Water Change In Big Tanks

Pumping untreated tap water straight into your tank is not a very smart thing to do unless you predose the existing water in the tank first. :/
 
don't worry about the temp drop, someone once posted the exact science of it all and with an avergae change of 30% your temp will only drop 1/2 degrees at most. i just add dechlor on the hop, sometimes it's in the bucket, sometimes in the tank before/after the change. there's quite a bit of evidence that we don't actually need to use it and i went 2/3 years without using it on my first tank cos i never knew i had to, never had any problems so i don't see it as being that important. i do use it now but i'm not gonna have a heart attack if i forget or do it after or something. :)
 
If you tap ans chloramines then you definitely NEED to use water conditioner. Chloramines are much more stable than chlorine and stay in untreated water much longer.
 
If you tap ans chloramines then you definitely NEED to use water conditioner. Chloramines are much more stable than chlorine and stay in untreated water much longer.

i've heard a lot of evidence to the contrary of that. i've not been 100% convinced not to use it, but i'm not 100% convinced i need to either. just plodding on for now! just thought i'd say that's it's not all definate cos is isn't. I can't remember all the science behind it, sure if you search on here you'll find it though if you want to. :)
 
If you tap ans chloramines then you definitely NEED to use water conditioner. Chloramines are much more stable than chlorine and stay in untreated water much longer.
Actually, if the tap water has chloramines there is probably less need to use dechlorinator as the filter media can actually use the ammonia in the chloramine compound to feed on and grow. Below is a more detailed post from Bignose about this in a different thread:


Well, a quick perusal of the scientific literature came up with some rather surprising results.

Firstly, and most surprising to me, the problem ammonia oxidizing bacteria (AOB) and nitrite oxidizing bacteria (NOB) growing in water utilities' facilities is becoming a somewhat serious issue. The chloramine does in fact, promote the growth of AOB and NOB, with the consequences -- written is a nice non-threatening way as -- "...the addition of chloramines can lead to biological instability in a drinking water distribution system by promoting the growth of nitrifying bacteria..." and "The resulting reduction in chloramine residual and development of a microbial community in the distribution system lead to water quality deterioration and violation of drinking water regulations." I think that I might very well have put a little more emphasis on violations of the drinking water regulations.

Basically, because the AOB and NOB grow, they excrete other organic compounds allowing other bacteria to grow. At the very minimum, this additional bacteria will require more chloramine to kill it off, but then, more chloramine promotes more growth of AOB and NOB, and I think you can see where this cycle is going... Here is the really bad news, with this extra growth, all that stuff we don't want in there could grow now, like the coliform bacteria (E. coli -- think spinach), and viruses, and Guardia lamblia and so on. All of these are pretty strictly required to be below certain levels by the U.S. EPA, and similarly in other countries.

Secondly, the really interesting part is that in lab test after lab test, the recommended exposure times and concentrations of chloramines do their jobs. The chloramines in the lab kill off all the organics, including the AOB and NOB. However, at the utility side of the issue, nitrification episodes are rather commonplace. One recent study found 63% of U.S. chloramining utilities and 64% of Southern Australian utilities tested positive for nitrifying bacteria.

One hypothesis for the discrepancy between the laboratory studies and operating results is that there are AOB strains
growing in full-scale systems that possess a greater chloramine resistance than those studied in the kinetic experiments. Whether the AOB strains used in earlier kinetic studies are representative of significant strains involved in full-scale nitrification episodes has not been confirmed, since there are no published evaluations of AOB diversity in chloraminated distribution systems.

This quote, and the above ones, from Regan, Harrington, and Noguera: "Ammonia- and Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacterial Communities in a Pilot-Scale Chloraminated Drinking Water Distribution System" Applied and Enviromental Microbiology 2002. The study where the %'s came from was Wolfe et al. "Occurrence of nitrification in chloranimated distribution systems" Journal (American Water Works Association), 1996

In other words, the strains that are in the water utilities have become more resistant to chloramines, and can indeed use the ammonia present as sustenance.

And, back to fishtanks, where do the AOB and NOB come from in the first place? Well, if you used tap water, they probably came from your water utility, and if a resistant strain has grown there... that same chloramine resistant strain is probably now growing in your tank too. The Regan et al. study cited above and Regan et al. "Diversity of nitrifying bacteria in full-scale cloranimated distribution systems" Water Research, 2003, was among the first to use DNA sequencing to distinguish all the different AOB and NOB that are growing. Some of the names should be pretty familiar: AOBs Nitrosospira, Nm. oligotropha and NOBs Nitrospira, Nitrobacter

So, it seems that AOB and so on can become resistant, or at the very least, as mentioned in the above posts, the chloramine levels are certainly not designed to sterilize a colony of bacteria as large in number as we culture in our tanks and so chloraminated water probably is not going to ruin a fishtank.

All that said, I think I am still going to continue to use my conditioner. It is pretty cheap, and better safe than sorry. However, I am not going to fret if I forget, or if a water change is due up and I haven't been to the LFS lately to get a new bottle.

Oh, and of course, I will now be nice and worried about our water supply.
 
you all know that debates like these will never be won.... someone says one thing, then someone else comes back with a different idea...people form sides and then just go back and forth stating which is the correct way to do it.....
 
If you tap ans chloramines then you definitely NEED to use water conditioner. Chloramines are much more stable than chlorine and stay in untreated water much longer.
Actually, if the tap water has chloramines there is probably less need to use dechlorinator as the filter media can actually use the ammonia in the chloramine compound to feed on and grow. Below is a more detailed post from Bignose about this in a different thread:

Any person with basic fishkeeping knowledge already knows that dechloriminators breaks up the chlorine/ammonia bonds freeing the ammonia and chlorine. Last time I checked chlorine and ammonia are toxic to fish that's why you want to DETOXIFY the ammonia component and remove the chlorine when doing water changes so that it doesn't burn the fishes gills. Detoxifying ammonia sill doesn't remove it so if you're cycling a tank the bacteria can still use it. However why would you want to add ammonia in an already cycled tank through the water change? Why would you want to add chlorine? :huh:
 
If you tap ans chloramines then you definitely NEED to use water conditioner. Chloramines are much more stable than chlorine and stay in untreated water much longer.
Actually, if the tap water has chloramines there is probably less need to use dechlorinator as the filter media can actually use the ammonia in the chloramine compound to feed on and grow. Below is a more detailed post from Bignose about this in a different thread:

Any person with basic fishkeeping knowledge already knows that dechloriminators breaks up the chlorine/ammonia bonds freeing the ammonia and chlorine. Last time I checked chlorine and ammonia are toxic to fish that's why you want to DETOXIFY the ammonia component and remove the chlorine when doing water changes so that it doesn't burn the fishes gills. Detoxifying ammonia sill doesn't remove it so if you're cycling a tank the bacteria can still use it. However why would you want to add ammonia in an already cycled tank through the water change? Why would you want to add chlorine? :huh:


Scientific studies, as well as advances in testing, can sometimes sway your opinion on how commonly thought things work. The sodium thiosulfate component of dechlorinators eliminates chlorine, and breaks the chlorine/ammonia bond in chloramine, leaving you with ammonia. You dechlorinators that state that the remove chlorine & chloramine do that, and are usually nothing but sodium thiosulfate. This leaves you with ammonia.

Your dechlors that remove chlorine, chloramine, and ammonia also neutralize ammonia by converting it to ammonium, which is used just like ammonia by your bio filtration, but is harmless to your fish. Sodium hydromethane sulfinate does this little trick; it's the main component in Ammo-Lock.

Many people get by just fine with the dechlors that use only sodium thiosulfate, even though their water contains chloramines. The amount of chloramines, maturity of the tanks bio filtration, as well as the percentage of water changes has much to do with this. I can get by with sodium thio in the summer, when there are fewer additives to the tap water. Yes, my water contains chloramines. My bio filtration takes care of it. This is with larger water changes, 50% or better. In the winter I use Prime, I use it all year long with younger angel fry.

This is where I wish I could find the link that Bignose gave me, to the site where they had a long running topic concerning not using any dechlor with water containing chlorine & chloramine. Apparently the same bacteria that convert chloramines into its components, that exist in your water supply system, eventually establish themselves in your tank, given time. Folks had posted chlorine & chloramines levels in their tap water, then tested the tank after a water change immediately after, then after a bit of time. After a few minutes, if I remember correctly, the levels had started to drop, and were at zero shortly after that.

This goes against most everything that is taught & passed along concerning water additives and aquatics, but makes sense in the respect that this is something municipal water suppliers deal with on a daily basis. This is something I plan on looking into personally, once I have the time & pick up a chlorine test. I was just as skeptical as you at first, but tried a short test on some angels, around 50 or so, 8 or 10 weeks old, in a 29. I did a 50% water change, no dechlor, and sat & watched. I got bored after about 2 hours, and not having a chlorine test, added dechlor & went on to do something else. These fish did fine afterwards, I’ve kept a few to see if there are any long-term results.
 
Pesonally i prefer safe than sorry. Also some conditioners do more than just detoxify the chlorine and ammonia. They also remove heavy metals and provide a slime coating for the fish. :)
 
Pesonally i prefer safe than sorry. Also some conditioners do more than just detoxify the chlorine and ammonia. They also remove heavy metals and provide a slime coating for the fish. :)


No doubt. I'm not about to start doing all my water changes on all my tanks without treating the water, but it would be something interesting to try. I've got the tank space for a little bit at least, and a chlorine test kit on my list of things to do this weekend.

Heavy metals are usually more of a problem with well water, EDTA chelates them, making them harmless. I don't trust what has been dumped into my water supply, Lake Michigan, for the last couple hundred years. A strong storm churns the bottom, nasty stuff.

Fish produce their own slime coat, the ones that advertize this include a minor amount of a slight irritant designed to promote slime coat. While this is a good thing to some extent, as the fish's slime coat is it's main defense against diseases & injury, too much can have an affect on the gills.
 

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