank. The method is pretty much foolproof unless one changes the ammonia dosing.
You have also discovered on of the biggest problems with using hobby test kits, the results are based on color and all of us can see the same result as a different color. Expensive test kits do not rely on the human eye to determine the level, they use a colorimeter to read the exact wavelengths. Anything that can effect the color can cause a bad reading. Some high grade test systems have instructions for how to deal with turbid water or water with iron in it. Theyalso include a list of what can cause testing errors and at what levels they will do so.
Test kits are a big help in giving us an idea of what is up in terms of the direction things are moving and to some extent simply detecting their presence. Where they tend to fall short is at the extremes. For example, very high nitrite can show up as 0 on a hobby kit or ammonia detoxifiers (often in our dechlor) can cause false positives of .25 or .5 ppm on ammonia tests.
This is one reason it can help to know what should be going on. For example if one doses a 3 ppm amount of ammonia and it appears to go down but no nitrite appears, a flag should go up. If a single ppm of that ammonia goes away, it should be making about 2.5 ppm of nitrite. If you test and get 5 ppm, a flag should go up. Too often when the numbers do not add up we ignore that and instead trust the test results anyway.
The best thing you can do here is a huge water change or two to get ammonia and nitrite levels as close to 0 as you can. Then wait at least 24 hours and test to be sure the numbers are down. Then redose the 3 ppm amount, If you have read the cycling article you should see it is recommends one lower the advertised capacity of a tank by 10-15% to allow for the glass and the decor/gravel. Wait another 24 and test for ammonia and nitrite (leave the nitrate kit in the box). The results here should show us where things stand.
What I would expect is the ammonia will have dropped, maybe even close to 0. First, this means you do have ammonia bacs, Second, it will let you calculate how much nitrite you should have by multiplying the ppm drop of ammonia by 2.55. Compare this number to your nitrite test result. Only 3 things can happen here and depending on which, you will know what is up:
1. If the numbers are close to equal, it means you have a fair amount of ammonia bacs but almost no nitrite bacs. You are still early in the cycle.
2. If the number is clearly lower for the actual test than the calculated one, this means you also have some nitrite bacs at work. You are midway through a cycle.
3. If the test result is clearly higher than the calculated number, it means one or more of the following: you have a bad kit, are testing incorrectly or are misreading the color.
Hopefully all of this will get you back on top of your cycle. keep us posted here.
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