Very High Ammonia

[Trina]

Tank size: 5 gallon hex NEW tank filled with water, rinsed gravel, fake plants, and fake cave on 3/16. Added 3 small fish on 3/18 and 2 ADF on 3/19. Please see below for more details.
pH: 6.8-6.9
ammonia: 8.0 ppm this morning. Ammonia history: 3/18=0, 3/25=2.0 ppm, 3/27=4.0 ppm. 3/29=4.0 ppm. 4/1=8.0 ppm, 4/4=8.0 ppm, 4/6=8.0 ppm
nitrite: 0, has never read anything but 0
nitrate:0
kH: don't know
gH: don't know
tank temp: 78 F right now. I live in the U.S. south, so the water nevers gets below about 72 F. The range is about 72-80 F.

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior): Fish and frogs all seem fine, no symptoms, they are active and eating well. They all seem to be hardy little creatures. However, I am worried b/c the ammonia won't seem to go down, and the nitrites refuse to appear.

Volume and Frequency of water changes: I have been changing at least 20% of water daily for about 7 days, before that I changed at least 20% every other day for about a week. I vacuumed gravel last Friday, yesterday, and today. A lot of gunk came up today in the vacuum. I think I initially overfeed, but have been very sparing for about 10 days.

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: I use API stuff. I used API Ammo Lock on 3/25 and 3/27. So, maybe the ammonia is locked up and that's why my readings won't come down? I use Stress Coat with water changes (let the water sit for at least 24 hours to age and get room temp). I have been adding Stress Zyme 2/week or so to try to jump start cycle. I have used Proper pH to get water to exactly 7 a couple of times, but stopped since my water is close to neutral anyway. I used Accu Clear last week to combat a cloudiness problem--didn't seem to help, PWC helped and tank cleared in about 2-3 days. I am somewhat ticked off with API b/c their web site stresses that they will help you and they even give you an e-form to fill out, but they have refused to answer my 2 e-mail help requests. Why promise help when you won't deliver it? But I digress. . .

Tank inhabitants: 3 zebra danios and 2 ADF. Yes, I know the danios are not good for this tank as they need more swimming room. I'm a newbie, and I made a mistake and I realize that now. I have a nice LFS that is willing to take them and not destroy them (like the chain place where I bought them said they would do). The LFS guy said to wait for the cycle to be done before I bring them in.

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): Just 2 fake plants and a little fake cave for the frogs. Have been in there before the livestock.

Exposure to chemicals: None?

Digital photo (include if possible): Don't have a camera. Sorry. Tank looks pretty clear. Maybe a few particles right now as I just gravel vacuumed. Fish actively swimming, frogs hunting for food and playing like they do every day.

Thanks for reading this long post. I appreciate any help I can get.

 

[Underwurlde]

New tank, so first question, has your filter cycled yet???

Explain EXACTLY how much & how often you feed your fish.

8.0ppm is a measurement of the amount of NH3/NH4 in the water, i.e. BOTH toxic Ammonia and non toxic Ammonium. With a temp of 25° & ph of 6.9 means that approximately 0.08% of that reading is actually TOXIC Ammonia, i.e. toxic ammonia levels are actually at 0.0064ppm. Anything greater than 0.02ppm is deadly and you are a factor of only 3 from this and hence I'd agree, you have dangerously high levels of ammonia in the tank - for now I'd say that this is because your filters are new and have not cycled, in other words there are no nitrifying bacteria growing in them that would otherwise munch this ammonia into Nitrite and then Nitrate.

Your constant water changes are the best you can do for now until your filters mature enough say in about 2 months time.

Andy

PS
Stop wasting your time / money trying to get that 'perfect; pH. Reallly, there is no need. The ONLY 'chemical' I add to my tank is Tetra Aqua Safe that is used to remove the Chlorine that would otherwise kill my Nitrifying Filter Bacteria.

 

[Trina]

New tank, so first question, has your filter cycled yet???

Explain EXACTLY how much & how often you feed your fish.

8.0ppm is a measurement of the amount of NH3/NH4 in the water, i.e. BOTH toxic Ammonia and non toxic Ammonium. With a temp of 25° & ph of 6.9 means that approximately 0.08% of that reading is actually TOXIC Ammonia, i.e. toxic ammonia levels are actually at 0.0064ppm. Anything greater than 0.02ppm is deadly and you are a factor of only 3 from this and hence I'd agree, you have dangerously high levels of ammonia in the tank - for now I'd say that this is because your filters are new and have not cycled, in other words there are no nitrifying bacteria growing in them that would otherwise munch this ammonia into Nitrite and then Nitrate.

Your constant water changes are the best you can do for now until your filters mature enough say in about 2 months time.

Andy

I feed about 3 flakes of fish food and 2-3 frog bites once a day. I did not feed yesterday. I have been feeding this amout since 3/27. For the first week I fed approximately twice this amount.

I assume my filter has not cycled as I have no readings other than ammonia.

 

[Mikaila31]

Also if you can get some media from a all ready cycled tank you can jump start you tank and it will cycle faster.

 

[Underwurlde]

Good, you are not over feeding then...

If you do have access to a mature tank, i.e. one that has been running successfully for about 6 months & is disease free, then we can talk about 'seeding your filters / substrate' with something called 'mulum'.

Andy

 

[Trina]

Good, you are not over feeding then...

If you do have access to a mature tank, i.e. one that has been running successfully for about 6 months & is disease free, then we can talk about 'seeding your filters / substrate' with something called 'mulum'.

Andy

Is it OK to skip a day every now and then (say feed 2 days, skip a day, feed 2 days, and so on) while this ammonia thing is going on?

Unfortunately, I don't really have access to a mature tank. There are only chain stores here (no help there), and 2 LFS--in one store some of the tanks look rather nasty, and the other seems nice, but not very approachable in terms of asking for something like this.

What else can I do?

 

[Underwurlde]

Just feed as normal. You are doing nothing wrong there & at that amount I'd be feeding once daily.

See the pinned topic on 'Cycling with fish'.

GL

Andy

 

[Trina]

Just feed as normal. You are doing nothing wrong there & at that amount I'd be feeding once daily.

See the pinned topic on 'Cycling with fish'.

GL

Andy

Thank you for the help.

I've been reading about cycling. Can you please give me just a ballpark/estimate timeframe when I might expect to see the ammonia start to drop?

I take it that I should continue with the daily PW changes?

 

[Underwurlde]

I've been reading about cycling. Can you please give me just a ballpark/estimate timeframe when I might expect to see the ammonia start to drop?

Difficult to say, but like I mentioned above about 2 months. Don't be worried, same happened to me, I did a fishless cycle and all went well although some would argue that ANY ammonia is permenantly bad for fish - I would say that if fish are in water then there will be an inevitable level of ammonia too - the idea is to keep it to an absolute minimum.

I take it that I should continue with the daily PW changes?

Yes, but have a read of the pinned topic on Cycling with fish.

Andy

 

[Trina]

I've been reading about cycling. Can you please give me just a ballpark/estimate timeframe when I might expect to see the ammonia start to drop?

Difficult to say, but like I mentioned above about 2 months. Don't be worried, same happened to me, I did a fishless cycle and all went well although some would argue that ANY ammonia is permenantly bad for fish - I would say that if fish are in water then there will be an inevitable level of ammonia too - the idea is to keep it to an absolute minimum.

I take it that I should continue with the daily PW changes?

Yes, but have a read of the pinned topic on Cycling with fish.

Andy

I've searched for that specific topic title and can't find it. Do you have a link? I have read 3 other articles about fishy cycling on this forum. I take it that I have to be patient, test daily, change water daily, and feed sparingly.


Do I have too many fish in there? Should I go ahead and take the danios back (since they are going back eventually) and just do this my frogs? Would decreasing the bio load help? How about frogs and maybe a mellow male betta (one that I observed at a LFS community tank who looks like he wouldn't hurt the frogs)?

Thank you so much for your help. I have tried to get help on another forum and basically was made to feel stupid.

 

[rdd1952]

I'm not certain if there is a pinned topic on cycling with fish. I couldn't find it either. Really all you can do though is water changes to lower the ammonia. I'm sure your ammonia was much higher than 8 and that is the highest readng on the card. I would step up the water changes to 30% twice a day until you get the ammonia below 1 ppm. I don't know why you don't have some nitrite by now. After 2+ weeks, there should be some for sure.

The ammo-lock is definitely the reason your fish are still doing fine. It turns ammonia into ammonium which is non-toxic. I would continue to use it as directed. Also use dechlorinator as normal. As for the rest of the chemicals, throw them all in the trash. I assume the API "stuff" you are talking about is Stress Zyme. It is useless and the label says it is an "aid" in cycling. I've yet to figure out what that means. Using pH adjusters is probably the worst thing you can do for your fish. Most all fish can adjust to any STABLE pH but struggle with one in constant swing and using pH adjusters will cause that.

I see you mentioned the water temp never getting below 72 degrees. Do you not have a heater in the tank? Bacteria grow better at higher temperatures. If your water is dropping into the low 70s, you bacteria growth will be slow (or non-existent). I would definitely get a heater and raise it up to about 80 degrees.

Last but not least, I would indeed take the danios back and finish doing a fishless cycle. They definitely aren't suited for the tank and since you already know you are going to return them, the sooner the better.

 

[Underwurlde]

I could have sworn there was a pinned topic on Cycling with fish. Apologies then! (@rdd1952, definately one needed then, hint hint).

If it turns out that you can't take your fish back, just monitor your water stats on a daily basis & change water to keep levels under control. Your ammonia should rise then fall, followed by a rise & fall in Nitrite and then by a rise & fall in Nitrate - this would indicate the end of the cycling process.

GL

Andy

 

[Trina]

I could have sworn there was a pinned topic on Cycling with fish. Apologies then! (@rdd1952, definately one needed then, hint hint).

If it turns out that you can't take your fish back, just monitor your water stats on a daily basis & change water to keep levels under control. Your ammonia should rise then fall, followed by a rise & fall in Nitrite and then by a rise & fall in Nitrate - this would indicate the end of the cycling process.

GL

Andy

Thanks for the help and encouragement. I changed out about 50% water on Saturday and another 30% this morning. The ammonia reading has gone down to between 1-2 ppm on the color chart (an in between color). Still no nitrites. I'm going to keep changing out the water every day, test, and re-test.

I'm taking back the danios sometime this week (as my work and school schedule allows).

Thanks again.

 

[rdd1952]

I'm can't quite figure why you aren't seeing any bacteria development. Since you have no nitrite or nitrate, the ammonia is not being processed at all. The ammo-lock shouldn't be an issue. It doesn't remove it, only change it to a non-toxic form until it can be broken down by the bacteria. Hopefully, it will start happening soon.

 

[Trina]

I'm can't quite figure why you aren't seeing any bacteria development. Since you have no nitrite or nitrate, the ammonia is not being processed at all. The ammo-lock shouldn't be an issue. It doesn't remove it, only change it to a non-toxic form until it can be broken down by the bacteria. Hopefully, it will start happening soon.

Hey,

I'm in NC too (outside of Chapel Hill--GO HEELS!).

I don't know why I'm not cycling either. I'm trying to do everything right, but I do make the newbie errors.

I have been adding API Stress Zyme, but it doesn't seem to be doing a thing. Do you have any suggestions re. another bio starter type thing?