Urgent Help Needed - One dead new fish see below image.

[Byron]

Thanks. I went out and got some rock. How long until that raises the PH? I guess when it raises a certain level it stops raising due to less acidity? 24 hours? I am assuming im going to have to cycle the tank again or do the good bacteria still work under 6 PH?
Thanks
Ben

I do not agree with this, you are only likely making things worse. But we need to back up and determine a few things before you can know what (if anything) needs doing re the pH.

First, do you know the pH of the store's tank water? I've seen nothing in this thread indicating it is higher than yours, and if the water supply is the same for the store and your home, chances are there is no pH issue.

Barbs come from soft water, and this has a lower pH (on the acidic side, below 7.0) so long-term there is no problem. If there was initial shock, you/we need to sort this out.

Any time you start fiddling with water parameters no matter how you are setting up another level of possible problems. Knowing the GH/KH/pH of the source water and using this without any changes (just using a water conditioner at water changes) will allow the water chemistry to be normal and that means more stable long-term.

 

[Byron]

Hi. Went to the shop to ask these questions. He said that Harrogate water is too acidic to run his business so uses a mechanical system that makes his tap water Neutral. So lets say 8PH and my tank is about 5 at the least. Thats a huge swing for any fish I think, too much. Bought a coral rock to raise it slowly. Put it under the filter intake so hopefully that raises it and no more fish die lol. If they do its back to the drawing board... OR its too late for the fish due to the shock of the PH. Time will tell. Thanks for commenting

I posted #45 before I was aware of this post. But continuing from what I said in that post...how do you know the shop's tanks are at pH 8? Neutral would be around 7.0 pH.

 

[Ben2522]

I do not agree with this, you are only likely making things worse. But we need to back up and determine a few things before you can know what (if anything) needs doing re the pH.

First, do you know the pH of the store's tank water? I've seen nothing in this thread indicating it is higher than yours, and if the water supply is the same for the store and your home, chances are there is no pH issue.

Barbs come from soft water, and this has a lower pH (on the acidic side, below 7.0) so long-term there is no problem. If there was initial shock, you/we need to sort this out.

Any time you start fiddling with water parameters no matter how you are setting up another level of possible problems. Knowing the GH/KH/pH of the source water and using this without any changes (just using a water conditioner at water changes) will allow the water chemistry to be normal and that means more stable long-term.

Hi Byron. Thanks for replying. So I went to the fish shop. my PH is around 5-5.4. The shop owner said he uses some sort of filter system to raise it to around 7.5-8PH before it goes into the tanks. He does not use the tap water here in Harrogate because its to acidic for most of his fish and the rest of the country. Bloody spa town lol. The other barbs from the same tank at the shop, none of them have died since i bought these. I opted to go for coral rock instead of anything crushed or bottled because I thought that more a natural and slow burn option. but no wonder the fish were dieing. Going from 7-8PH down to 5ph after 30 minuits temperate acclimatisation... From what I have read also its not just about what the species prefers, its about what they were raised in(within reason of course)? Lets say they were raised from birth in 7PH, surley thats now their preferred? Let me know your thoughts.

 

[Ben2522]

I posted #45 before I was aware of this post. But continuing from what I said in that post...how do you know the shop's tanks are at pH 8? Neutral would be around 7.0 pH.

Hi again. No worries. The owner of the store told me he keeps them at about 7-8PH thats all i can go off. I guess regardless, 7PH dropped to 5 is quite a big deal? I didnt make him test the water in front of me. He uses some sort of machine to do this he said. I feel from what others have said here that it could be PH shock from what I have been reading.

 

[seangee]

@Byron expressed that better than me though. Your fish have already been through the shock. Changing it back won't make it any better for your existing fish. Since they are now in their natral habitat it wold be best to keep it that way.

 

[Byron]

First, I would weant to know exactly what he is doing or I would not buy fish there. I know that is easy to say, and the store may not care enough about your business to waste their time explaining. Was this not the store you said earlier you did not like because of how they kept their fish, which was why you thought of going elsewhere to replace the barbs? More red flags.

If he is changing parameters this much, by using some chemicals, that in itself is harming the fish and weakening them.

From what I have read also its not just about what the species prefers, its about what they were raised in(within reason of course)? Lets say they were raised from birth in 7PH, surley thats now their preferred?

First, without knowing the source of the fish we don't know what water they may have been raised in. You are in the UK I presume; here in North America most of our fish come from hatcheries in SE Asia or some in the southern USA (unless wild caught obviously). TYhe Asian hatcheries are very soft water.

The question of "preferred" parameters for fish is complex. With a very few possible exceptions, each species of fish is going to be healthier and less stressed if it is maintained in water close to the habitat in which it evolved. There is a lot of differing opinion about subsequent rearing in different water, but one thing that does seem to be agreed on by the trustworthy biologists/ichthyologists in this hobby is that the preferred parameters are those of the habitat. No one has ever managed to prove otherwise with actual scientific evidence. The fact that a fish species seems to survive in different parameters does not prove it is healthy, better off, or worse off for that matter. Given all the disease issues with so many of these commercially-raised fish, one has to wonder if it cannot be traced at least partly to the issue of different parameters from those of the water in which nature has designed the fish to live. Wild caught fish do not have such issues. This should give one cause to think about parameters.

 

[Ben2522]

Hi All. So I dropped the temp to 25.5 C, Put the Coral rock in(no effect yet 24 hours, not sure how long to see any effect) No more deaths in 36 hours.

Perhaps it was the high temp coupled with PH change for them.I am still keen to over time and slowly raise the PH to be less acidic. Nothing drastic. Lets say 6.5 from the 5-5.5 it currently is(see what the rock does and adjust the size of it)

So taking on board the feedback on stocking. I wanted clown loach however that would be irresponsible I feel. What do people feel about swapping that out for Zebra loach, Half the size?

Then overall stocking for this 55gal over time: 20 tiger barb, 6 zebra loach. Do we think that is all I would get away with in this 55 gal tank? What if i added more plants? @Byron @JuiceBox52 @Colin_T

I appreciate your guys help with all of this.

 

[Colin_T]

I wouldn't do 20 tiger barbs, maybe 10-15 tiger barbs and another type of barb or tetra.

Zebra loaches can be territorial and fight all the time. Yoyo or dwarf loaches would probably be ok and you could have 10 of them. They would probably live in the aircraft and come out at night or during feeding time.

More plants always help.

 

[Ben2522]

I wouldn't do 20 tiger barbs, maybe 10-15 tiger barbs and another type of barb or tetra.

Zebra loaches can be territorial and fight all the time. Yoyo or dwarf loaches would probably be ok and you could have 10 of them. They would probably live in the aircraft and come out at night or during feeding time.

More plants always help.

Hi Colin. Ok. so lets say 15 tiger barbs, 6 gold golden barbs(or 10?) 6 of one of these loaches?

Why do the Zebras fight all the time? Everything I read says they are peaceful same as Yo Yo? Have you had Zebras before?

 

[Colin_T]

All the zebra loaches I have had rip hell out of each other. They were fine on their own but never got on with each other or other loaches.

If you get gold barbs, get the pH around 7.0. I found they do better in neutral to slightly alkaline water than in acid water. Other people might have different experiences with them and pH but I found they were less nervous in neutral water than in acid water.

 

[Byron]

I think you two are thinking of different species when you use the common name "Zebra" loach. I do not like using common names for this reason, though sometimes they are faster but only if there is no uncertainty over what species they refer to.

Botia striata is a species that I first encountered as Zebra Loach, and this is one common name for this species used by Loaches Online. This is a very peaceful species for a loach, and a group of five (or more) should do well with peaceful upper fish. You need lots of chunks of wood, preferably something like Malaysian Driftwood, chunks with crevices and tunnels. Photo of this fish below.

There is another species that for the life of me I cannot now think of, that came up in a couple threads some time back as "Zebra" loach, and it is indeed a rough customer. I suspect this is the fish Colin is thinking of; wish I could remember the name.

The Yo Yo Loach was mentioned...this can work, but sometimes this fish gets a bit feisty. The name/species is confusing, but before I sort that out, let me say that a better choice in a very similarly-patterned botine loach is Botia kubotai. Also a photo below of this beauty. Now to the "Yo Yo" for those interested.

The true species is Botia almorhae, not B. lohachata as is often encountered in the literature. This commonly-available loach may be seen under several common names including Reticulated loach, Lohachata Botia, Pakistani Loach, Almorha Loach and Yo Yo Loach probably being the most common. The latter, coined by Ken Childs of Dolphin International fish importers in Los Angeles, comes from the pattern on the fish's side resembling a series of brown "Y" and white "O" markings which is more discernible in young fish.

The exact species name of this fish is still uncertain. Originally it was deemed to be Botia lohachata, the name assigned by B.L. Chaudhuri in 1912, and it is still widely seen under this name. Botia is derived from an Asian word for soldier or warrior. In the early 1990's it was suggested that this species epithet was a synonym for Botia almorhae, the true species, which had been described in 1831 by J.E. Gray. Dr. Maurice Kottelat (2004), an acknowledged authority on this family, assigned the name B. lohachata as a synonym of B. almorhae and not a distinct species in his major revision of the genus which he separated into seven genera. More recently, Kottelat (2012) and several other ichthyologists have accepted B. lohachata as a distinct species.

Steven Grant (2007) has proposed that B. almorhae may in fact consist of five distinct but closely-related species:
Botia almorhae Gray, 1831
Botia birdi Chaudhuri, 1909
Botia lohachata Chaudhuri 1912
Botia sp. "Kosi", possibly a variant of B. almorhae
Botia sp. "Teesta", possibly a variant of B. almorhae

The striking similarity in pattern among these fish certainly makes this feasible; the authoratative Catalog of Fishes (Eschmeyer) of the California Academy of Sciences--Ichthyology has accepted the validity of the first three distinct species. The authors of Loaches Online accept B. almorhae as the species of the subject fish. The occurrence in Pakistan is restricted to the species B. birdi described by Chaudhuri in 1909.