Uv Filters

Euston

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Hi, are these UV filters as good as they are said to be?

Do they really help with algae and bacterial issues?

I do not understand how this could be true but hope somebody could maybe help me out?
 
Hi, are these UV filters as good as they are said to be?

Do they really help with algae and bacterial issues?

I do not understand how this could be true but hope somebody could maybe help me out?

they can help with algae, but control of light is the real solution. they can also help with bacterial infections, but they are not the solution. to get rid of bacteria you need to treat the whole tank at once. something no uv unit can do.

as a solution to a specific problem, they are fine. but they just waste money if left on all the time.
 
Hello,

To state that these units "just waste money if left on all the time" is opinion only. I would take views like this with a "pinch of salt". To be fair to the poster, I would also wish that you would view my personal opinions in the same way. Have a look at other threads regarding UV on this and other forums, speak to people who use them, search the internet and make up your own mind.

I am fully convinced as to the effectivness of UV and have them on all of my tanks. I view them as primarily a preventitive tool. Other peoples opinions do vary, some see them as virtually pointless while some use them for specific reasons (e.g. algae control, bacteria reduction etc.).

I know of quite a few people who use UV and are as equally convinced of their effectiveness as me.
The thing to remember is that UV will not cure a sick fish, but may (in conjunction with good practices) have prevented this fish from becoming ill in the first place.

Hopefully, others will state their own opinions...

Bodge99
 
Hello,

To state that these units "just waste money if left on all the time" is opinion only. I would take views like this with a "pinch of salt". To be fair to the poster, I would also wish that you would view my personal opinions in the same way. Have a look at other threads regarding UV on this and other forums, speak to people who use them, search the internet and make up your own mind.

I am fully convinced as to the effectivness of UV and have them on all of my tanks. I view them as primarily a preventitive tool. Other peoples opinions do vary, some see them as virtually pointless while some use them for specific reasons (e.g. algae control, bacteria reduction etc.).

I know of quite a few people who use UV and are as equally convinced of their effectiveness as me.
The thing to remember is that UV will not cure a sick fish, but may (in conjunction with good practices) have prevented this fish from becoming ill in the first place.

Hopefully, others will state their own opinions...

Bodge99

whilst i fully accept your conviction, what evidence do you have? remembering that, unless you have a control tank. you, really, have no idea what make your tank so good. come to that, the colour of the stand would be just as likly to have caused its good health.

there is no denying how effective it is against algae. however that is caused by excess light, and nothing else. so after you have cleared it, with your UV. modifying your lighting regime, will control any further outbreaks, even without your UV.

as a treatment for infection. well, as it does not do a "whole tank" treatment. whilst it is an effective aid. it can not be a "total solution". that would need meds. much the same goes for treating ICK.

our tanks also carry other bacteria,( and no. i am not talking about cycled bacteria, of which there is very little). not all is bad. indeed some form the film we call "mature" on surfaces in our tanks . UV is indiscriminate, killing both good and bad (lets face it. the last thing you need in our tank is, sterile water.)
 
IMO for various reasons I would not use a UV light, opinions are opinions. This is simply what I have decided for after weighing pros and cons. Basically its not needed, but you can use one if you want.
 
See:

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.html

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=21

I've never said that these units are a total solution... Just keep an open mind and look for yourself.

Prevention is better than cure and I'm convinced of these units effectiveness..

Bodge99
 
what evidence do you have?

I imagine he can say the same back to you. Like you said though unless there is a control tank where conditions are the same as say an average non UV setup is we won't really know.

However... In my personal opinion if I was actually happy to run a UV light all the time or even for a few hours a day perhaps on the night time or something along those lines I would certainly do so. However I'm trying to cut down electricity usage and I would have no where to put one.
 
what evidence do you have?

I imagine he can say the same back to you. Like you said though unless there is a control tank where conditions are the same as say an average non UV setup is we won't really know.

However... In my personal opinion if I was actually happy to run a UV light all the time or even for a few hours a day perhaps on the night time or something along those lines I would certainly do so. However I'm trying to cut down electricity usage and I would have no where to put one.

actually, very much my view. though i have found no evidence, though admittedly many opinions, that running a UV full time has any
effect. i, personally, think that running one will do no harm. equally there is no evidence it will not.

I do not argue the effectiveness of these units. they are very useful. (I bought and used one to clear an acquaintances tank. it worked extremely well. but the algae did not come back after the unit was removed. now unless you remove the unit. you will never know if it worked, because it killed all the excess spores. or because it continues to remove them.) but to suggest they are an "essential" part of freshwater fishkeeping, or even "preferable". has no basis whatsoever.

as you say
I'm trying to cut down electricity usage
not to mention replacement tubes. wouldn't it be best to find out, if, running them full-time. actually as any effect, or is it just "burning pennies?
 
See:

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.html

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=21

Both of these websites are also attempting to get one to buy a UV sterilizer. That's doesn't mean that their information is wrong, but it definitely is unbiased.

Regarding the larger question, this has been debated very recently.

Many of the facts remain the same:

1) A UV cannot treat the entire tank volume at once. This is because only a small volume of tank water that is treated at any one time.

The result of this is that UV cannot completely remove 100% of a microbe infecting a tank.

The concentrations of microbes in a tank is described by the following equation: dc/dt = B - D. dc/dt = change in concentration of microbe. B is birth rate. D is death rate. In words the equation is:

The change in concentration of the microbe is equal to the rate of births minus the rate of deaths. If the rate of deaths is greater than the rate of births, the concentration does down, etc.

A UV can significantly increase D, the rate of deaths. But, so long as there is a finite B, birth rate, then the concentration will never be zero. Indicating that a UV alone cannot ever completely cure a tank of the infection.

As such, I think a UV can be a useful tool to initially treat an infection and decimate the population. Then, as a second step, remove the UV, and then use medication that can treat the entire tank and completely kill off the microbe.

In fact, a UV can give you a false sense of security of having a disease beaten, when it may just be residing at asymptomatic levels because the population is small but non-zero. Then, if the UV is turned off (because of a power cut) or you just stop using it, you may really wonder where this disease came from. It may very well have been in the tank the whole time, and only had a chance to grow when the UV stopped killing off 95% of it.

2) There is a significant cost in replacement bulbs and electricity. And, for the bulbs to have intensity enough to kill microbes, they have to the replaced before they burn out. Usually they lose microbe-killing effectiveness in a matter of months.

3) With good use of a quarantine tank, the amount of infectious microbes being introduced to the tank should be very, very small.

This is for two reasons. A) Almost all the microbes that attack fish, have to have fish in their life cycle to survive. That is, unless a microbe swimming around in the water finds a fish to parasatize off of, it will die. A good example is ich. If ich in its free swimming stage does not find a fish to latch onto, the ich microbe will die.

There are a very, very few fish diseases that can lay dormant. In the marine world, crypto is one. But, it is very, very few.

So, know that there aren't fish swimming about in the water at your water company and there aren't fish swimming about in your underground water well. Because there aren't fish there, your water source has what really amounts to a zero percent chance of containing fish-attacking microbes. The conclusion is then that most microbes that attack our fish are introduced.

So, this leads to the second reason B) if you quarantine any new additions for a long enough period of time, any diseases they could have would show themselves and you can treat the q-tank and make sure that the diseases don't make it into your main tank. Long enough, in my opinion, is on the order of 6 weeks. And, it also means that if you buy live plants and the water the plants were stored in is shared with the fish at your LFS, you need to quarantine plants too. Plants could be carrying fish diseases, but again, if they sit in the q-tank without fish, the fish-attacking microbes will die. The same with other non-fish creatures like snails or shrimp. They could be carries for something like ich, even though they cannot get ich themselves.

Obviously, there is a cost in running a q-tank. But, you don't need to run it continuously, and a q-tank can be ran very cheaply. It really only needs to be a large plastic tub, a heater, and a simple small filter, like a sponge filter. Just set up and tear down as you bring in new fish.

------------------------------------------------

Because there are other effective means of preventing infections from getting into your tank, I just don't see a need to run a UV full time. I think that they can be a very useful tool to have if an infection breaks out. Hook one up and run it for 2 or 3 days to really decimate the population of infective microbes and knock their population levels down. But, then turn it back off and use effective medication to finish off the job. A UV can be the 1 in this 1-2 punch. The medication will be more effective because there won't be as many microbes that will need to be killed. You may also not need to medicate for as long.

All that said, if you use a q-tank correctly, you won't ever need the 1 in the 1-2 punch, because you won't have infections in the first place. Q tanks can be very effective. As a simple example, I've quarantines for many, many years, and I've never had a disease in my main tanks. I've had ich infect fish in a quarantine tank before, but never has ich in a main tank. The really great thing is that because I only had to treat the q-tank, I needed 1/10th the medicine to cure the fish. I.e. instead of treating 50 gallons, I only had to treat 5.

Lastly, UV sterilizers for fishtanks are relatively recent invention. Think about how long people have been keeping fish and never needed them before. There isn't any compelling reason that they are suddenly needed now. All of the above information tells me that they are a luxury item. Yeah, they can do some good some of the time. But, they certainly aren't needed 100% of the time, and running them 100% of the time doesn't seem like a good use of money to me.
 
Prevention is better than cure and I'm convinced of these units effectiveness..

Bodge99

There are various ways for prevention. If you put healthy fish in a healthy tank and properly maintain that tank they should not get sick. If they do something is wrong. Using UV to mask the issue is not "preventative". Getting an algae bloom then adding UV to the tank is a treatment that kills the algae. It doesn't solve any of the problems as to why the algae was there in the first place. Algae means something is wrong with the tank, simply killing the algae does not fix the problem that caused it. Also a good quality fish has good breeding as well as good resistance to stress, disease, and environmental changes. Fish getting sick means something is wrong, treating the problem and treating its cause are very different things. Though your first source is very well written and elaborate. It does not really provide much for data. Everything he stated can be affected by water changes and proper maintenance first and foremost. I am glad you are convinced of their effectiveness, because I certainly am not. The article at best provides some weak correlations and gives no data. Like the change or effect on Redox potential by UV light compared to water changes. Effect on health of fish compared to use or non-use of UV light. There are statements made about this but at the same time no real data to back it up. What also matters is the degree of effect/ correlation. Just because you run a experiment and there is a correlation in the data and number it is not simply true. A very important test for validating hypothesis and comparing data is a T-test. It basically tells you if any correlations or non-correlations of your data are significant. He also goes into UVC light, since your have a UV sterilizer I assume you understand there is UVA, UVB, and UVC light when you break down UV light. Not all sterilizers provide UVC light, depending on the bulb. Also if a unit is not properly setup and maintained, also changed with a PROPER bulb you will quickly lose any benefits it might have. Also his sources could be better. Some are good, but some make totally irrelevant points. For example This is linked from your first source. Which quotes another source that doesn't really provide any data on that statement. There is also a HUGE discrepancy here. UVC treatments with humans irradiate the BLOOD right after they state that UV sterilizers cannot reach the fish internally. HUGE difference, the two are completely unrelated. Also crystal clear water is not hard to get IMO. It can be done in a regular filtered tank, an unfiltered tank w/ flow, and a tank that is completely stagnant.
 
Good post Mikaila31
 
People seem to be missing my point here somewhat. My personal use of UV is not to "mask" any problems, however caused, in any of my tanks. The statement that healthy fish "should not get sick" is logically true but erronous in practice. Fish **do** get sick, and not always by easily identifiable causes.

The irony of the typical negative posts regarding UV (to me, anyway) is that this is the exact stance that I used to have. I used to give the exact same arguments and had derived similar conclusions as these posters.

What changed my point of view entirely was having to endure the complete loss of a tank of fish due to an overwhelming bacterial infection. It was heartbreaking watching valued pets suffering and dying. I would not want anyone to go through this experience ever and I certainly never want to witness a repeat.

I can hear you thinking "novice fish keeper... doesn't know what he is doing".. etc. etc.

I learnt my skills from two fishkeepers who have a combined experience in this hobby exceeding 70 years. One is actually a commercial breeder in his day job and the other is an award winning guppy breeder. They were both unable to do anything to save any of my fish. This experience lead me to research UV. A couple of years of experience using it has shown (to me) the other (albeit relatively trivial) advantanges from using these units. My primary reason for using them is to **minimise** the chance of a similar overwhelming bacterial infection **ever** occuring again.

If my point of view can help someone inquiring about UV seek other opinions and look a bit deeper into the subject then my time spent typing this has been well spent.

Your points regarding the weakness of arguments in the links given is well taken. These were given as a starting point for the OP to examine... and research further..

Bodge99
 
bodge,

I've just never seen a compelling reason to have one running 100% of the time, in terms of the significant additional cost in bulbs and electricity.

Mystery diseases do happen, but they are still introduced somewhere somehow. Fish do not spontaneously get sick. A bacterial, or viral, or microbial agent had to be introduced with water, or with new fish or new plants or something. There is a reason fish get sick. And, in an overwhelming amount of time, the introduction could have been prevented with better husbandry, including a q-tank.

And, the simple truth is that many, many people keep perfectly healthy tanks without a UV sterilizer.

If someone chooses to spend the money on this luxury item, that is fine. But, it will not change my mind that it is nonetheless a luxury item.
 

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